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Posted: 8/20/2004 5:18:49 PM EST
Well as a few of you know I have a Bushmaster M4 A-3, with Aimpoint ML2, Laure Mount, Samco M33, and a forward grip. I enjoy taking the rifle shooting with my friend and his grandfather. We take other guns such as .22's (Pistols and Rifles), various .40 S&W's and .17HMRs as well as the 12 Gauge. On my first trip with the 2, I heard his grandpa talking behin me about that "expensive fun toy" and "all that thing is good for is making noise". This made me upset but I just ignored it and pretented I hadn't heard him. Then my friend, upon looking at the wooden stake the target was set up on, laughed at the small entrance and exit wound. I was pretty upset then. He then said it was just a crappy gun and that its usless and I am just trying to be like "Army People". I figure he is just jealous, because his best gun is a Springfield XD Tactical. His other guns are like $100-$200. So then today, we went out again, and shot pop cans that we had filled with pond water after drinking. He took his 870 12 Gauge, and shot the can with a slug. WOW. The can split in half, the bottom peice flying back about 15 feet, and a huge jet of water pushing the top piece 20 feet into the sky. So what right? Well I took another can shot it with the .223 and it grazed the side, busting the can open sending it swirling off of the wooden stake. I nearly cried. Not nearly as spectactcular as the 12 Gauge. I later shot off 10 rounds VERY FAST, and he was a bit taken aback. I said, "well at least I can hit it 10 times compared to one slug". He responded by saying the aimpoint sucked. I havn't heard the end of his crappy comments ever since I bought the gun. I really wanna know if the .223 is a really crappy overhyped round, or is it effective and is there anyway I can convinve him that my gun is "cool". Please everyone I really need your help. Thanks!
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:48:10 PM EST
Your friend is giving off some negative vibes.

The AR is great rifle but I prefer the .308 round.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:53:16 PM EST
ask him to engage a target at 400meters, that'll shut him up. The shotgun is a great short range weapon, likewise the .223 round has it place too.

Either that or tell him to F off
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:54:43 PM EST
Ask your friend what all our soldiers are carrying?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:57:43 PM EST
Its very effective if you do your part with placing hits on a target.The round is fine at the ranges that can be expected to have contact with an enemy under 100yds and more often under 50 it will do its job.A shotgun of course in my opinion is the best close up weapon around,even near misses will produce hits something no other firearm can do but for versatility,reliability,accuracy,and more ammo comfortably carried Ill take my AR.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:58:07 PM EST
well, it is a great round for small varmints. not that great against an agressive 200 lb attacker who wants to eat you for breakfast.

before you guys flame me, wait out.....there have been many sandbox analogies that indicate 5.56 is not an effective stopper. it is true when you are considering 1 or 2 shots. where the 5.56 loses out compared to the 12 ga deptartment's wounding ability, it can be compensated for to a certain degree with 4-7 rounds of well placed 5.56. or 1 CNS shot

this arguement is showing itself true in LEO circles where agencies are switching from the scattergun to the carbines. the end user needs to understand what the round is capable of and adjust the training accordingly to compensate. the scattergun is one of the best wounders out there, but not all can shoot it competently or confidently. carbines are generally easier to shoot.

that said, I would hate to be hit by any round!!

Mark
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:03:48 PM EST
You need not worry. Although his shotgun might have much more punch up close, you can actually hit things both fast up close multiple times AND far away. And you won't punch through multiple walls in a house if you ever have to you it that way. A shotgun loaded with anything that is effective for self defense will go through multiple walls.

A .308 loaded with proper ammo is much more impressive in the terminal effects apartment. Duh, bigger bullet, more weight!
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:26:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 6:30:49 PM EST by kensteele]
Without getting into all the factual specifics, I've had my AR15 for many many years and I always thought it was the sh*t. Earlier this year, I finally broke down and purchased a Mossberg 590 12ga shotgun. OMFG. This thing put the 5.56mm to shame. I started getting all kinds of slugs and buckshot, there's way more types of rounds for a shotgun than our weapon. I was in love with my shotgun for a good 3-4 months. Shooting at objects that explode like you did, it was way more impressive. A 3" Magnum 1 3/4 oz slug simply can't be matched at 50 yards.

Soon the novelty wore off. I realized the 590 is very limited in range, out past 100 yards it was a stretch. Only 9 rounds to work with, the pump was relatively slow, and the kick was quite heavy. All of a sudden I started liking my AR-15 again. I realized that it's the overall effectiveness of the weapon, not the short range performance on a water jug. Go find a tall, hard cactus to shoot at 75yards and you'll see that puny .22 cal round perform quite admirably compared to the shotgun. Open fire on a target at 300 yards and you'll see which is better. Shoot tracers in both weapons side by side and the flat shooting high-speed .223 will impress anyone. If you really want to outdo your friend, try a relatively thick steel plate at 50 yards for his shotgun. He'll be hard-press to get nearly any shotgun slug to shoot thru the same steel plate that your AR-15 will easily penetrate well over 100 to 200 yards. Slugs put big dents in steel, the M855 will put a nice clean hole thru it. Find a wide open space 300 yards out where you can unload a 30rd magazine and kick up the dirt with area fire. You can hardly even see where his slug will land at that range.

My shotgun is great and I still love it, but it just doesn't compare to my AR-15 overall anymore.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:52:21 PM EST
Next time you go to the range with your asshat buddy, bump that motherfucker off about 20 rounds and see if he his impressed.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:59:54 PM EST
Your friend has some serious penis envy issues.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:00:51 PM EST
Put some paper up at 100 yards and show them how accurate an AR can be. Here in Texas we can hunt deer with any centerfired round. Me and my brother have killed too many deer to count with our ARs and his Remington 788 in 222. Proper shot placement is the key. The 5.56/223 is a very effective round @ 300 yards and under.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:32:59 PM EST
The contest was over before it started, because you let the comments of your shooting companions get to you.

They're just teasing you and trying to get you riled. You don't have to ignore it. Tell them it saddens you that they're behaving in an unfriendly, small minded, manner.
Then, do what you came to the range for in the first place, practice the Zen of marksmanship. Calmly place a bullet through the center of a distant target.
If you remain calm under stress, confident in your ability and satisfied with your equipment, you'll pass the "test" they're putting you through and earn their respect.

Guns are like golf clubs, sewing needles, sets of box-wrenches, etc. A club for every shot, a needle for every stitch, and a wrench for each size of nut. There's a tool for every application. You use a hammer to hit a nail, a screwdriver to drive a screw, a wrench to turn a bolt. Some tools perform overlapping tasks, some don't. Some won't fit in the toolbox.

The M-16 and 5.56NATO/.223Remington combination of rifle and cartridge provides a set of capabilities. Load up one thirty round magazine and you can keep shooting while others are busy reloading. You can comfortably carry more ammunition afield. You can 'headshoot' proverbial zombies while they're still out of a shotguns' effective range.
The weapon system is modular. You can accessorize with a Bayonet, a 40mm Grenade Launcher, a 37mm Flare Launcher, a 12-Gauge Shotgun, a scope, a tactical light, replacement stocks & etc., and swap the upper reciever to use a different choice of cartridge and accessories.

The AR-15 is favored by many people for many reasons. Do your best to give it a chance. If you want to shoot something else, that's okay too. There are plenty of guns to tickle your funnybone. Shoot the ones that meet your criteria.

For more entertaining effects upon full soda cans, I suggest using softpoint ammunition instead of FMJ. FMJ is good and its' terminal effects are documented elsewhere, but it doesn't behave like a varmint bullet.

If you want to be "cool", then respect yourself, respect others and have a sense of humor. This situation is something you'll laugh about in the future.

Good luck and enjoy your rifle.
~Craig
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:57:31 PM EST
Shoot the old bastard.

Just kidding!
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:15:16 PM EST
Up close the 12 is nasty. Any center of mass hit is probably going to result in AT BEST surgeons trying to figure out how to put the mutilated innards back together. More likely? Some critical thing in your chest cavity stops functioning (or ceases to exist alltogether) and voila - you're outta there.

A 5.56 FMJ to the same regoin will probably be survivable if it doesn't cut into a lung, your heard or a major artery and IF you get immediate medical attention. You VERY WELL could still die due to massive internal damage. The 5.56 IS more of a craps shoot, no pun intended. It could go right on through like you weren't there, which would do fairly small amounts of damage, you know... considering you'd been shot. OR it could riccochet around in the chest cavity, off this rib, fragmenting and ripping up the lungs, off other ribs, tearing the heart in half and poof! out the top of the head. Obviously one such shot would be fatal - the entire cast of ER couldn't put you back together.

However - the 5.56 wasn't designed solely for close-in fighting. We still had a few submachine guns and of course the venerable 45 at the time for closer work than the original M-16 was designed. Just look at it - it's a battle rifle not a CQB weapon.

Iraq and some alpine areas are somewhat unique - long shots are definate possibles out there, long beyond even what the 5.56 was intended to be able to hit, when fired from a field-issued weapon in the hands of an AVERAGE grunt. So, more pooh-poohing of the 5.56. Yeah, right. BITE ME.

In most combat situations you're going to see 300 yard shots about as often as you find $20 bills in your MRE. Between 25 yards and 300 yards is where 5.56 REALLY SHINES as a battle round. Good velocity, armor penetration potential, FAR more accurate than your eastern-bloc competition and low-recoiling. Also you can pack a whole hell of a lot of them around with you.

Now - compared to the 12 gauge? Well lets just say that the close-in energy difference is a big DUH, but the AR would actually give you a chance against an enemy sniper should you see him/her. Both rounds are AMAZING in their adaptability to things they were never designed for. Both also deserve propers for successful comercialization and the resulting CHEAP ammo. Yeah, winchester white box.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:26:54 PM EST
AR15s suck. Shotguns are soooo much better. Thats why our military has been carrying shotguns as their main weapon for 40 years, and why police departments, who traditionally have used AR-15s are decisively moving towards 12 gauge shotguns as their preferred longarm.

Aimpoints suck. why would anyone want something that allows them to get on target that quick? thats cheating




shotguns are cool too, and nasty up close. But your boy sounds like a dufus who is jealous.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:30:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 8:39:46 PM EST by RAMBOSKY]
If you really want an education about the 5.56 round start by reading this:
www.ammo-oracle.com/


There is also a series of articles that go into wound ballistics here:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=164814

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:39:55 PM EST
Yeah, and ultimately they'll tell you the same thing I just did. Of course it pays to have more than one source and I'm admittedly not an expert.

Don't think for one second expert means they can tell you for sure, though. Just like the taser 'experts' who say tasers have never killed anyone.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:51:27 PM EST
Are there any varmints around where you live? i.e. prarie dogs, jackrabbits, ground squirls.

If so, buy some Win 55gr SP or 45gr HP and take your friend with you. As soon as he sees a varmint blown inside-out he'll be a beleiver, trust me. Blood guts and pieces of varmint all over.

If there is one thing I can't stand it's ignorant OLD bastards that bad mouth the AR15.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:01:44 PM EST
Stop worrying about being "cool".
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:19:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 10:21:24 PM EST by chewbacca]
read ammo-oracle.com.

That will show the facts, and you can decide for your self.

Read here, the truth shall set you free
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:38:52 PM EST
get some 45jhp's and shoot that pop can... it'll turn it inside out...
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:46:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 11:24:01 PM EST
Haven't you ever seen them split a hunk of beef in half on the History channel when they shot it with an AR-15? I think it might have been during the AR vs. AK show. It was the most impressive display I've seen of how damaging a hit with 5.56 can be. Anyways, go buy a roast and nail it dead center after it thaws. If the round fragments the roast should be mostly tenderized.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 11:48:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 11:49:08 PM EST by omega-metroid]
well shit, here I was hoping to upload a pic of some shooting I did not too long ago so you could show it off to your shotgun friend about what .223 is capable of and the miserable img command wants a URL.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:59:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By twistedcomrade:
Put some paper up at 100 yards and show them how accurate an AR can be. Here in Texas we can hunt deer with any centerfired round. Me and my brother have killed too many deer to count with our ARs and his Remington 788 in 222. Proper shot placement is the key. The 5.56/223 is a very effective round @ 300 yards and under.



depends on the loads....I've gone pass 400yds and been at 600yds....soon testing 1k yds...
CAN A SHOT W/SLUGS DO THAT????OR BETTER YET A SHOT W/24X SCOPE-W/SLUGS DO THAT???
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:03:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Death_006:
So then today, we went out again, and shot pop cans that we had filled with pond water after drinking. He took his 870 12 Gauge, and shot the can with a slug. WOW. The can split in half, the bottom peice flying back about 15 feet, and a huge jet of water pushing the top piece 20 feet into the sky. So what right? Well I took another can shot it with the .223 and it grazed the side, busting the can open sending it swirling off of the wooden stake. I nearly cried. Not nearly as spectactcular as the 12 Gauge.



EVER HEARD OF NOSLER BALLISTIC TIPS...SHOOT THE 40GRAINERS...THERE WON'T BE MUCH ALUMINUM LEFT AFTER IT'S BEEN HIT...IT'LL LOOK LIKE IT'S BEEN PUT THROUGH A SHREDDER.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 3:24:32 AM EST
Firstly, I need to comment on the idea that a 5.56 mm chest wound is survivable. The gentleman who proclaimed that scares me. I read all too often on these threads of how a 5.56mm NATO round wound is light, or survivable, or other comments to the effect that the 5.56 round is not lethal. GET IT TOGETHER!!!! THIS IS A FIREARM!!! This round will kill you. The lack of safety sensibilities in this day and age just scares me. When I was learning to shoot as a boy, if I told my Father the 5.56 NATO round "wasn't that lethal" I would have been sent immediately to the truck, I would have been through shooting for the day due to my lack of reverence for the power of firearms.
Now...

The .223/5.56 MM round is quite capable of it's job out to around 100 meters. Beyond that, it's lethality decreases dramatically. The M16 rifle is not the weapon to use for engaging hostiles out past 100 meters, that is .308 country. However, the 5.56mm NATO round WILL KILL YOU out to 500 meters plus, don't try it with your buddies. I can just see some idiot pacing off 500 yards so him and his buddy can see just how deadly the round is.

The damage done by the 5.56 NATO round is due largely in part to bullet fragmentation. The reason the soda can that was shot with a 5.56 round "was only grazed" was because the bullet did not have enough material to travel through to cause it to rise up and fragment. The old M193 GI ammo would break pretty much in two when hitting thick tissue up to about 100 meters, beyond that it mainly stays in tact, which is where the 5.56mm round earned it's reputation for being "not that deadly." The new ammo, M855 is a heavier bullet and the bullet case is crimped as to allow it to break in two.

7.62 x 51 or .308 is ALWAYS better than 5.56. I don't care what anyone here likes to think, I don't care what they have read, the 7.62 x 51 NATO round, US M80, is deadly and very deadly over the entire spectrum of it's range. Meaning it is just as deadly at 5 meters as it is at 500 meters, this is the profound difference between the two rounds. This is also the reason you are seeing so many pics of M14's from Irag and Afghanistan, the M16 just does not have the range to do all the work that needs to be done. On the streets of Baghdad, the M4 is quite capable, but you gotta wonder, more capable than a Thompson SMG? I don't think so. I think...and feel free to chime in here fellas....M14's for the desert and Thompsons and 1911's for the streets. The Thompson doesn't have the range, but range is not needed in the streets, the Thompson is much more reliable and has a ton more knockdown power. Then just one caliber for both guns, just like in the big one, good ole .45 ACP. Imagine seeing the looks on the bad guys faces when they see US GI's with Tommy guns. And just watch them shutter when the Tommy gun chatters, nothing like it and much more intimidating than an AKM, just ask a German WW2 Vet what he thinks of the Tommy Gun. Just a thought. If I were in Rummy's shoes, the boys would get new model Thompsons with drums.

And one more thing....comparing a 12ga to a long rifle round is gay.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 4:15:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 4:32:15 AM EST by dennysguns]
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 4:28:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:00:49 PM EST

and feel free to chime in here fellas....M14's for the desert and Thompsons and 1911's for the streets. The Thompson doesn't have the range, but range is not needed in the streets, the Thompson is much more reliable and has a ton more knockdown power. Then just one caliber for both guns, just like in the big one, good ole .45 ACP. Imagine seeing the looks on the bad guys faces when they see US GI's with Tommy guns. And just watch them shutter when the Tommy gun chatters, nothing like it and much more intimidating than an AKM, just ask a German WW2 Vet what he thinks of the Tommy Gun. Just a thought. If I were in Rummy's shoes, the boys would get new model Thompsons with drums.



Ah, a Romantacist...

Sorry, but if we went back to the beloved .45, the dinosaurs of iron and wood you so love would be the LAST option to take...

Just imagine, those sons of those shuttering Germans would have the ideal weapons...the USP and UMP!

PLASTIC PERFECTION !!!
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 2:15:10 AM EST
death,
Your friends were just being rude because they're jealous. They can't afford anything bomb like an AR so they shit all over yours to make themselves feel better. They have no class, you're generous enough to let them shoot over $1000 of kit and they can't even appreciate it. Fuck 'em they're lowlives. Best is to forget them all together. These cheap bastards that buy a bunch of $200 guns are usually idiots.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:12:38 AM EST
Whenever I hear people doubting the effectiveness of the 5.56 round I always refer them to the beltway sniper case. 10 people killed with and 3 critically wounded. I've only heard details on one of the wounded victims and he had so much organ damage that he will never live a normal life.




Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:46:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 7:47:04 AM EST by AR15MadMan]
shot placement

you can shoot someone in the head with a 9mm or a cannon

it is still going to kill them just as dead.

if you shoot them in the hand with a 9mm/cannon they are still not going to die (right away)

thats why the SAS uses 9mm instead of a .45
they get 15/17 rounds in a mag for more kills

MadMan
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:54:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By corwin1968:
Whenever I hear people doubting the effectiveness of the 5.56 round I always refer them to the beltway sniper case. 10 people killed with and 3 critically wounded. I've only heard details on one of the wounded victims and he had so much organ damage that he will never live a normal life.





Does anybody know what kind of ammo that fuckhead used?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:05:38 AM EST
A few points.

1. Effectivenewss of the 5.56mm round is dependant upon ammo selection. That is key.

2. Read the Ammo Oracle, as suggested. It will explain a great deal.

3. Does 7.62 x 51mm fragment? If it doesn't I'd rather have 5.56mm or 6.8mm rounds that do fragment. I don't care what size wounds it makes going in. If you are going by what a wound looks like on the exterior, then frangible ammo would be considered the best ammo for defensive use instead of the worst. I want a softball size ball of goo inside where flesh and organs used to be, that means I want fragmentation, which means many 5.56mm rounds will be my first choice.

4. This thread is lame. Your "friends" are asshats. If all you want is a "cool" gun that makes "cool" holes in paper targets and water jugs, then I can't help you. Some of us care about real world performance and not what will make you look cool to a bunch of range commando morons.

5. I can't believe I wasted so much time reading and posting to this thread.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:06:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By corwin1968:
Whenever I hear people doubting the effectiveness of the 5.56 round I always refer them to the beltway sniper case. 10 people killed with and 3 critically wounded. I've only heard details on one of the wounded victims and he had so much organ damage that he will never live a normal life.







Didn't those guys use AKs?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:18:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:24:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 10:21:59 AM EST by knightone]

Originally Posted By DigDug:
McFly? Hello???



Me or him?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:25:14 AM EST
nope. a bushie with an eotech.

so lemmee get this straight;

a 5.56 fragments out to a minimum of 75yds. a fragmenting 5.56 is really lethal.

a 75 yd shot with a shotgun is difficult.

a loaded mossberg/870 is heavier and slower to aim (9 slugs out to the muzzle vs 30 over your hand) and get a 2nd shot off.


gee, i wonder why i have an ar by my bed...
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:31:37 AM EST
Well everything less then a M2 (.50 cal BMG) is a compromise.
IMO it takes bullet weight for 'knock down' stopping. A .223 will kill you for sure, but how quickly you go down is far to depended on bullet placement. No 'sand-box' experience here, but in the last year I have shot 38 deer at our airport (legal FAA management) using a 16" HBAR and starlight scope (management at night). Using 62gr hollow points, I've shot everything from 40 pound fawns, to 120+ lb bucks. They all died, but less then 40% were 1 shot, tip over and die. All body shots (remember starlight TV screen view, and no allowable missing), with no exit wounds, as the HPs really break up quickly. Of course deer do not have the mind set "O-my gosh, I've been shot, I'm going to die", which probably helps with people dropping over.

So .233 reliable stopping a screaming baddie 100% of the time, nope.
Humping 100s of rounds of ammo, day after day, lots of round downrange, so some hit, hey it works.

Have the best of both worlds, keep the .223 upper, and buy yourself a .50 Beowulf or .458 SOCOM (.50 Beowulf in my case), a throw .50 cal 300-500 grain plugs down range at 1600-1800 fps. It will make your "buddy's" 12 ga look weak, when you crank off 7-10 rounds, the a two second magazine charge for 7-10 more rounds, (if your shoulder can survive).
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:39:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:43:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:46:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
nope. a bushie with an eotech.



photo of it in this thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=266775
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:22:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 10:22:32 AM EST by knightone]

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By knightone:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
McFly? Hello???



Me or him?



You.




Damn. Sorry. I misread it. I thought he meant the LA bank robbery. It was early.

Yeah, Beltway Shooter. Now I'm clear. Sorry for the mistake.
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