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Posted: 3/11/2006 9:03:55 PM EDT
Is Wolf 223 steel ammo case wearing the AR15 upper/chamber gradually? Appreciate if any suggestion?

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:17:13 PM EDT
Theoretically, yes the steel case would. However, you would most likely have shot the barrel out using any ammo by the time this would take to damage your barrel using Wolf. You will have more problems cleaning your rifle than you'll ever have from the steel cased ammo.


TS
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:18:07 PM EDT
Unless you have a really soft, crappy barrel, Wolf is fine.

Smells a bit funny and it's a little dirtier than most, but it's fine to use.

Do a search, as there are lots of discussions on this board and others.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:26:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 2:49:34 PM EDT
Evening All

I was trying to find the answer to this myself and the answer I usually got was from the AR15.com GREAT GURU-IF YOU HAVE TO ASK YOU ARE A MORON-I AM THE ALL KNOWING-HAVE ALL THE EXPENSIVE GEAR guys was that anything but Wolf is worthless. So I didn't get a direct answer to my question.

With that said this is what I think is the answer. With the anodized aluminum receiver having a higher hardness value than the steel casing of Wolf ammo, there should not be any damage from regular usage. However with high usage and the resultant possibility that the receiver's anodizing could wear , thus exposing the softer unanodized aluminum underneath, that the steel case ammo would damage your receiver.

This is the best answer I could find after looking through various forums here and abroad. Short answer is no wolf ammo steel case should not damage your receiver with normal sporting usage. As for combat usage? I think by the time you would have to worry about it in a firefight the firefight would be over.

Hope that helped some.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 3:28:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 3:30:18 PM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By Cragius:
Evening All

I was trying to find the answer to this myself and the answer I usually got was from the AR15.com GREAT GURU-IF YOU HAVE TO ASK YOU ARE A MORON-I AM THE ALL KNOWING-HAVE ALL THE EXPENSIVE GEAR guys was that anything but Wolf is worthless. So I didn't get a direct answer to my question.

With that said this is what I think is the answer. With the anodized aluminum receiver having a higher hardness value than the steel casing of Wolf ammo, there should not be any damage from regular usage. However with high usage and the resultant possibility that the receiver's anodizing could wear , thus exposing the softer unanodized aluminum underneath, that the steel case ammo would damage your receiver.

This is the best answer I could find after looking through various forums here and abroad. Short answer is no wolf ammo steel case should not damage your receiver with normal sporting usage. As for combat usage? I think by the time you would have to worry about it in a firefight the firefight would be over.

Hope that helped some.



You can keep your attitude to yourself. This gets discussed all the time and if you spent anytime at all searching you would find the answers. If you cant take a little ribbing about asking the same questions that come up week after week, then maybe the internet isnt for you? I dont know who you were referencing... but I am not a guru, I dont call anyone a moron (but you are getting close ) I actually use Wolf ammo all the time, and I am not a gear queer (ok, maybe a little)

So I will oblige and cover the topic:

Unfortunately - what you posted is really not relevant.

The *question* about steel cases - is "do they cause accelerated wear?" This means - we must look at the contact surfaces that will come into play.

The upper receiver is NOT one of them. The ONLY place your case comes into contact with the anodized aluminum receiver is OUTSIDE the weapon, on the shell deflector. This has nothing to do with function at all, so we will ignore it.

The places the case will come into contact:

1. Mag internal body and feed lips
2. Bolt face
3. Extractor lip
4. Chamber

That's it.

And that being said - there has NEVER been ANY definitive proof that using steel cases causes ANY accelerated wear on ANY of these parts.

Steel cases are made of a mild steel, and annealed to be very soft. Also, they are not bare steel. They have a lacquer or polymer coating, which add lubricidity to the equation and reduces any potential wear.

The problem with Wolf/Barnaul ammo is not steel cases.... it really comes down to being highly innaccurate and underpowered. If you just want a plinking round, or practice round, and your weapon functions on them, shoot away. Wear is NOT a factor to be concerned with.


(And if you are in a firefight and using Wolf ammo - you have bigger things to worry about than your weapon anodizing. )
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 4:01:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

You can keep your attitude to yourself. This gets discussed all the time and if you spent anytime at all searching you would find the answers. he I dont know who you were referencing... but I am not a guru, I dont call anyone a moron (but you are getting close he

(And if you are in a firefight and using Wolf ammo - you have bigger things to worry about than your weapon anodizing. hr


Actually I was trying not to give anyone any attitude. It seems much too common for certain people on any forum to simply bash someone who asks a question. It never seems to occur to them that they at one point were in the exact same position of not knowing. It is too them I refer . If you took it personally that is unfortunate.

I was not referring to you personally. The person who started this thread asked a question and I tried to give him the best answer I could from what I know. Being that I am not all knowing I can only pass on things I have learned. Ribbing I can take but some people seem so deadly serious about their internet cliches. We all had to start somewhere and it seems a shame that some people don't remember that.



"A man should be humble before God and his fellow men"

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:03:30 PM EDT
I really appreciate all gens comments and inputs. There are ideas in deepth truely valuable I didn't know about which educate me, may be to a lot of other people. Thanks

More experience or ideas are welcome.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:15:55 PM EDT
wolf is dirty it cheap and dam good for a day at the sand pit.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 5:19:05 AM EDT
after 18k of Wolf in my M4 the only wear on my upper is from the bolt carrier.

shoot it up without fear.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 5:53:54 AM EDT
Over 6k rounds of Wolf through my AR's, all laquar case stuff. No problems, not one. A little dirty but the money you save will buy a lot of CLP and Hoppes.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:55:02 AM EDT
I have done exactly zero technical research on the issue, but I have put enough serious thought into it to reach a conclusion to my own satisfaction. As I see it, in order for damage to occur, the hardness of the extracted surface would have to be, to an increased degree, harder than the chamber surface itself. What I do know for a fact is neither lacquer nor polymer are harder than chrome molybendum, thus if these coatings are still connected to the surface of the case upon extraction, absolutly no wear has occured from the caseing itself. I may be wrong, but it would take a pretty serious argument to convince me of that.

Chief

Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:08:30 AM EDT
Someone fogot his MED`S??
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:27:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By Cragius:
Evening All

I was trying to find the answer to this myself and the answer I usually got was from the AR15.com GREAT GURU-IF YOU HAVE TO ASK YOU ARE A MORON-I AM THE ALL KNOWING-HAVE ALL THE EXPENSIVE GEAR guys was that anything but Wolf is worthless. So I didn't get a direct answer to my question.

With that said this is what I think is the answer. With the anodized aluminum receiver having a higher hardness value than the steel casing of Wolf ammo, there should not be any damage from regular usage. However with high usage and the resultant possibility that the receiver's anodizing could wear , thus exposing the softer unanodized aluminum underneath, that the steel case ammo would damage your receiver.

This is the best answer I could find after looking through various forums here and abroad. Short answer is no wolf ammo steel case should not damage your receiver with normal sporting usage. As for combat usage? I think by the time you would have to worry about it in a firefight the firefight would be over.

Hope that helped some.



You can keep your attitude to yourself. This gets discussed all the time and if you spent anytime at all searching you would find the answers. If you cant take a little ribbing about asking the same questions that come up week after week, then maybe the internet isnt for you? I dont know who you were referencing... but I am not a guru, I dont call anyone a moron (but you are getting close ) I actually use Wolf ammo all the time, and I am not a gear queer (ok, maybe a little)

So I will oblige and cover the topic:

Unfortunately - what you posted is really not relevant.

The *question* about steel cases - is "do they cause accelerated wear?" This means - we must look at the contact surfaces that will come into play.

The upper receiver is NOT one of them. The ONLY place your case comes into contact with the anodized aluminum receiver is OUTSIDE the weapon, on the shell deflector. This has nothing to do with function at all, so we will ignore it.

The places the case will come into contact:

1. Mag internal body and feed lips
2. Bolt face
3. Extractor lip
4. Chamber

That's it.

And that being said - there has NEVER been ANY definitive proof that using steel cases causes ANY accelerated wear on ANY of these parts.

Steel cases are made of a mild steel, and annealed to be very soft. Also, they are not bare steel. They have a lacquer or polymer coating, which add lubricidity to the equation and reduces any potential wear.

The problem with Wolf/Barnaul ammo is not steel cases.... it really comes down to being highly innaccurate and underpowered
. If you just want a plinking round, or practice round, and your weapon functions on them, shoot away. Wear is NOT a factor to be concerned with.


(And if you are in a firefight and using Wolf ammo - you have bigger things to worry about than your weapon anodizing. )



If Wolf is so innaccurate then how do you explain my 2 1/2" group at 300 yds with 62gr Wolf JHP?

It's accurate enough that I've killed 5 deer in the last 2 seasons with it.

Having shot serveral thousand rounds of Wolf through my M-4gery, the only problem I have had was the extractor pin breaking, and this didn't manifest until I disasembled the weapon to clean it.

The way I figure it, for the $40 to $50 a thousand I save shooting Wolf, it doesn't take very many thousand rounds to pay for a .99 cent pin to replace the one that broke. Other than that, there is no discernable wear to my rifle.

The steel used in Wolf cases is a LOT softer than the tool steel used in AR uppers and bolts. How long do you have to beat a rock with a stick to get it to break?
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:47:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pcsutton:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By Cragius:
Evening All

I was trying to find the answer to this myself and the answer I usually got was from the AR15.com GREAT GURU-IF YOU HAVE TO ASK YOU ARE A MORON-I AM THE ALL KNOWING-HAVE ALL THE EXPENSIVE GEAR guys was that anything but Wolf is worthless. So I didn't get a direct answer to my question.

With that said this is what I think is the answer. With the anodized aluminum receiver having a higher hardness value than the steel casing of Wolf ammo, there should not be any damage from regular usage. However with high usage and the resultant possibility that the receiver's anodizing could wear , thus exposing the softer unanodized aluminum underneath, that the steel case ammo would damage your receiver.

This is the best answer I could find after looking through various forums here and abroad. Short answer is no wolf ammo steel case should not damage your receiver with normal sporting usage. As for combat usage? I think by the time you would have to worry about it in a firefight the firefight would be over.

Hope that helped some.



You can keep your attitude to yourself. This gets discussed all the time and if you spent anytime at all searching you would find the answers. If you cant take a little ribbing about asking the same questions that come up week after week, then maybe the internet isnt for you? I dont know who you were referencing... but I am not a guru, I dont call anyone a moron (but you are getting close ) I actually use Wolf ammo all the time, and I am not a gear queer (ok, maybe a little)

So I will oblige and cover the topic:

Unfortunately - what you posted is really not relevant.

The *question* about steel cases - is "do they cause accelerated wear?" This means - we must look at the contact surfaces that will come into play.

The upper receiver is NOT one of them. The ONLY place your case comes into contact with the anodized aluminum receiver is OUTSIDE the weapon, on the shell deflector. This has nothing to do with function at all, so we will ignore it.

The places the case will come into contact:

1. Mag internal body and feed lips
2. Bolt face
3. Extractor lip
4. Chamber

That's it.

And that being said - there has NEVER been ANY definitive proof that using steel cases causes ANY accelerated wear on ANY of these parts.

Steel cases are made of a mild steel, and annealed to be very soft. Also, they are not bare steel. They have a lacquer or polymer coating, which add lubricidity to the equation and reduces any potential wear.

The problem with Wolf/Barnaul ammo is not steel cases.... it really comes down to being highly innaccurate and underpowered
. If you just want a plinking round, or practice round, and your weapon functions on them, shoot away. Wear is NOT a factor to be concerned with.


(And if you are in a firefight and using Wolf ammo - you have bigger things to worry about than your weapon anodizing. )



If Wolf is so innaccurate then how do you explain my 2 1/2" group at 300 yds with 62gr Wolf JHP?

It's accurate enough that I've killed 5 deer in the last 2 seasons with it.

Having shot serveral thousand rounds of Wolf through my M-4gery, the only problem I have had was the extractor pin breaking, and this didn't manifest until I disasembled the weapon to clean it.

The way I figure it, for the $40 to $50 a thousand I save shooting Wolf, it doesn't take very many thousand rounds to pay for a .99 cent pin to replace the one that broke. Other than that, there is no discernable wear to my rifle.

The steel used in Wolf cases is a LOT softer than the tool steel used in AR uppers and bolts. How long do you have to beat a rock with a stick to get it to break?



I agree about Wolf being accurate, I used to bash Wolf up and down because it jammed up every round, but I said since the first time I used it "damm this stuff groups great, too bad it wont function in my AR". Couldnt get 3 rounds to fire without a jam. But that was with lacquer, this weekend I tried the "new" polymer stuff and it worked flawlessly and grouped great. I will make it a point to do some groups and post the results here soon.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:47:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 10:59:15 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
If Wolf is so innaccurate then how do you explain my 2 1/2" group at 300 yds with 62gr Wolf JHP?



My first inclination would be that was a fluke. Are you trying to say you can AVERAGE SUB MOA 5 shot groups with Wolf at 300 yds? If that is the case, then you are mistaken, or lying.

Without turing this into a pissing match, steel cased Russian Wolf is good practice/plinking ammo. I have said that. But in test after test, it comes in as the worst accuracy in almost all loaded .223 rounds. I have personally tested at least 20 different factory loadings, and consistently, Wolf rusian steel cased ammo turns out the worst numbers. It is what it is... and typically about 3MOA in most guns. That is 3", 5 shot groups (average) at 100yds. If you want to disupte this.... then by all means, go ahead. Wolf has shown the highest ES and SD variance of any factory load I have tested, and their bullet contruction has overly thick jackets (easily proven) and have sown to be inconsistent. This is what causes that. I am not trying to bash your "precious" Wolf at all, I shoot it. A lot. But dont try and make it something it aint. Your fluke of a group means absolutely nothing. I will bet you a $100 bill, you and I can go out to a range, and you cannot shoot (QTY 3) 5 shot groups and maintain MOA, (or sub-MOA) as you claimed.


It's accurate enough that I've killed 5 deer in the last 2 seasons with it.


"Minute of Deer" means nothing. Also - if you gel tested Wolf (even SP's) you would see it is a poor choice in game bullets, but to each their own.


Having shot serveral thousand rounds of Wolf through my M-4gery, the only problem I have had was the extractor pin breaking, and this didn't manifest until I disasembled the weapon to clean it. The way I figure it, for the $40 to $50 a thousand I save shooting Wolf, it doesn't take very many thousand rounds to pay for a .99 cent pin to replace the one that broke. Other than that, there is no discernable wear to my rifle.


I agree.


The steel used in Wolf cases is a LOT softer than the tool steel used in AR uppers and bolts. How long do you have to beat a rock with a stick to get it to break?


I already said that.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:08:11 AM EDT
The biggest issue with steel cased ammo is less reliability.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:11:20 PM EDT

The upper receiver is NOT one of them. The ONLY place your case comes into contact with the anodized aluminum receiver is OUTSIDE the weapon, on the shell deflector. This has nothing to do with function at all, so we will ignore it.

The places the case will come into contact:

1. Mag internal body and feed lips
2. Bolt face
3. Extractor lip
4. Chamber

That's it.

And that being said - there has NEVER been ANY definitive proof that using steel cases causes ANY accelerated wear on ANY of these parts.

Steel cases are made of a mild steel, and annealed to be very soft. Also, they are not bare steel. They have a lacquer or polymer coating, which add lubricidity to the equation and reduces any potential wear.



The thing that I keep seeing when I check this out is that the POLYMER or the LAQUER (on the older cases) is the only thing that makes contact. So the steel never touches the chamber. That is why you can use a steel cleaning rod that is polymer coated and not do damage to the bore. Same thing with the Wolf ammo. It doesn't wear the chamber because it doesn't touch it.

Extractor is different. It seems to take more abuse on steel, and scratches thru the base of some of my shells (examined after shooting). Not bad, but I can see some indication of more wear (as has been widely reported).

D
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:55:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 2:03:46 PM EDT by ljtag]
I spoke with the Bushmaster guys at the 2006 Shotshow and they actually use Wolf. He told me that their test guns are going on like 10k rounds of Wolf with no problems at all. They like it

However, if you go to Olymipic Arms web site they have info that tells people not to use wolf type ammo
(steel or laquer). They actually recommend a few types to be used with there guns. They claim that "steel is bad for your chamber" Olympic only warranties their guns if you use "new BRASS." http://www.olyarms.com/?page=ammowarning

Since everyone seems to be an expert I thought I would tell you all what the actual gun manufacturers have to say on the issue.

I have an RRA and I have no idea what the real deal is only showing you what I have found out so far. And I will probaly end up buying some on the cheap just to have. Good luck sifiting through all the BS.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:55:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DocGP:
Extractor is different. It seems to take more abuse on steel, and scratches thru the base of some of my shells (examined after shooting). Not bad, but I can see some indication of more wear (as has been widely reported).

D



I have seen it widely speculated... but never really measured increased wear on extractors. There are M16's out there with 10,000 of Wolf on an extractor, and still going. IF you had to replace an extractor at the same point when you wore out a barrel, I think that is a tiny price to pay, but even then, I have never seen a measured test that proved mild steel cases cause any accellerated wear on an extractor. Given 5.56 pressure cause increased pressure on the extractor - I would surmise that shooting Wolf might even lengthen extractor life in comparison to M193, since it is easier to extract in the first place. Just a supposition, though.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:39:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ljtag:
I spoke with the Bushmaster guys at the 2006 Shotshow and they actually use Wolf. He told me that their test guns are going on like 10k rounds of Wolf with no problems at all. They like it

However, if you go to Olymipic Arms web site they have info that tells people not to use wolf type ammo
(steel or laquer). They actually recommend a few types to be used with there guns. They claim that "steel is bad for your chamber" Olympic only warranties their guns if you use "new BRASS." http://www.olyarms.com/?page=ammowarning



Odd that a company with an excellent reputation (Bushmaster) have no problems with Wolf, but Olympic who has had mixed reviews with people I've met claim Wolf is the problem.

I agree that Wolf has not been very accurate in my rifles when compared back to back with other ammo.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 4:35:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 4:39:34 AM EDT by metroplex]
Barnaul is actually loaded much hotter than Wolf in almost all of their calibers. I cannot find enough Barnaul ammo to purchase. Wolf is starting to dry up...

Bushmaster approves the use of Wolf in their rifles, which puts them in a category above the rest. A lot of vendors will void warranties because you shot Wolf through their rifles, or claim their rifles ONLY work on brass cased ammo. Then comes the "87 octane in a Mercedes" angle... which has no basis on this type of discussion (use whatever octane gas is recommended by the manufacturer. 93 octane is no cleaner/better quality than 87 octane)

The funny part is that the Russians use almost the same steel chrome-lined barrels as the Americans, and the Russians almost shoot entirely bi-metal jacket bullets (steel jacketed but copper washed) and their bores handle the abuse just fine. The Wolf .223 is actually copper jacketed.

Anyhow, I bought a headspace gauge (colt field gauge) for my AR-15 just to keep an eye on the chamber headspacing every 1000 rd (to satisfy my own curiosity and because tools are cool).
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:02:45 AM EDT
Wolf sucks, I will gladly take it off your hands and propertly dispose of it.

I have a hard time running it in my AR but I know most of it is from the heavy carrier, buffer and spring. Accuracy wize it groups bad. If you were to pull the bullets, say 1 bullet out of a case you will find that a 55gr bullet will weigh anywhere between 53 and 58 grains and powder will be 21-24grains-not the hallmark of accurate ammo. It is great plinking ammo and allows you to save money on "rainy day" ammo and for other builds,
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:09:35 AM EDT
Good bad or otherwise I wont use it becasue its steel. I agree it most likely wont harm my gun but I dont care. Also I dont like supporting commie bastards!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:22:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tnek:
Good bad or otherwise I wont use it becasue its steel. I agree it most likely wont harm my gun but I dont care. Also I dont like supporting commie bastards!



Suit yourself, that just leaves more for the rest of us
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:21:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 10:42:46 AM EDT by thebigruss]

Originally Posted By tnek:
Good bad or otherwise I wont use it becasue its steel I was involved in a childhood incident involving a pair of steel salad tongs and an unhappy orifice. I agree it I most likely wont harm ever get laid my gun but I dont care cause I'm a little girl. Also I dont like supporting commie bastards believe in deodorant, showers or the female orgasm!



How's that for a little ribbing?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:56:01 AM EDT

I have shot Wolf because it was cheap.

I have found:

1. it stinks (Smell wise)
2. it's innacurate
3. it's underpowered

Increased wear? haven't noticed it. Works reliably in all my rifles.


I have several hundred rounds of new polymer coated Wolf I will sell for $0.10 a round if anybody wants it, FTF in DFW area only. I just don't enjoy shooting it because I find it so inaccurate.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:58:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:
I have shot Wolf because it was cheap.

I have found:

1. it stinks (Smell wise)
2. it's innacurate
3. it's underpowered

Increased wear? haven't noticed it. Works reliably in all my rifles.


I have several hundred rounds of new polymer coated Wolf I will sell for $0.10 a round if anybody wants it, FTF in DFW area only. I just don't enjoy shooting it because I find it so inaccurate.

I imagine that it decreases the wear rate. Less velocity and power mean less friction and wear on the parts.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:07:29 AM EDT
So does everyone shoot uber-match grade Black Hills at trash/cans/paper targets for fun? And I thought 5.7x28 was expensive....
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:20:24 AM EDT
Jeez not this shit again!


Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:07:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 8:07:53 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By metroplex:
So does everyone shoot uber-match grade Black Hills at trash/cans/paper targets for fun? And I thought 5.7x28 was expensive....



I use XM193 and Radway Green for plinking. I consider it cheap. Then at least feel like I am getting some training value out of it. I don't feel that way with Wolf since it is so far removed from any ammo you would use in self defense.

I may shoot up that Wolf I have some day, but it just doesn't appeal to me right now.
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