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Posted: 10/15/2004 1:53:22 AM EST
Would a newly manufactured stripped lower receiver purchased today, post AWB, be considered "No Ban", and thus be eligible for a build which includes "evil" features such as bayonet lug or collapsible stock, even if it were assembled after (or even long after) reenactment of a subsequent AWB (God forbid)? If so, shouldn't we all be stockpiling these no-ban lowers?

Or does the rifle need to be completely assembled prior to enactment of a ban in order to be considered "Pre Ban"?
And how would you prove when the rifle was assembled?

Are "post ban" rifles purchased during the AWB now eligible for conversion to "no ban"? Or are they forever banned from having, for instance, a collapsible stock? And what if a subsequent AWB were enacted, would it have to be changed back to a "post ban"?

Sorry this is getting convoluted, just trying to weigh my options and prepare for the future.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 2:20:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By Huckie:
Would a newly manufactured stripped lower receiver purchased today, post AWB, be considered "No Ban", and thus be eligible for a build which includes "evil" features such as bayonet lug or collapsible stock, even if it were assembled after (or even long after) reenactment of a subsequent AWB (God forbid)? If so, shouldn't we all be stockpiling these no-ban lowers?



If it is assembled now you are OK. If it is assembled after _another_ ban than it would not be. The best thing to do would be to add a cheap collapsible stock on to them. Remeber: CYA. Example: I live in CT and we have an AW Ban that pretty much mirrors the federal one. I still have to follow my state laws but if I moved to a free-er state, I could do what I want. If another ban were enacted and than I moved to a free-er state I would still be screwed because I didn't have a rifle with the evil options on it before I moved.


Or does the rifle need to be completely assembled prior to enactment of a ban in order to be considered "Pre Ban"?
And how would you prove when the rifle was assembled?



See above.


Are "post ban" rifles purchased during the AWB now eligible for conversion to "no ban"? Or are they forever banned from having, for instance, a collapsible stock? And what if a subsequent AWB were enacted, would it have to be changed back to a "post ban"?


There is no such thing as a Pre or Post Ban rifle anymore. Everything is now 'No Ban'. Of course you still have to follow local laws.


Sorry this is getting convoluted, just trying to weigh my options and prepare for the future.


Better to find out now than to find out after you can't do anything. Of course this is all thrown out the window if a new ban were to go into effect that is more restrictive.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 2:41:19 AM EST
Orionmkii,

One of the many, many reasons I moved from CT to NH this past spring!

So if I understand you correctly, I CAN put a collapsible stock on a rifle that was originally "post ban"?


Link Posted: 10/15/2004 2:52:17 AM EST
Everyone talk about the "next ban" as if we think it could possibly be the same parameters as the last. What if the "next ban" is the government saying, "ok america turn in your AR's, we'll give you the market price for them, they are now illegal." ? - Yes you can now install collapsible stocks and flashhiders on your rifle today, so long as you live in a non retricted state, but I say, do not buy to prepare for the next ban, vote to prevent one.

My opinion
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 3:03:30 AM EST
point taken
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:01:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By booniehat223:
Everyone talk about the "next ban" as if we think it could possibly be the same parameters as the last.

My personal feeling is the "next ban" is going to be the legislation in HR2038/S1035, "Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003", which will probably be changed from "2003" to "2005". I am sure it will appear the first week in January that congress is back in session.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:23:08 AM EST
What I mean is that everyone is taking on a false sense of security with the ban gone. People say, "when the ban comes back they won't be able to touch my gun I have now." Wake up people, they can write a law however they want. The judicial system can then interpret it how they want, and the executive branch can enforce it if they want. - provided that the people allow it to happen. You need to talk to your representatives, senators - write letters, and go and vote.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:30:23 AM EST
The next ban will outlaw all AR configurations, regardless of date of manufacture. There will be a period in which you can legally turn in your AR-style weapon, after which it will be a felony to have such a weapon, or parts of such a weaon in your possession, including ammunition. AR weapon props will be illegal as well because of the intimidation factor.

Your safest bet is to stay out of the AR game altogether.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:00:31 AM EST
I was talking to some of the gun dealers here in FL and the general opinon is that the next bill will probably not hurt AW's but all class 3 items. Just my 2 cents
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:32:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 6:34:41 AM EST by clubsoda22]

Originally Posted By signal20gsxr:
I was talking to some of the gun dealers here in FL and the general opinon is that the next bill will probably not hurt AW's but all class 3 items. Just my 2 cents



Ah, so they found something even more useless to regulate.

Why would you have to assemble the lower? Isn't the stripped lower that part that is considerd the firearm, therefore if it was produced before a ban like the 1994 AWB.....?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 7:36:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By signal20gsxr:
I was talking to some of the gun dealers here in FL and the general opinon is that the next bill will probably not hurt AW's but all class 3 items. Just my 2 cents



You know, that could be right since politicians and the media keep using (incorrectly) AK47s and Uzis as examples of weapons that were banned by the AWB...

Personally I am much more paranoid and am convinced that any new AWB will be much worse than the last one (no grandfather clause, illegal to possess, transfer etc).
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:04:42 AM EST
My thoughts on any new ban would be along the lines of No new AR style rifles whatsoever. However the exsisting ones would either be grandfathered or have to be registered. And I wouldnt be suprised if that went for ALL semi-autos. Even that shotgun that was given to J Kerry in WVA a few weeks ago.

Now if bush gets re-elected, then i think we'll have at least 4 years before we can start getting paranoid.

BTW: I havent stopped sending my senators and reps letters and emails. Lucky for me I have one Rep who gets an A+ and a B+ senator. We also have a D- senator too ( I have an entirely different set of letters I send to him, like photo copies of my butt...j/k)
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:30:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 2:34:48 AM EST by Aardvark]

BTW: I havent stopped sending my senators and reps letters and emails. Lucky for me I have one Rep who gets an A+ and a B+ senator. We also have a D- senator too ( I have an entirely different set of letters I send to him, like photo copies of my butt...j/k)
I don't waste the postage or the bandwidth. With Chuck Schemer and Hillary as my Senator's (not my choice) what is the point. At times I wish Senator Pothole (D'Amato) was still representing us.

Also with regards to future "pre-ban"/"post-ban" status, if a new ban were similar to the one that just expired, then it would probably be extremely difficult for the feds to prove it's status, after a reasonable amount of time, once it left the manufacturer. A serial number check would prove that it was manufactured before a specific date but there would be no way to prove once it is in private hands whether or not it had been built up to some "pre-ban" specification and then stripped. Obviously if you had a cutoff date of say 6/30/2005 and a stripped receiver was shipped by a manufacturer on 6/29/2005, then there would most likely be no doubt that it would be "post-ban" since I cannot see it being built up in such a short amount of time. However, if it was legally transferred to an individual on 6/29/2005, then that would be a tough one to prove because the recipient could rush right home and slap on all of the "evil" features and then strip them off on 7/1/2005.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 1:08:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Huckie:
Orionmkii,

One of the many, many reasons I moved from CT to NH this past spring!

So if I understand you correctly, I CAN put a collapsible stock on a rifle that was originally "post ban"?





I work for a 'Super Big Communications' Company and they pay me well so my options are limited to where I can move. Ohio is looking good because in a few short months I'll be the proud owner of two Class III firearms and they allow everything there. FYI: With CT's AW Ban we are not allowed to have a 'Select Fire' weapon (safe, semi, auto) because it's an Assault Weapon, but it's OK to have a Full Auto Only because it's a machine gun. Stupid but true.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:13:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aardvark:
Originally Posted By booniehat223:
Everyone talk about the "next ban" as if we think it could possibly be the same parameters as the last.

My personal feeling is the "next ban" is going to be the legislation in HR2038/S1035, "Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003", which will probably be changed from "2003" to "2005". I am sure it will appear the first week in January that congress is back in session.
[/quote


Basicly what did that act say?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:35:50 PM EST
Provided there is a new "ban" issued, the answers to all your questions would depend on how the new "ban" was written.

All else is pure speculation.

I'd get as many lowers and magazines as I could afford to pay cash for right now.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:39:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 2:44:42 AM EST by Aardvark]

Originally Posted By GUN-FIRE:

Originally Posted By Aardvark:
Originally Posted By booniehat223:
Everyone talk about the "next ban" as if we think it could possibly be the same parameters as the last.

My personal feeling is the "next ban" is going to be the legislation in HR2038/S1035, "Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003", which will probably be changed from "2003" to "2005". I am sure it will appear the first week in January that congress is back in session.

Basicly what did that act say?



The text is available from here on thomas.loc.gov but I have pasted it here in all it's glory (a banner's wet dream):


SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003'.

SEC. 2. DEFINITIONS.

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 921(a)(30) of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means any of the following:

`(A) The following rifles or copies or duplicates thereof:

`(i) AK, AKM, AKS, AK-47, AK-74, ARM, MAK90, Misr, NHM 90, NHM 91, SA 85, SA 93, VEPR;

`(ii) AR-10;

`(iii) AR-15, Bushmaster XM15, Armalite M15, or Olympic Arms PCR;

`(iv) AR70;

`(v) Calico Liberty;

`(vi) Dragunov SVD Sniper Rifle or Dragunov SVU;

`(vii) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, or FNC;

`(viii) Hi-Point Carbine;

`(ix) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, or HK-PSG-1;

`(x) Kel-Tec Sub Rifle;

`(xi) M1 Carbine;

`(xii) Saiga;

`(xiii) SAR-8, SAR-4800;

`(xiv) SKS with detachable magazine;

`(xv) SLG 95;

`(xvi) SLR 95 or 96;

`(xvii) Steyr AUG;

`(xviii) Sturm, Ruger Mini-14;

`(xix) Tavor;

`(xx) Thompson 1927, Thompson M1, or Thompson 1927 Commando; or

`(xxi) Uzi, Galil and Uzi Sporter, Galil Sporter, or Galil Sniper Rifle (Galatz).

`(B) The following pistols or copies or duplicates thereof:

`(i) Calico M-110;

`(ii) MAC-10, MAC-11, or MPA3;

`(iii) Olympic Arms OA;

`(iv) TEC-9, TEC-DC9, TEC-22 Scorpion, or AB-10; or

`(v) Uzi.

`(C) The following shotguns or copies or duplicates thereof:

`(i) Armscor 30 BG;

`(ii) SPAS 12 or LAW 12;

`(iii) Striker 12; or

`(iv) Streetsweeper.

`(D) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine, and that has--

`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

`(ii) a threaded barrel;

`(iii) a pistol grip;

`(iv) a forward grip; or

`(v) a barrel shroud.

`(E)(i) Except as provided in clause (ii), a semiautomatic rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

`(ii) Clause (i) shall not apply to an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.

`(F) A semiautomatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine, and has--

`(i) a second pistol grip;

`(ii) a threaded barrel;

`(iii) a barrel shroud; or

`(iv) the capacity to accept a detachable magazine at a location outside of the pistol grip.

`(G) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

`(H) A semiautomatic shotgun that has--

`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

`(ii) a pistol grip;

`(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine; or

`(iv) a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds.

`(I) A shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

`(J) A frame or receiver that is identical to, or based substantially on the frame or receiver of, a firearm described in any of subparagraphs (A) through (I) or (L).

`(K) A conversion kit.

`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'.

(b) RELATED DEFINITIONS- Section 921(a) of such title is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(36) BARREL SHROUD- The term `barrel shroud' means a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel of a firearm so that the shroud protects the user of the firearm from heat generated by the barrel, but does not include a slide that encloses the barrel, and does not include an extension of the stock along the bottom of the barrel which does not encircle or substantially encircle the barrel.

`(37) CONVERSION KIT- The term `conversion kit' means any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a firearm into a semiautomatic assault weapon, and any combination of parts from which a semiautomatic assault weapon can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

`(38) DETACHABLE MAGAZINE- The term `detachable magazine' means an ammunition feeding device that can readily be inserted into a firearm.

`(39) FIXED MAGAZINE- The term `fixed magazine' means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm.

`(40) FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK- The term `folding or telescoping stock' means a stock that folds, telescopes, or otherwise operates to reduce the length, size, or any other dimension, or otherwise enhances the concealability, of a firearm.

`(41) FORWARD GRIP- The term `forward grip' means a grip located forward of the trigger that functions as a pistol grip.

`(42) PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.

`(43) THREADED BARREL- The term `threaded barrel' means a feature or characteristic that is designed in such a manner to allow for the attachment of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5845(a)).'.

SEC. 3. ELIMINATION OF SUNSET.

Section 110105 of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 is amended--

(1) by striking `--' and all that follows through `(1)'; and

(2) by striking `; and' and all that follows through `that date'.

SEC. 4. GRANDFATHER PROVISIONS.

Section 922(v)(2) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(A)' after `(2)';

(2) by striking `on the date of the enactment of this subsection' and inserting `as of September 13, 1994'; and

(3) by adding after and below the end the following:

`(B) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to any firearm the possession or transfer of which would (but for this subparagraph) be unlawful by reason of this subsection, and which is otherwise lawfully possessed on the date of the enactment of this subparagraph.'.

SEC. 5. REPEAL OF CERTAIN EXEMPTIONS.

Section 922(v)(3) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking `(3)' and all that follows through the 1st sentence and inserting the following:

`(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to any firearm that--

`(A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, level, or slide action;

`(B) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or

`(C) is an antique firearm.'.

SEC. 6. REQUIRING BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR THE TRANSFER OF LAWFULLY POSSESSED SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.

Section 922(v) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(5) It shall be unlawful for any person to transfer a semiautomatic assault weapon to which paragraph (1) does not apply, except through--

`(A) a licensed dealer, and for purposes of subsection (t) in the case of such a transfer, the weapon shall be considered to be transferred from the business inventory of the licensed dealer and the dealer shall be considered to be the transferor; or

`(B) a State or local law enforcement agency if the transfer is made in accordance with the procedures provided for in subsection (t) of this section and section 923(g).

`(6) The Attorney General shall establish and maintain, in a timely manner, a record of the make, model, and date of manufacture of any semiautomatic assault weapon which the Attorney General is made aware has been used in relation to a crime under Federal or State law, and the nature and circumstances of the crime involved, including the outcome of relevant criminal investigations and proceedings. The Attorney General shall annually submit the record to the Congress and make the record available to the general public.'.

SEC. 7. STRENGTHENING THE BAN ON THE POSSESSION OR TRANSFER OF A LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE.

(a) BAN ON TRANSFER OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON WITH LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE-

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after subsection (y) the following:

`(z) It shall be unlawful for any person to transfer any assault weapon with a large capacity ammunition feeding device.'.

(2) PENALTIES- Section 924(a) of such title is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(8) Whoever knowingly violates section 922(z) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.'.

(b) CERTIFICATION REQUIREMENT-

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 922(w) of such title is amended--

(A) in paragraph (2), by striking `on or before the date of enactment of this subsection'
and inserting `in the United States on or before September 13, 1994';


(B) in paragraph (3)--

(i) by adding `or' at the end of subparagraph (B); and

(ii) by striking subparagraph (C) and redesignating subparagraph (D) as subparagraph (C); and

(C) by striking paragraph (4) and inserting the following:

`(4) It shall be unlawful for a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer who transfers a large capacity ammunition feeding device that was manufactured on or before September 13, 1994, to fail to certify to the Attorney General before the end of the 60-day period that begins with the date of the transfer, in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Attorney General, that the device was manufactured on or before September 13, 1994.'.

(2) PENALTIES- Section 924(a) of such title is further amended by adding at the end the following:

`(9) Whoever knowingly violates section 922(w)(4) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.'.

SEC. 8. UNLAWFUL WEAPONS TRANSFERS TO JUVENILES.

Section 922(x) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)--

(A) in subparagraph (B), by striking the period and inserting a semicolon; and

(B) by adding at the end the following:

`(C) a semiautomatic assault weapon; or

`(D) a large capacity ammunition feeding device.'; and

(2) in paragraph (2)--

(A) in subparagraph (B), by striking the period and inserting a semicolon; and

(B) by adding at the end the following:

`(C) a semiautomatic assault weapon; or

`(D) a large capacity ammunition feeding device.'.

SEC. 9. BAN ON IMPORTATION OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE.

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 922(w) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 7(b)(1) of this Act, is further amended--

(1) in paragraph (1), by striking `(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2)' and inserting `(1)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B)';

(2) in paragraph (2), by striking `(2) Paragraph (1)' and inserting `(B) Subparagraph (A)'; and

(3) by inserting before paragraph (3) the following:

`(2) It shall be unlawful for any person to import or bring into the United States a large capacity ammunition feeding device.'.

(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 921(a)(31)(A) of such title is amended by striking `manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994'.

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:55:50 AM EST
HOLY SHIT! They've got everything listed in there but my scrotum.

The only bright points in this official tantrum are that if I'm reading it right, existing stuff is grandfathered in, and there doesn't seem to be registration required of existing stuff.

Of course this "ban" will be just as effective as the bans on alcohol, drugs, illegal aliens, etc.

If you've been wanting anything, order it NOW. If Kerry is elected the backorder lists will be so long that you might not be able to take delivery before Lurch rams this turd down our throats.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 11:18:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Snake45:
HOLY SHIT! They've got everything listed in there but my scrotum.

The only bright points in this official tantrum are that if I'm reading it right, existing stuff is grandfathered in, and there doesn't seem to be registration required of existing stuff.

Of course this "ban" will be just as effective as the bans on alcohol, drugs, illegal aliens, etc.

If you've been wanting anything, order it NOW. If Kerry is elected the backorder lists will be so long that you might not be able to take delivery before Lurch rams this turd down our throats.



Even if kerry wins (unlikely at this point), the democrats would have to take control of the house in the election. That isn't going to happen. Which means delay is still going to be house leader and sennsenbrenner is going to be head of the judiciary committtee, where this bill will have to leave before it gets voted on by the rest of the house.

In short, the chances of it happening are about as likely as barry bonds admitting he's on the juice and asking for his name to be removed from MLB record books.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:12:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 2:14:27 PM EST by SHIPSNIPE1]

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

Why would you have to assemble the lower? Isn't the stripped lower that part that is considerd the firearm, therefore if it was produced before a ban like the 1994 AWB.....?



When you purchase a lower from your dealer it is registered as a 'rifle ' or a 'pistol' and dosen't specify AW.
In '94 when the AWB was enacted, if you followed the letter of the law, technically, a pre-ban lower receiver that had not been assembled into an AW, could no longer be assembled into a AW.
Completely unenforcable. Some manufacturers kept records of which receivers left the factory as built rifles, but for the most part private citizens were on their own to prove wether or not their AR was or not a pre-ban AW (or just a plain jane pre-ban rifle.)

Confused? Thank your elected officials of both parties, they are equally at fault.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:12:47 PM EST
You mean like death and taxes? SORRY. Nothing else is for ever.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 1:13:58 PM EST
During the 10 years of the "last" ban, do any of you know of anyone being locked-up / sued / or any legal proceedings bacause they added the evil features to a lower/rifle made after 9/13/04? To me its all just a bunch of BS! But it is cool to be obeying the law now.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:48:50 AM EST
They can come for my guns...but they are going to get my ammunition first!!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:37:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
They can come for my guns...but they are going to get my ammunition first!!



I have thought something similar myself.
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