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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 2/25/2006 11:04:25 AM EDT
i'm finishing up a 0% lower, how important is it to get it anodized, or can i just duracoat it?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 12:00:34 PM EDT
Anodizing a bare receiver is very important, as it strengthens the aluminum's surface.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:07:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:55:58 AM EDT
I understand that it strengthens the surface which i can understand for areas exposed to moving parts, but with a lower all there is, is the pin's, and i'm thinking of pressing stainless steel bushings there. i've seen alot of m16's missing alot of anido, with nothing left in the takedown pin area's. I'm also limmeted on funds, and everywhere i look, people are charging way to much to anodize. I know i can do it at home, but that again is not a hard coat anodization.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:11:09 AM EDT
Check out the thread below:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=14&t=267416

The company that did the anodizing charges $50 to do a lower receiver.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:39:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Check out the thread below:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=14&t=267416

The company that did the anodizing charges $50 to do a lower receiver.



NO! That place absolutely CANNOT annodize mrhylais's lower!!!!

He made it from a 0%. In other words, his lower has NO serial number or is not required to have any serial number. Again, he made the rifle from scratch, at home, & he persobally did the machine work.

It can NEVER be transferred to anyone (with certain exceptions not relevant here) - so unless he stands there in person while the anodize it, then its a transfer.

Good news is that home anodizing is not that hard to do. Moreover, I have several castings & forgings that were NEVER anodized & function fine. Its not needed. FOr info on home setups, see www.roderuscustom.tzo.com
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:13:21 AM EDT
7075T6 aluminum is very hard. I don't think it needs to be annodized. The main wear point is the hammer pin hole. Every time the rifle is fired the pin can rotate about 90 degrees is each direction. The pin is under some pressure from the spring. However, it is easy to keep the pin from rotating by putting some blue Loctite at the pin-receiver joint on the outside. This will keep the pin in place. You can do the same thing with the trigger pin, but it is under a lot less pressure.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 9:19:53 AM EDT
It is not the spring pressure on the hammer that wears pin holes - it is the violent 'smack' the hammer takes every time the weapon fires.

If you started with a properly heat treated 7075 forging, you have little to worry about. A good solid film lube in the holes will take care of the friction wear. Anodizing will only act as a wear surface - it does not add to the tensile strength of the aluminum under it.

It IS possible to do hard anodizing at home. Or, as someone already suggested you could take it to an anodizing shop & wait for it - I have done this with a couple of MG's.

If you do decide to bush the pin holes, make sure you us a flanged bushing & install it from the inside. Or make other suitable arrangements for mechanical retention. Normally, I bore damaged holes to .281, and make the bushings with a .312 x .020 flange. A standard back-spotfacer can be used to make the .020 recess for the flange. A cylindrical bushing will eventually walk out of the receiver - BTDT.


Lem
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:58:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:11:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CBR900:
It can NEVER be transferred to anyone (with certain exceptions not relevant here) - so unless he stands there in person while the anodize it, then its a transfer.



All I can say is that I sent my M16 out of state for a refinish, and didn't use a Form 5. Therefore no transfer took place in my case either. Who knows?
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:27:09 PM EDT
What about using the anti-walk pins instead of anodizing. Would that be an option for us doing 80% lowers instead of anodizing. I do plan on anodizing mine but always wondered it they would be a way around it.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:09:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 8:11:46 PM EDT by CBR900]

Originally Posted By anotherred:
What about using the anti-walk pins instead of anodizing. Would that be an option for us doing 80% lowers instead of anodizing. I do plan on anodizing mine but always wondered it they would be a way around it.



The anti-walk pins will not have any effect on wear reagardless of surface finish.

Take a look at ChuckD's & Lem's replies above. Your lower started as 0%. If its a forging, its either 6061 T-6 or 7075 T6 (I have seen both) and should be sufficiently hard for your use. If you are still woried, follow the link I gave you & anodize it at home.

stickman wrote: "I can see not needing it if you are one of the people that puts it away, or only shoot a few hundred rounds a month, but if you are the type of shooter that is firing a few thousand rounds a month, and have 20-30K through your weapon, thats a different story."

How many people on AR15.com actually shoot a few thousand rounds a month? Even assuming Wolf ammo & "a few thousand" meaning 2K, thats over $210 PER MONTH in ammo costs alone. Realistically, how many people here actually shoot 2000 rounds or more every single month? - unless somebody else is paying for your ammo & paying you to shoot it, then that is an unrealistic figure.

MrHylais - Just finish the 0% & go shoot. You will be fine.



And please post a pic or two of your work. Thanks. CBR
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:19:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CBR900:
It can NEVER be transferred to anyone (with certain exceptions not relevant here) - so unless he stands there in person while the anodize it, then its a transfer.



You are completely wrong. If his gun is legal then it is like any other gun. His gun receives no special status under law.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:53:38 PM EDT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By CBR900:
It can NEVER be transferred to anyone (with certain exceptions not relevant here) - so unless he stands there in person while the anodize it, then its a transfer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's silly ....... when I send my guns to S&W to have them refinish them.I am NOT transferring them!
That would require me to pay a transfer fee to get the guns back........and that has never happened !!

He is sending his AR to be worked on............NOT transfering ownership. The receiving FFL would just have to have a way to enter the Lower in his books. I am assuming the builder has "marked" his lower in some way to indicate ownership ???

JF.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 10:23:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 9:57:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sniper350:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By CBR900:
It can NEVER be transferred to anyone (with certain exceptions not relevant here) - so unless he stands there in person while the anodize it, then its a transfer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's silly ....... when I send my guns to S&W to have them refinish them.I am NOT transferring them!
That would require me to pay a transfer fee to get the guns back........and that has never happened !!

He is sending his AR to be worked on............NOT transfering ownership. The receiving FFL would just have to have a way to enter the Lower in his books. I am assuming the builder has "marked" his lower in some way to indicate ownership ???

JF.



Jetlag & sniper350: I don't think you understand the concept of building a LOWER from scratch. I.e. - he did not go through an FFL to buy this gun. He took a hunk of bare metal that arrived in the mail & machined it into a working AR-15.

I have "built" or machined several AR-15 lowers. They have NO serial number and I am NOT required to put one on those lowers.

So - do you understand the concept of transfer? Are you aware that a Gunsmith is required to have an FFL? Do you know what a bound book is? Are you aware that the FFL who receives the gun must enter it in the bound book & that they are subject to BATFE inspection? From your replies, apparently, you do not understand these concepts.

If you believe (as your posts suggest) that you can go around creating AR-15s from scratch & simply transfer them to whoever you want (with certain exceptions not relevant here), them I wish you luck. You will need a lot of luck to stay out of prison.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 10:44:25 AM EDT
CBR900, you can believe what you want, but there is no law against treating a homemade gun just like any other gun, which is what it is. If you believe otherwise you are welcome to post the relevant laws, codes, or ATF letters to back up your claims.

It's not as if you can't put a serial number on there to make the gunsmith happy about it. A couple years back I asked a very well respected pistol smith if he'd take on a 1911 I'd finished from 80% and he said sure.

Are you aware we live in a country where we are free to do as we want, except where it is spelled out in the law? There is no special treatment given to homemade guns under U.S. law, so they must be treated as any other gun would be.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 12:00:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CBR900:
How many people on AR15.com actually shoot a few thousand rounds a month? Even assuming Wolf ammo & "a few thousand" meaning 2K, thats over $210 PER MONTH in ammo costs alone. Realistically, how many people here actually shoot 2000 rounds or more every single month? - unless somebody else is paying for your ammo & paying you to shoot it, then that is an unrealistic figure.



I've seen mention of at least two members of this board who spend close to $20K of their own money on ammo each year -- and it's shot, not stored back.

Me on the other hand, I spend way under $500 a year.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 12:35:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 12:36:38 PM EDT by CBR900]

Originally Posted By Jetlag:
CBR900, you can believe what you want, but there is no law against treating a homemade gun just like any other gun, which is what it is. If you believe otherwise you are welcome to post the relevant laws, codes, or ATF letters to back up your claims.

It's not as if you can't put a serial number on there to make the gunsmith happy about it. A couple years back I asked a very well respected pistol smith if he'd take on a 1911 I'd finished from 80% and he said sure.

Are you aware we live in a country where we are free to do as we want, except where it is spelled out in the law? There is no special treatment given to homemade guns under U.S. law, so they must be treated as any other gun would be.



From your latest post, its clear to me that you do understand the concept of home built firearms. Moreover, the 80% 1911 is not the most common home made gun; the only sources being KTO, Tannery, Dlask and a few others like the Safari Arms 80% that I bought a few years back. Fair enough, we are both builders. And for that, you have my respect. I encourage everyone to build a firearm or two.

I'll also agree that as a practical matter (not a legal matter) if the work quality is sufficient to appear to an FFL taht the gun was made by a Title II Manufacturer, then it will be logged in w/ one of our made-up serial numbers & no will be the wiser. Again - that is as a practical matter.

However, I think we will simply have to disagree on one point you make: "There is no special treatment given to homemade guns under U.S. law" -

Well, consider this: what if I make an 80% into a completed gun with the intent to sell that one gun, and then I build it & sell it off as intended? Is that OK? I do not believe so. The home building exception is ONLY for "personal use" and "personal use" has been defined by BATFE as "not for transfer or sale to another". If I am wrong about that, I'd like to see the code section or batfe interpretation that states so.

In any event, we are in agreement over the value of completing 80% or 0% firearms. I also participate on www.roderuscustom.tzo.com

Regards,

CBR
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 1:47:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CBR900:
Well, consider this: what if I make an 80% into a completed gun with the intent to sell that one gun, and then I build it & sell it off as intended? Is that OK? I do not believe so. The home building exception is ONLY for "personal use" and "personal use" has been defined by BATFE as "not for transfer or sale to another". If I am wrong about that, I'd like to see the code section or batfe interpretation that states so.



If you make the gun with the intent to sell it or distribute then that falls under the definition of manufacturing. And as we know manufacturing without a license is a good way to go to jail. I agree that it is only legal to make a gun for your personal use, but after that there are no special rules regarding it other than the laws that apply to all firearms. The 'homemade' badge does not follow the gun around like a scarlet letter.

Roderus is a great place for home building. I'm sure if you bring this topic up there (it comes up now and then) you'll find my view is well shared.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 2:11:19 PM EDT
CBR900 -

Please read my post more carefully and you see where I talk about the FFL [ gunsmith ] recording the weapon [ Lower ] into his books upon receiving it. I understand the concept very well.

The problem you are having is using the word "Transferring" when describing the process of sending a gun to a gunsmith to have repairs performed. The weapon is not being transferred by legal definition from the BATF point of view. Transferring is the legal changing of the weapon's OWNERSHIP -- something that does not ocurr in the repair process we are talking about. I would hope we can agree on this simple fact ??

Yes - S&W Inc. does maintain an FFL license so they can legally receive weapons to be repaired or re-finished............. but in that process, the weapon IS NOT TRANSFERRED to them by legal definition-- meaning the gun never becomes their property. So as long as the person above uses an FFL to ship the weapon to another FFL holder that can do the anodization -- no laws are being broken that I can find. If you can point to a specific BATF ruling - I would be glad to read it and admit I have made a mistake. If you really want to be "picky" accurate ---- the RECEIVER of a weapon only needs to have the FFL ......... the SHIPPER [ citizen ] does NOT have to have an FFL to legally ship a gun !

As to the Status of the 0% or 80% lower -- only pertains to OWNERSHIP -- and as long as that doesn't change, you won't have any problems with BATF. Sending that gun to be anodized does not require any change in ownership status -- would you not agree ???


JF.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:45:56 PM EDT
Being the good federal law enforcement officer that i am, before i started this project i called some friends over at the BATF and asked what it was that i needed to do to make them, I decided to make two incase i screwed up one. after some joking around i finnaly found out that it needed no numbers or place of manufacture, and that i could never get rid of it, because if i did i would be ending up in the big house for a long time. Where ever i do get it plated at, if i get it plated i will be hand carrying them there to ease the leagailtys of it all. My forging are 7000 series from DSA, cheap at $20.00 a pop when you buy 2 or more. Since i have started a few of my fellow FLEO's are going to do their own also, its nice to help offset some of the tooling cost i have incured. I'm also considering the do it at home plating, but that is not as thick as i could get it done by a pro. This lower will be seeing alot of rounds, i plan on using it for EIC rifle competition, and earn the coveted distinguished rifleman badge for my uniform. Thats why i was thinking of sleaving the pin holes. The project has been alot of fun, so far, i will be taking the lowers in to a trophy shop for some engraving and some numbers. After talking to many of the local PD, they all got excited over no serial numbers, so i'm just going to advoid that whole sitiuation my self and put some numbers on. Even alot of FLEO's think handcuffs when i asked them what they would do.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 10:30:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By CBR900:
How many people on AR15.com actually shoot a few thousand rounds a month? Even assuming Wolf ammo & "a few thousand" meaning 2K, thats over $210 PER MONTH in ammo costs alone. Realistically, how many people here actually shoot 2000 rounds or more every single month? - unless somebody else is paying for your ammo & paying you to shoot it, then that is an unrealistic figure.



Are you serious? You think that number is high? Sorry, but I don't.

To get back on topic, how many rounds a month and what sort of wear do you see a non anodized lower dealing with? I agree with you that most people here aren't serious shooters in putting thousands of rounds down range, but there are plenty of those who do.



I agree, I go through about 500 rounds of centerfire per week. And anodizing is the only way to go for long term use. If you spend all the time making a receiver, at least finish it right .
Josh
StormWerkz
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:40:17 PM EDT
Sleeve the pin holes! I have wanted to try it but just have not gotten around to it.

I would still anodize it, hard anodize is .003" thick, but .0015 of it is penetration. This makes below the surface very hard and durable compared to bare T6. Aluminum is soft, I don't care what you call it. I have seen what happens to receivers that have been sand blasted and then duracoated and it is not pretty. They seemed to be very soft and scatched easily.

Just my .02

Be safe,

Lance

Certified Colt, Bushmaster, Glock and Sig Sauer Armorer
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:11:15 PM EDT
.....
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:49:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 12:31:29 PM EDT by pogo]
Holy thread hijack, Batman!

Man, the old fables that refuse to die. Homebuilding is a legal activity permitted by what is not illegal, and not what is permitted by legislation.

1) The ATF describes the distinction between MANUFACTURING and BUILDING. We build for ourselves, and manufacture for sale. We can build for ourselves, and sell later, as long as we do not build with the intent to sell. THAT is manufacturing. Once it is built, serial number or not (your choice - ATF RECOMMENDS it has one), it is treated as any other firearm. AND no, it does not mean it has to be buried with you or cannot be given to heirs.

EDIT: I mean "making," not "building." I got worked up and was rushed for time.

If this is wrong I will give a new manufactured stripped lower minus transfer fees to anyone who can produce a letter from the ATF technical branch stating this. And no, referencing 'friends' or blowhards like the tannery shop does not qualify.

2) There is no such thing as "80%" It is strictly a trade term. To the ATF it is either a firearm or it is not; a paperweight or a baby killing lead slinger. It is exactly like the term National Match - what we would call match-disqualifying crap, someone peddling it would call it national match.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:26:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pogo:
Holy thread hijack, Batman!

Man, the old fables that refuse to die. Homebuilding is a legal activity permitted by what is not illegal, and not what is permitted by legislation.

1) The ATF describes the distinction between MANUFACTURING and BUILDING. We build for ourselves, and manufacture for sale. We can build for ourselves, and sell later, as long as we do not build with the intent to sell. THAT is manufacturing. Once it is built, serial number or not (your choice - ATF RECOMMENDS it has one), it is treated as any other firearm. AND no, it does not mean it has to be buried with you or cannot be given to heirs.

If this is wrong I will give a new manufactured stripped lower minus transfer fees to anyone who can produce a letter from the ATF technical branch stating this. And no, referencing 'friends' or blowhards like the tannery shop does not qualify.

2) There is no such thing as "80%" It is strictly a trade term. To the ATF it is either a firearm or it is not; a paperweight or a baby killing lead slinger. It is exactly like the term National Match - what we would call match-disqualifying crap, someone peddling it would call it national match.


+1
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:05:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
For people who say anodozing isn't needed, I am very interested in how many rounds you have through your nonanodized lowers. I can see not needing it if you are one of the people that puts it away, or only shoot a few hundred rounds a month, but if you are the type of shooter that is firing a few thousand rounds a month, and have 20-30K through your weapon, thats a different story.

Comments about anodizing not creating a harder surface have me at a loss.

Taken from http://www.anodizing.org/faqs.html


The purpose of anodizing is to form a layer of aluminum oxide that will protect the aluminum beneath it. The aluminum oxide layer has much higher corrosion and abrasion resistance than aluminum.



Stickman
At one time I would have agreed but now I have to disagree with you on the anodizing. I’ve been a DOD employee for 6 + years and switched over to the armory about 9mnths ago.. We refinish 1000+ M16S a year and none are re anodized. After the rifles are stripped the upper and lower receivers are sandblasted down to the aluminum and gunkoted. The barrels and all the other steel parts are then parked, gauged and reassembled. Now I don’t have a round count on any of the rifles that are refinished but most of these rifles are basic training rifles that are A1s converted over to A2s and restamped. I know they have thousands upon thousands of rounds thru them and they are still going strong.
Now I’m not saying the anodizing is nice to have but I really don’t think anyone is going to see premature rifle failure from their rifle if it isn’t anodized. That’s my .02 anyway.

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