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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/15/2005 8:36:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:37:57 AM EDT by DiabloTejano]
After several searches with less than satisfactory results, I turn my query unto you.

If I mount my 14.5" LMT upper wtih an A2 FS to a lower, will it be construed by the BATFE as an SBR?

If so what suppressors will make it a legal length? Vortex? Phantom?

ETA: How much should I look to spend to have the A2 FS taken off and have a new one pinned on?

TIA
JM
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:40:33 AM EDT
Generally speaking a 14.5" barrel with an A2 FH won't be 16"+ legal limit.

Interestingly enough, I measured a Colt 14.5" barrel to closed bolt and it measured at 14 3/4". Go figure.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:42:11 AM EDT
??????????? what was that???????????? someone should contest that.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:47:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Generally speaking a 14.5" barrel with an A2 FH won't be 16"+ legal limit.



Yup - as a general rule, if you have a 14.5" barrel, you need a phantom-length FS to make it legal (when perm attached).

Some companies (CMMG comes to mind) make a 14.7" barrel if you want to use a regular A2 FS(perm. attached)

(but as mongo pointed out, maybe some 14.5" barrels are really a little longer - but you'd have to measure carefully to be sure.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:50:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:51:08 AM EDT by mongo001]
14.75" + an A2 would definitely put you over 16", but if I were a BATFE agent, I could definitely tell a 14.5" M4 barrel from a 16" M4 barrel and I would definitely investigate that rifle, if I ever saw it. The risk of hassle is too much for me, so I put a Vortex on it, when I had it built as a complete rifle. The barrel is still in my safe right now.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:51:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:54:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:56:56 AM EDT by DiabloTejano]
The A2 is permanently attatched, so I guess I'll go get a dowel and check it out.
Does the Vortex come in black or only silver?



Thanks for your help.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:01:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:37:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DiabloTejano:
The A2 is permanently attatched, so I guess I'll go get a dowel and check it out.
Does the Vortex come in black or only silver?



Thanks for your help.




The Vortex, like almsot every other FS is black colored.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:07:01 AM EDT
If you like the traditional style of the A2 FH check with Talon Arms. They have an extended A2 FH made by Sabre Defence that is just slightly longer and will also do the job you're looking for at a lower cost that the KKF A3 Mil-Spec.



Originally Posted By Troy:
If it isn't 16.1" or more, you have an illegal SBR and need to resolve that ASAP.


It's not a bad recommendation to exceed the minimum but I'm not sure what you base this statement on beyond that.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:16:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DiabloTejano:
The A2 is permanently attatched, so I guess I'll go get a dowel and check it out.
Does the Vortex come in black or only silver?



Thanks for your help.



I have never seen a silver Vortex... why did you think its silver? Got a link or pic?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:21:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BH1:
If you like the traditional style of the A2 FH check with Talon Arms. They have an extended A2 FH made by Sabre Defence that is just slightly longer and will also do the job you're looking for at a lower cost that the KKF A3 Mil-Spec.



Originally Posted By Troy:
If it isn't 16.1" or more, you have an illegal SBR and need to resolve that ASAP.


It's not a bad recommendation to exceed the minimum but I'm not sure what you base this statement on beyond that.




Not all rulers and measuring tapes are the EXACT same length - would suck to be off by .1" and be a felon. I think it's just a CYA safety margin, not a legal requirement.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:08:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 11:09:58 AM EDT by ar_mcadams]
OK, let me try to explain what I found out the other day. I took a new 14.5 inch barrel without a f/h on it, installed a bolt and inserted a rod down the barrel. I marked and measured with a measuring tape. I (burned) one inch and started measuring the rod from 2 inches. That way you don’t get any error from the very end of the tape. The actual length came out 1/8 inch past 14.5 inches. On the bolt, I measured the distance from the face of the lugs on the bolt to the face of the recesses area that the brass sets in and it is 1/8th inch. What I am saying here is that when you measure with a rod down the barrel you are including the 1/8th inch length that is recessed into the face of the bolt. Because I know that the barrel is new and is a 14.5 inch m4 barrel, I am confident that the measurement should start at the face of the lugs. Just subtract 1/8 inch from the measurement you mark on the rod. Ill add a picture.

here you can see the recesses area.




Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:37:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 11:40:08 AM EDT by ar_mcadams]
do this,
jam nut I made from cutting a a2 f/h and a little work with a file. Havent pinned it yet. Comes out to be just a hair past 16.



Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:37:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 11:39:18 AM EDT by ar_mcadams]
.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:50:29 AM EDT
I've got to give you bonus points for creativity by cutting that other flash hider down and using the threaded portion as an extension. Never seen that done before but it's not too bad.


Originally Posted By ar_mcadams:
What I am saying here is that when you measure with a rod down the barrel you are including the 1/8th inch length that is recessed into the face of the bolt. Because I know that the barrel is new and is a 14.5 inch m4 barrel, I am confident that the measurement should start at the face of the lugs. Just subtract 1/8 inch from the measurement you mark on the rod.


Well, it's yours and I suppose you're entitled to measure it any way you like but if the goal is to meet the legal requirement its done the way Troy described earlier in this thread as well as several other people have said in another thread. Here is a description of the procedure as found in 27 C.F.R. Part 179.11

Meaning of Tems
Firearm
(c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as mdified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length

(h) (omitted) ...For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breach, or breach block when closed and the rifle or shotgun is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center of the bore.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:54:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BH1:
(h) (omitted) ...For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breach, or breach block when closed and the rifle or shotgun is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center of the bore.



Interesting. So I could "legally" pin an A2 on my 14.75" barrel. You won't see me do that, but it is interesting.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:30:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Interesting. So I could "legally" pin an A2 on my 14.75" barrel. You won't see me do that, but it is interesting.


Provided the flash hider is a permanent part of the barrel and the barrel is not less than 16 inches I know of no reason you couldn't, unless you have a state law that is different from federal.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:45:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BH1:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Interesting. So I could "legally" pin an A2 on my 14.75" barrel. You won't see me do that, but it is interesting.


Provided the flash hider is a permanent part of the barrel and the barrel is not less than 16 inches I know of no reason you couldn't, unless you have a state law that is different from federal.



It's like I stated above, I can recognize the difference between a 14.5" M4 barrel and a 16" M4 barrel. I would suspsect there are law enforcement officials out there that can do the same. I don't want the hassle. My experience is the 14.5" + permanent FH is harder to assemble/disassemble and gives me nothing that a 16" with a nonpermanent FH can't give me and more. YMMV.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:53:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By BH1:
(h) (omitted) ...For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breach, or breach block when closed and the rifle or shotgun is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center of the bore.



Interesting. So I could "legally" pin an A2 on my 14.75" barrel. You won't see me do that, but it is interesting.




Doesn't seem to be any different than the CMMG rifle that is sold as a 14.7" barrel with a permanently attached A2. (If I understood you correctly). Given that precedent, I don't think I'd be hesitant to do it, myself.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:27:48 AM EDT
Bah....a lousy 1.5" more isn't going to severely hinder your CQC experience. If anything, you will get an extra 50 yards of "frag" range out of that 223. If you could care less about the extra 50 yards of range, then even at 15 yards you still have more velocity, which will amount to more violent fragmentation, which *should* translate to more effectiveness. Hell, boys in Iraq are clearing rooms with 20" rifles. Boys in WWII did it with Garands.


If you are seriously bent on being short for maximum CQC convenience and ease, then $200, some paperwork and you can get a shorty commando barrel.


BTW, most guys are right here. Don't argue. Close a bolt on the barrel. Insert a dowel. Mark it. That is your barrel length. That is how the ATF is going to do it. And that is all that counts.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:41:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By BH1:
(h) (omitted) ...For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breach, or breach block when closed and the rifle or shotgun is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center of the bore.



Interesting. So I could "legally" pin an A2 on my 14.75" barrel. You won't see me do that, but it is interesting.




Doesn't seem to be any different than the CMMG rifle that is sold as a 14.7" barrel with a permanently attached A2. (If I understood you correctly). Given that precedent, I don't think I'd be hesitant to do it, myself.



True enough, but there is a distinct difference in the profile of a 14.5" M4 barrel and a 16" M4 barrel, particularly the area between the M4 cut and the FH. I can recognize a 14.5" from a long way off. I just don't want the extra potential attention, from whomever feels the need to extend that attention to me. And as I've stated here until I'm blue in the face, the short barrel with permanently attached FH is so severly overrated. That extra 1"+ isn't going to hurt anybody in any application.
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