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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/21/2006 10:21:26 AM EDT
Just curious if it's worth the time What benefits would i see getting a Phantom?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:23:57 AM EDT
Slightly reduced flash and cool factor.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:26:23 AM EDT
I would not call the reduction in flash slight. It is a major reduction in flash, especially in shorter barrels.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:42:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
I would not call the reduction in flash slight. It is a major reduction in flash, especially in shorter barrels.



very major in reduction. shingaling I don't believe you have ever witnessed the flash from them, there's a night and day change also the 5c2 does a major job of keeping your muzzle down
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:49:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 10:49:42 AM EDT by DK-Prof]
For a 20" barrel my impression is that the A2 does a pretty decent job, especially with ammo other than XM193 and others that might be particularly bright. I wouldn't bother with a Phantom on a 20" myself.

For 16" barrels or shorter, IF you think you might possibly use it for home defense, or zombie invasions, etc - then a phantom can start to make a significant difference.

For a short barrel, like my 10.25" barrel - the advantage of the phantom over an A2 is phenomenal.

Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:58:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
For a 20" barrel my impression is that the A2 does a pretty decent job, especially with ammo other than XM193 and others that might be particularly bright. I wouldn't bother with a Phantom on a 20" myself.

For 16" barrels or shorter, IF you think you might possibly use it for home defense, or zombie invasions, etc - then a phantom can start to make a significant difference.

For a short barrel, like my 10.25" barrel - the advantage of the phantom over an A2 is phenomenal.




Forgot to specify that it's a 16" M4.

And I like the flash They don't work as comp/brakes do they?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:07:52 AM EDT
the 5c series has the close bottom which imo slightly reduce muzzle rise along with no dust kick up and suppressed flash, i would swap it.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:16:02 AM EDT
I would NOT bother on a 16" gun. The difference in flash on that barrel length is only noticeable (to me at least) when using shitty ammo like wolf. I would consider it in 14.5, and it would be mandatory on a 11.5 or shorter, for me.

No compensating effect. If you ever shoot prone, get the closed bottom model.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:16:44 AM EDT
Also, if you get a Phantom that has "teeth" you can use your rifle as a cattle prong.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:20:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I would NOT bother on a 16" gun.



Neither would I. I wouldn't want the extra length.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:25:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 11:29:01 AM EDT by wildearp]

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
Just curious if it's worth the time What benefits would i see getting a Phantom?



These are extremely effective FS for night time/dusk shooting. Check my advert. in the used equip EE and your decision should be much easier.

1/4" extra length? Bah! I added 6" of extra length (Gem-tech)

.223 doesn't need 'compensating'. I still have a 5C1 on my 9mm that doesn't need FS. I just wanted it for a contact-type party favor.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:27:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I would NOT bother on a 16" gun.



Neither would I. I wouldn't want the extra length.



whatever, it's a big improvment on my 20"
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:29:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I would NOT bother on a 16" gun. The difference in flash on that barrel length is only noticeable (to me at least) when using shitty ammo like wolf. I would consider it in 14.5, and it would be mandatory on a 11.5 or shorter, for me.

No compensating effect. If you ever shoot prone, get the closed bottom model.



the phantom 5c2 is a comp/flash hider and the diff in flash on a 20" is noticeable
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:29:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 11:31:15 AM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]

Originally Posted By M4-guy:
Also, if you get phantom that has "teeth" you can use your rifle as a cattle prong.



Yeah I saw that. Interested me

ETA - It's really stupid question time again. What's so harmful about the flash that you want as little as possible? Is it really THAT bright?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:38:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I would NOT bother on a 16" gun. The difference in flash on that barrel length is only noticeable (to me at least) when using shitty ammo like wolf. I would consider it in 14.5, and it would be mandatory on a 11.5 or shorter, for me.

No compensating effect. If you ever shoot prone, get the closed bottom model.



the phantom 5c2 is a comp/flash hider and the diff in flash on a 20" is noticeable



A compensating effect? I never noticed a difference. Very few people say they feel a difference.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:51:24 AM EDT
yes it makes a diff.....I think I like the vortex better though.....but I went back to my A2 because on entry I keep knocking my mussel against the doors...I could have gotten used to it but I just didn’t feel like it....but I would go with a vortex over the phantom I’ve used both in low/no light and the vortex just works better
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 12:14:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rsilvers:



A2 FS



Phantom FS


New Flash Suppressor Tests thread link
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 12:27:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 12:33:15 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
Originally Posted By rsilvers:


www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0759_A2.sized.jpg
A2 FS


www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0761_Phantom.sized.jpg
Phantom FS


New Flash Suppressor Tests thread link



Thanks for posting the link! I was looking for it, but was too stupid to find it.

Yeah - that really shows what a remarkable difference it can make on the short barrels like 11.5" and shorter. I guess the A1/A2 designs were never really intended for the short barrels.


The actual photos of tests also seem to illustate two things quite clearly.

1. Ammo can make a huge difference, and XM193 really does generate a much larger flash than some other ammo.

2. The Phantom and Vortex seem to be equally good at flash supression for most barrel lengths (certainly at 14.5 and 16, with maybe a slight difference at 11.5).
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 12:27:43 PM EDT
From my 14.5" bbl with an older 5-slot Phantom, I see a spark or 2 every few rounds (using Q3131A)
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 12:38:24 PM EDT
I get fireballs from hell from my 14 1/2s with the Izzy. Especially with XM193 & Q3131. I would love to calm down the flash. My 16s and 20s with the A2s have no noticeable flash. What's up with the Izzy?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 4:58:31 PM EDT
Pics of my YHM Phantom FH/comp with the sealed bottom and "aggressive" end, it replaced the A1 Birdcage FH that was originally on there.









I like it, and will put another on my "M4" build in the future.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:15:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 5:16:05 PM EDT by PRAIRIERAT]
markm is right, anything longer than an A2 on a 16" M4 cut barrel just doesn't look right.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:49:43 PM EDT


ETA - It's really stupid question time again. What's so harmful about the flash that you want as little as possible? Is it really THAT bright?

Oh other than it ruining your night vision when you need it most........
look at those pics and just imagine.

Mike
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:02:08 PM EDT
No.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:05:45 PM EDT
If you can see the flash....so can the bad guys...or what ever!hug.gif
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:00:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSTOCK:
I get fireballs from hell from my 14 1/2s with the Izzy. Especially with XM193 & Q3131. I would love to calm down the flash. My 16s and 20s with the A2s have no noticeable flash. What's up with the Izzy?



To answer your question. The Izzy sucks. From what I've seen, you might as well have no FS on the rifle. The Izzy's do not work AT ALL. Get a Phantom.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:39:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By S-1:

Originally Posted By BSTOCK:
I get fireballs from hell from my 14 1/2s with the Izzy. Especially with XM193 & Q3131. I would love to calm down the flash. My 16s and 20s with the A2s have no noticeable flash. What's up with the Izzy?



To answer your question. The Izzy sucks. From what I've seen, you might as well have no FS on the rifle. The Izzy's do not work AT ALL. Get a Phantom.



Since the Izzy is permanently attached I guess it would be gunsmith time if I wanted to change it. What were the people at BM thinking of ?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:42:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stanze:
Pics of my YHM Phantom FH/comp with the sealed bottom and "aggressive" end, it replaced the A1 Birdcage FH that was originally on there.

img96.imageshack.us/img96/3341/phan10ww.jpg

img96.imageshack.us/img96/2563/phan20er.jpg

img96.imageshack.us/img96/2563/phan20er.jpg

img96.imageshack.us/img96/485/phan46na.jpg

I like it, and will put another on my "M4" build in the future.




Nice pics.

I have a Phantom with the closed slot on my 10" SBR, but I actually have the closed slot on top, since I don't really think it contributes to muzzle flip, and think it is more likely that it will "redicrect" any errant sparks sideways or down, as opposed to up inside my field of vision.

I am either retarded, or a genius!



When I used to have an A2 on there, I could CLEARLY see a muzzle flash, even sometimes during daylight. The Phantom completely eliminated that.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:24:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:



I am either retarded, or a genius!




Poll coming?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:32:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 9:33:50 PM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
Originally Posted By rsilvers:


www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0759_A2.sized.jpg
A2 FS


www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0761_Phantom.sized.jpg
Phantom FS


New Flash Suppressor Tests thread link



Well, since he's talking about the 16" barrels, these pics would probably be more on-topic from that same thread.

All pics property of rsilvers.





As you can see, as the barrel gets longer, the signifigance of the FH diminishes as they all do a decent job.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:20:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 10:21:07 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Those last 2 pics look like they would hurt
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:12:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
Originally Posted By rsilvers:

www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0759_A2.sized.jpg
A2 FS

www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0761_Phantom.sized.jpg
Phantom FS

New Flash Suppressor Tests thread link



Well, since he's talking about the 16" barrels, these pics would probably be more on-topic from that same thread.

All pics property of rsilvers.

www.photomosaic.com/gns/16-inch-XM193ed.jpg

As you can see, as the barrel gets longer, the signifigance of the FH diminishes as they all do a decent job.

WIZZO


The main purpose of my post was to post rsilvers thread link so they could look at the photos of different FS.

You stated from the photos that you posted that "as they all do a decent job", It's clear that the Phantom and Vortex showed a very significant improvement in performance compared with the A2 FS.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:52:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
Originally Posted By rsilvers:

www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0759_A2.sized.jpg
A2 FS

www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0761_Phantom.sized.jpg
Phantom FS

New Flash Suppressor Tests thread link



Well, since he's talking about the 16" barrels, these pics would probably be more on-topic from that same thread.

All pics property of rsilvers.

www.photomosaic.com/gns/16-inch-XM193ed.jpg

As you can see, as the barrel gets longer, the signifigance of the FH diminishes as they all do a decent job.

WIZZO


The main purpose of my post was to post rsilvers thread link so they could look at the photos of different FS.

You stated from the photos that you posted that "as they all do a decent job", It's clear that the Phantom and Vortex showed a very significant improvement in performance compared with the A2 FS.



SNAP
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:44:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
Originally Posted By rsilvers:


www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0759_A2.sized.jpg
A2 FS


www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0761_Phantom.sized.jpg
Phantom FS


New Flash Suppressor Tests thread link



Well, since he's talking about the 16" barrels, these pics would probably be more on-topic from that same thread.

All pics property of rsilvers.

www.photomosaic.com/gns/16-inch-XM193ed.jpg



As you can see, as the barrel gets longer, the significance of the FH diminishes as they all do a decent job.

WIZZO



Why in Heavens name would our military chiefs not invest the extra $2/per gun it took to outfit our Armed Forces with a better flash suppressor?

If those pix are genuine (a high-speed super slow-mo video would be a better measure) the difference is dramatic - and conceivably life-saving.



Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:24:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
Originally Posted By rsilvers:


www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0759_A2.sized.jpg
A2 FS


www.silencertests.com/albums/Noveske/IMG_0761_Phantom.sized.jpg
Phantom FS


New Flash Suppressor Tests thread link



Well, since he's talking about the 16" barrels, these pics would probably be more on-topic from that same thread.

All pics property of rsilvers.

www.photomosaic.com/gns/16-inch-XM193ed.jpg



As you can see, as the barrel gets longer, the significance of the FH diminishes as they all do a decent job.

WIZZO



Why in Heavens name would our military chiefs not invest the extra $2/per gun it took to outfit our Armed Forces with a better flash suppressor?

If those pix are genuine (a high-speed super slow-mo video would be a better measure) the difference is dramatic - and conceivably life-saving.







2 bucks times how many rifle, money vs the need. They don't feel the extra money is worth the need
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:19:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I would NOT bother on a 16" gun. The difference in flash on that barrel length is only noticeable (to me at least) when using shitty ammo like wolf. I would consider it in 14.5, and it would be mandatory on a 11.5 or shorter, for me.

No compensating effect. If you ever shoot prone, get the closed bottom model.



the phantom 5c2 is a comp/flash hider and the diff in flash on a 20" is noticeable



A compensating effect? I never noticed a difference. Very few people say they feel a difference.



He has extaoridnary feeling ability! Research has proven this!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:56:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
He has extaoridnary feeling ability! Research has proven this!



whatever it's a comp, it's designed for it and yes there is a difference and if you can't tell I don't give a fuck, but don't fuck with me about it
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:21:25 AM EDT
I'm pretty well convinced by now that the A2 flash suppressor has a solid bottom only to alleviate the dust signature during prone firing in the field. With it's open front and huge expansion chamber it's architecture is nothing like an efficient compensator, so if it does have some compensating effect it is minimal and probably not enough to feel. The term compensator was probably applied as a sales pitch.

We should ask Coldblue....
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:33:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I'm pretty well convinced by now that the A2 flash suppressor has a solid bottom only to alleviate the dust signature during prone firing in the field. With it's open front and huge expansion chamber it's architecture is nothing like an efficient compensator, so if it does have some compensating effect it is minimal and probably not enough to feel. The term compensator was probably applied as a sales pitch.

We should ask Coldblue....




Originally Posted By coldblue:

Originally Posted By Cato:
Is it rated by the ATF as a "comp" or is it just a KAC designation?



Since our (KAC) "QD" Compensator follows the basic form and funtion of the A2 type MC, we call it a Compensator.
When we (then the USMC) replaced the M16A1 Flash Suppressor in 1983 with the A2 style, it was because we were able to measure an increased degree of muzzle compensation with the new "flash suppressor" versus the A1's. So technically I felt that even though it was obviously suppressing muzzle flash, it was also now providing a degreee of muzzle control that was not present formerly. So we gave it that "spin."
That being said, I will be the first to admit that the A2 Compensator provides but a small degree of additional control, however, back in those days every "more effiecent muzzle compensator" we looked at did not suppress the muzzzle flash as well as he A1's--and some made it much worse, and suppresing the flash "equal to or better" was our criteria.
And Wes is correct up above, if you want a perfectly round and concentric "end thing" on your barrel, there is nothing on the planet like our (KAC) M4 "QD" Muzzle Compensator.



www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=274647
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:38:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By markm:
He has extaoridnary feeling ability! Research has proven this!



whatever it's a comp, it's designed for it and yes there is a difference and if you can't tell I don't give a fuck, but don't fuck with me about it



You sure are an ASSHOLE! Must be nice going thru life with such a lovely attitude.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:43:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I'm pretty well convinced by now that the A2 flash suppressor has a solid bottom only to alleviate the dust signature during prone firing in the field. With it's open front and huge expansion chamber it's architecture is nothing like an efficient compensator, so if it does have some compensating effect it is minimal and probably not enough to feel. The term compensator was probably applied as a sales pitch.

We should ask Coldblue....



I'm not sure why the A2 has no cuts on the bottom but, the lack of cuts on the bottom does absolutely nothing for dust signature reduction. Anyone who has shot in the dust/dirt of the desert can vouch for this. The dust kicks up from 4-6 feet in front of the muzzle depending on the soil conditions.

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:50:55 AM EDT
Yes the dust still kicks up with an A2, and with the Phantom closed bottom. And it makes like a blast crater effect about 3 or 4 feet out where the dirt is pushed away. I love the desert, but the dust sucks for shooting.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:59:20 AM EDT
Corporal_Chaos, thanks for that post. Very interesting.....

MarkM, the A2 does not eliminate dust signature, and I did not mean to imply that. I have yet to shoot any of my A1 equipped barrels in a dust-prone environment, but I have kicked up some dust with a vortex equipped barrel. It blasted a plume of dust up under the bottom port, and consequently had a larger dust signature than the A2 equipped gun.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:00:37 AM EDT
Dig it!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:12:51 AM EDT
That really would be an interesting test to see the results of.

Is there a difference in "dust singnature" or "muzzle rise" between a regular A1 and a closed-port A2, and between a regular Phantom and a closed-port phantom.

I have NEVER "felt" any difference in recoil or muzzle rise between versions of flash supressors with a closed port on the bottom, versus the all-round open one.


Has anyone else actually tested that? Did coldblue ever reference actual testing results?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:36:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Corporal_Chaos, thanks for that post. Very interesting.....

MarkM, the A2 does not eliminate dust signature, and I did not mean to imply that. I have yet to shoot any of my A1 equipped barrels in a dust-prone environment, but I have kicked up some dust with a vortex equipped barrel. It blasted a plume of dust up under the bottom port, and consequently had a larger dust signature than the A2 equipped gun.



I bought an A1 FH at a gunshot for my M4ger awhile back and went straight from the show to our farm to install/shoot it (including prone).

The first couple shots with the A1 blew shit up and right into my face whereas the A2 I had fired 5 minutes earlier did not.

For the compensating aspect of it, the only way to actually feel it is to shoot one, take it off and put the other on, and shoot that one, or have 2 identical rifles with both FHs on them. The difference is negligible, but there is a difference. The A2 does have a little bit of a compensating effect, but it's nothing to write home about.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:40:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 303_enfield:
If you can see the flash....so can the bad guys...or what ever!


lol i think that was some where in there with tracers working both ways
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