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Posted: 1/10/2005 5:34:33 AM EDT
[rant mode]

Why are these little bits and peices used to mount optics so freaking expensive?  A GG&G cantilevel Aimpoint mount is $212he

Jeez, a couple bucks worth of alluminum alloy, a few minutes on the CNC, send it out to be anodized, and then sell it at like 5000% profit WTF
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 6:11:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Danner130:
[rant mode]

Why are these little bits and peices used to mount optics so freaking expensive?  A GG&G cantilevel Aimpoint mount is $212

Even the cheap stuff is $100+

Jeez, a couple bucks worth of alluminum alloy, a few minutes on the CNC, send it out to be anodized, and then sell it at like 5000% profit WTF

[/rant mode]




$212.00 is very excessive! For others makers, consider the cost of a building/s, heat lights, wages, taxes, CNC machine costs, support equipment, engineering, set up time, fixtures, advertisment costs, packaging, quality control, (optional with some), travel, phones, fax machines, computers, accountants, scrap, brochure printing, stocking, wharehousing, etc.
I will be the first to buy your first product that is good and is very inexpensive when you figure out how to eliminate all those costs that allow you to sell for 5000 percent less than other makers  
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:04:06 AM EDT
YHM prices is very good.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:33:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Timanator:
YHM prices is very good.




yhm doesnt make an aimpoint mount



but +1 on yhm products and high cost mounts  
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:16:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:20:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 9:21:30 AM EDT by Lancelot]
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! THE END IS HERE!!

GRANT AND JACK AGREE ON SOMETHING!!!
GRANT AND JACK AGREE ON SOMETHING!!!




Wow that's prett cool actually.


.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:32:03 AM EDT
Sorry, I don't buy that argument.  Look at Kel-Tec, they make the SU-16, a whole .223 rifle with all kinds of molds and bits an pieces, a barrel, scews nuts washers, etc. etc. and sell the whole she-bang for $440 (with dealer profit built in).  No way, NO WAY, these accessoriy manufacturers aren't ripping us off.  I suspect it starts in the government.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:39:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 9:40:40 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:43:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:46:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Danner130:
Sorry, I don't buy that argument.  Look at Kel-Tec, they make the SU-16, a whole .223 rifle with all kinds of molds and bits an pieces, a barrel, scews nuts washers, etc. etc. and sell the whole she-bang for $440 (with dealer profit built in).  No way, NO WAY, these accessoriy manufacturers aren't ripping us off.  I suspect it starts in the government.  i.e government contract proces




Keltec is shit, they need to take that Made in USA crap off those guns. What a disgrace.

As for CNC 's and initial costs, unless they start to cast the parts, the price cant go down too far.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 1:17:54 PM EDT
If anyone wants to see how much it cost EXACTLY.  Go here and design one yourself.

EMachineShop
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 5:27:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Danner130:
Sorry, I don't buy that argument.  Look at Kel-Tec, they make the SU-16, a whole .223 rifle with all kinds of molds and bits an pieces, a barrel, scews nuts washers, etc. etc. and sell the whole she-bang for $440 (with dealer profit built in).  No way, NO WAY, these accessoriy manufacturers aren't ripping us off.  I suspect it starts in the government.  i.e government contract proces






i have shot this since my friend owns one, he only paid like $250 and after i shot it i think he got ripped off!. the thing is crap.

oh and the 9mm is also crap
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 6:29:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 6:38:50 PM EDT by Boom]
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 6:44:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 6:45:23 PM EDT by Duffy]
Ah who cares who 3rdtk is, he provides a lot of info and is in my opinion a valuable source for technical detail.  If he indeed is Mr. Swan, then we all should take off our hats in a gesture of respect and gratitude for what he's done.

But to get back on topic, the companies also need to make money to finance the design, testing, and marketing of new product.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 6:56:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Duffy:
Ah who cares who 3rdtk is, he provides a lot of info and is in my opinion a valuable source for technical detail.  If he indeed is Mr. Swan, then we all should take off our hats in a gesture of respect and gratitude for what he's done.

But to get back on topic, the companies also need to make money to finance the design, testing, and marketing of new product.



Agreed!
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 7:00:15 PM EDT
Well here is my 2 cents.Yeah stuff is really expensive,BUT...If companys didnt make a good profit than we would not be able to by the awsome parts that are available to us now because no one would be in business to make them.The people that never been in business for them self dont relize how much companys need to sell to make enough profit to keep things  going.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 7:01:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:34:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:40:54 PM EDT
The problem is that even if someone did release a mount that blew all the others out of the water, it wouldnt sell unless it was priced similarly.  otherwise the majority of buyers would consider it junk and thus not eligible for flavor of the week status.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:44:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom:

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:

$212.00 is very excessive! For others makers, consider the cost of a building/s, heat lights, wages, taxes, CNC machine costs, support equipment, engineering, set up time, fixtures, advertisment costs, packaging, quality control, (optional with some), travel, phones, fax machines, computers, accountants, scrap, brochure printing, stocking, wharehousing, etc.
I will be the first to buy your first product that is good and is very inexpensive when you figure out how to eliminate all those costs that allow you to sell for 5000 percent less than other makers  



Well you proved it! Only Dick Swan would have thought of the above. Either that or your someone who works really really close to Dick Swan. Man I must say it is pretty sad you hang out here as much as you do, if I had millions I would be sitting on a beach far far away from here. I also would not give a rats ass what others said about my products.

Anyway, Dick you need to come out with some new designs, well done on the new website, about fing time. When are you going to redesign the 23 so it takes normal foregrips? I hate the AR15 grip design it really sucks. You know if you could put a KAC type grip on the 23 you would sell a boat load. I would buy 3 right off the bat.  OK rant mode off.

I do like most of your products, but we need some new designs. I know you can come up with some new stuff, do you need some new ideas? Thx for the Arms 40 it is my favorite. You need to work on the 22M68 its really starting to chap my ass. Hmmm what else? Oh how about a 22 that is 1" not 30mm. I would buy that for my flashlites.

I'll think of more later.  



Thank you, now send me any money direct to a post office box for any ARMS products you buy
I think that Mr. Swan would have just shrugged at how little the new guy knows about manufacturing. I think I did a poor job of describing what he must pay, as patenting costs and protection are horendous. I wonder if the Chinese have product (knock off's) liability insurance, or workmans comp expenses? LOL                                                                                                             Anyone that works with the various products and companies that make them, especially those who are suppliers to goverment programs, knows what they all have to do, apposed to after market
things. Even the after market guys have costs that the poster hasn't realiized that I listed are high to varying degree's.
Jack


Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:48:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:58:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 8:59:18 PM EDT by TopCrest]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By TopCrest:
The problem is that even if someone did release a mount that blew all the others out of the water, it wouldnt sell unless it was priced similarly.  otherwise the majority of buyers would consider it junk and thus not eligible for flavor of the week status.




Theory doesnt hold water.   GG&G, PRI and Knights have been around quite awhile and are SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than the ARMS or LaRue mounts, of which the LaRue is the newest on the market.



must be the cynic in me coming out

ETA:  I meant the $40 range as mentioned a bit earlier
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:58:46 PM EDT
MY rant isn't so much the godawful high prices..I understand them, even if I don't like them.  My complaint is the fact that there are products out there without a clear purpose that are still expensive.  

Example:  The RRA tactical carry handle that sits on my flattop, seemed like a good idea even if it was awful close to two bills retail, but once you HAVE one, WTF are you going to put on it?  I have tried 4 different dots [optima, adco 1", accudot 30mm, and BSA 50mm] and none allow the ironsights to be used.  Mounting a standard scope is also an excercise in frustration due to the combination of eye relief, scope ring height and scope zoom and objective clearance requirements.  My best option, it seems is to "store this odd mount on the top shelf of the safe, and buy something else..ugh.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:02:16 PM EDT
ARMS and KAC have been around a lot longer than the others, and are both high volume makers do to military contracts, thus they have an advantage in several area's. R&D, engineering, high tech production lines, gov't approved QC, and reputation based on years of performance.
Jack
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:10:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By barrysuperhawk:
MY rant isn't so much the godawful high prices..I understand them, even if I don't like them.  My complaint is the fact that there are products out there without a clear purpose that are still expensive.  

Example:  The RRA tactical carry handle that sits on my flattop, seemed like a good idea even if it was awful close to two bills retail, but once you HAVE one, WTF are you going to put on it?  I have tried 4 different dots [optima, adco 1", accudot 30mm, and BSA 50mm] and none allow the ironsights to be used.  Mounting a standard scope is also an excercise in frustration due to the combination of eye relief, scope ring height and scope zoom and objective clearance requirements.  My best option, it seems is to "store this odd mount on the top shelf of the safe, and buy something else..ugh.



Well, why did you buy something like that, is all I can think of, maybe the word tacticle?To me, you sound like the guy who was asked about that god awfull stupid tatto, and he said it seemed like a good idea the time. LOL  Can't blame the tatto artist, nor the industry for bad judgement.
Jack
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:13:40 PM EDT
Im avoiding alot of it due to the cost here.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 6:16:27 AM EDT
Jack's just been cleaning up in this thread.  You go Dude!
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:44:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
Jack's just been cleaning up in this thread.  You go Dude!



+1

I realize the points he brought up sometimes, and others times I forget and just feel frustrated that it takes me so long to save for the things I want.  Thanks Jack for putting things back into perspective, that makes me not mind spending top dollar on products that really are worth it.  

ps-I don't give a shit if he is Dick Swan, I don't see why everyone always brings that up (did I miss something before I joined the board?)...ARMS does make some great things, so I'd say Dick Swan is the man.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:57:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By barrysuperhawk:
My best option, it seems is to "store this odd mount on the top shelf of the safe, and buy something else..ugh.

Grab a hacksaw and get rid of the rail section so you can mount an Aimpoint or EOtech directly to the rail in front of your new detachable BUIS.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 5:09:31 PM EDT
Wow, $200. bucks for a detachable "tacticle" carry handle. For that kind of money, ie: instead of (two worthess carry handles) you could have bought a SIR #50 like I did, and have money left over to put towards a folding rear sight. The thing to do now untill you figure out what next, has been well advised, get a hack saw and make yourself a rear sight from that "tacticle"thing.
Jack  
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 5:39:55 PM EDT
Quality costs money.  That does not mean that everything expensive is wort it, or that there is not some quality stuff that is not over priced.  But if you want something that is well thought out, built with quality materials by people who know and care what they are doing, built to careful tolerances , with good quality control, and the mistakes discarded or recycled, not shipped with the rest, you are going to have to pay for it.  

I'm glad Grant found one of the 3rdtks that he can get along with.  I prefer the "good shootin-jack" 3rdtk the best, but this one is ok.  There was one a year and a half ago who wasn't really on top of things.  
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 5:57:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 5:59:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 5:59:53 PM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:02:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 8:03:30 PM EDT by Onslaught]

Example: The RRA tactical carry handle that sits on my flattop, seemed like a good idea even if it was awful close to two bills retail, but once you HAVE one, WTF are you going to put on it?

Yep, since you already OWN it, just follow these directions from the Maryland AR15 shooter's site and turn it into a "no extra cost" super cool, uber-tactical BUIS...  The directions are actually how to chop a carry handle, but it works the same for the tactical carry handle...  
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:09:01 PM EDT
Demand/need/want = high prices, everything AR is expensive because we are in a class of our own.
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