Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 10/10/2004 4:33:37 PM EDT
Found this statement from Surefire. Isn't this a form of price-fixing?



>>SUREFIRE DEALER DISTRIBUTION POLICY

SureFire LLC has unilaterally decided that, effective July 1, 2004, it will sell products only to those dealers that in the sole and independent opinion of SureFire, meet the following criteria:

Dealers that Sell SureFire products at prices no lower than SureFire's manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) as stated in SureFire's price list published from time to time.

Dealers that advertise SureFire products at prices no lower than SureFire's manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP).

Dealers that sell SureFire products only through their own retail outlets, catalogs, or through Internet websites authorized by SureFire in writing.

Dealers that do not sell or market SureFire products in any awy that disparages or injures SureFire or its products.

Dealers that do not use SureFire products in any illegal, deceptive, undesirable or improper retail practices, including loss leaders, bait and switch or negative selling practices.

Dealers that do not advertise, sell, or distribute SureFire products for any improper or illegal purpose.

Dealers that comply with SureFire's standard sales policy, as well as any previously announced policies, including SureFire's Retail, Catalog, Professional, and Internet Sales Standards.

This Policy is a unilateral statement of our intent in selecting you as a dealer to carry our product line. This Policy is not a contract, nor an offer to form a contract. We are not asking, and will not accept, any agreement about a dealer's compliance with this Policy. The Policy simply describes the terms under which we may, in our sole discretion, choose to sell our products.

This Policy does not apply to the sale of SureFire products directly t o law enforcement or military, for use in connection with their official duties. Without limiting the foregoing, this Policy does not apply to law enforcement, military, aviation or similar professional organizations specifically authorized to sell SureFire products soley to their members, via password protected websites.

SureFire's Sales Representatives are strictly prohibited from discussing this Policy or any retail pricing practices with any dealer or any person not employed by SureFire. Further, our Sales Representatives are strictly prohibited from seeking or accepting any assurance of compliance with this Policy, by a dealer or other third party. All questions regarding this Policy should be directed, in writing, to SureFire Vice President of Sales.

SureFire does not seek, and will not accept, any complaints or comments from its dealers about the pricing practices of any other dealer. SureFire will not, under any circumstances, discuss the business dealings of any dealer account with any other dealer. In addressing violations of this Policy, SureFire reserves the right to change, amend, or discontinue this Policy at any time, and no dealer has any right to rely on the continued existence of this Policy or any effort by SureFire to enforce it.

SureFire always reserves the right to choose those dealers with which it will do business and the right to accept or reject any purchaseorder from any account at any time.

Surefire L.L.C.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 4:35:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 4:36:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:07:02 PM EDT
I am SOOOOOO tired of Surefire AS WELL as Trijicon inflating their prices....Hell look at Triji...Anyone care to do a price survey on what most products went for 2 years ago compared to today? It's sickening to say the least. Basically I can tell you Surefire can care LESS about the civillian market, I know this firsthand. I've been to their factory and have brought products in for R&D and got treated like I NEVER existed ever since I inquired about a certain product through the VP of engineering! Needless to say this product is well in use with the military but I can't even obtain a unit. Enough said, EVERYONE I KNOW in the LEO community in my area will NOT, I REPEAT will NEVER buy from these ungrateful, greedy bunch...AND THAT goes for the owner as well. Yea, I met him too and tried to talk about our lack of support over the last year and this also fell on deaf ears.

Paul and company at Surefire, never again.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:20:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:22:57 PM EDT
I'm not so sure it's illegal. I've understood 'price-fixing' to be when different manufacturers (competitors) agree to hold prices at a certain level. I believe that a manufacturer can hold their retailers to certain price levels. Doing this would give them greater exposure to the public by having more retailers in business promoting their products.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:46:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
IBOTACH Tactical types that sell SF for $10 over cost.

C4



Is'nt it, in a free market type society, their choice at what profit level they mark up the products they sell??
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:01:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:02:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:15:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:17:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:32:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
I as a SF dealer have had to sign this document and several others. I like and hate what SF is doing. I like the fact tha they are getting rid the BOTACH Tactical types that sell SF for $10 over cost. I hate the fact that they have so many rules and hoops I have to jump through. I personally think that their customer service is top notch. I get what ever I need taken care of ASAP. I also have an AWESOME sales rep that takes care of me 110%...



C4



Well I am glad the dealers at least get taken care...It's ALL money with these guys...Little ol' LEO's/Depts. get treated like dirt from these guys.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:37:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:38:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:39:36 PM EDT
The sun on the end of a stick!

MT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:40:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 6:45:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:01:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:13:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:13:41 AM EDT
hhhmmmmmmm

I've never seen a light that can compare to Surefire.

Yes, they are price fixing.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 10:44:22 AM EDT
I have owned both streamlight and surefire and I will continue to buy surefire.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 4:18:50 PM EDT
I have two Surefire handheld lights and I believe that they undoubtedly make the best product in the marketplace. But with their pricing policy, why should anyone purchase a Surefire product from anyone but Surefire?
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 4:25:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 4:35:41 PM EDT
Technically, yes, this is illegal. It forces the product to be sold at a certain price despite what the market may dictate.

Actually, this is the same thing Sony was pulling with PS2 machines, there was a lawsuit about it, and the settlement was a discount on a game cartridge or something lame like that.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:27:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:29:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By AndrewX:
I have two Surefire handheld lights and I believe that they undoubtedly make the best product in the marketplace. But with their pricing policy, why should anyone purchase a Surefire product from anyone but Surefire?



HUH??? Why would you not buy from a SF dealer???


C4



the point of NOT buying from the manufacturer is the dealer usually beats the MSRP. if you are not allowed to do that then dealing direct with the Company is the easiest route. Always in stock and a direct route for problem resolution.

If you can't get a lower price buy bulk purchasing then there is no real reason to buy from you. The company has not only screwed the customer but YOU as a dealer as well.

mike



All my Surefires bought from dealers were cheaper than MSRP. I will stick with dealers.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:29:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:32:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 5:34:37 PM EDT by The_Beer_Slayer]
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:49:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 6:00:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 6:07:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By AndrewX:
I have two Surefire handheld lights and I believe that they undoubtedly make the best product in the marketplace. But with their pricing policy, why should anyone purchase a Surefire product from anyone but Surefire?



HUH??? Why would you not buy from a SF dealer???


C4



the point of NOT buying from the manufacturer is the dealer usually beats the MSRP. if you are not allowed to do that then dealing direct with the Company is the easiest route. Always in stock and a direct route for problem resolution.

If you can't get a lower price buy bulk purchasing then there is no real reason to buy from you. The company has not only screwed the customer but YOU as a dealer as well.

mike



All my Surefires bought from dealers were cheaper than MSRP. I will stick with dealers.



did you actually read my post?

the point of NOT buying from the manufacturer is the dealer usually beats the MSRP. if you are not allowed to do that then dealing direct with the Company is the easiest route. Always in stock and a direct route for problem resolution.



I did read your post... What I am saying is that this has not happend... Buy from BF or Grant because they will do you better than SF will.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 7:15:32 PM EDT
M6 Description
M6 Millennium M6 w/two lamp assemblies Price
Our: $352.80
Retail: $392.00........Listed @ Surefire website for $392.00

M4 Description
M4 Millennium Devastator w/turbohead Price
Our: $297.00
Retail: $330.00........Listed @ Surefire website for $330.00

I guess there is at least a 10% savings by going to a retailer.
Maybe all the retailers are selling for the same price, I only checked one industry partner for comparison.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:23:42 PM EDT
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds to me like BF and Grant are not selling in accordance with the agreement... you are selling them for less than full price.

How long before SF gets a quote from one of you on this board and cuts you off?

~Doug
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:07:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:16:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:17:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:38:48 AM EDT
Hey last spring called.......



Here's what I want to know: Who are these people selling Surefire on Ebay??

If you play your cards right, you can get a pretty cheap light fairly often.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:44:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:39:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eodinert:
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds to me like BF and Grant are not selling in accordance with the agreement... you are selling them for less than full price.

How long before SF gets a quote from one of you on this board and cuts you off?

~Doug



While not being privy to the actual agreement, I believe such usually only applies to the advertised price - this is generally why you see things listed as POR, here and elsewhere. But yeah, the policy is certainly not unusual - pick any "hot" accessory and check the EE - I don't think it's a coincidence that pretty much every dealer there is selling at the same price.

In general, I think such policies probably help established dealers, but makes it difficult for any new guys to differentiate themselves and draw new custoemrs. Still sorta possible by offering extras and whatnot, but most people, if they had a choice, would probably prefer extra cash in hand, and an extra throw-in they may not need.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:49:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 9:06:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
IBOTACH Tactical types that sell SF for $10 over cost.

C4



Is'nt it, in a free market type society, their choice at what profit level they mark up the products they sell??



They were actually ignoring Sf policy on pricing so that is why they were chit canned. This is the exact reason why SF came out with these new policies. When you have someone like BOCRAP cutting prices so heavily it cheapens the image of the product (SF's words). I am all for giving discounts on SF products (give LE/Military 25% off on all SF gear). There is no need to sell things at cost (doesn't do anyone any good)! hr


Motives aside it boils down to price fixing.....



Technically it is price fixing but it is not illegal. It's called exclusive marketing. Companies such as Bose and Mesa Boogie Engineering use this type of marketing. You have other product options so ultimately the market will determine the price of SF products.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 3:41:26 PM EDT
Surefire sucks!
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:20:58 PM EDT
Love the product, hate the policies and the pricing.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:43:12 PM EDT
Hopefully the new "Gladius" from Ken Good will be the begining of new choices. Surefire has gotten too big for their own good.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:00:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
Hopefully the new "Gladius" from Ken Good will be the begining of new choices. Surefire has gotten too big for their own good.



+1
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:15:11 PM EDT
What sucks about it is they probably do it knowing that there are so many troops that are either having their units buy SF products, or that the troops themselves (or a friend/family member) buy it out of their own pockets.

Supporting the troops my ass... you would think with all the free press/advertising they get and the jump in sales they have received since 9/11 they would bring their prices down. They know that .mil/LEO are their main customers so they must know that their customers aren't pulling down 6 figures.

Ein Bahn baby... they're a one way street. I guess I just expect to much from companies, especially in wartime. They're all business in my book.

What is the profit ratio on any given item from SF? 100%
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:59:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
What sucks about it is they probably do it knowing that there are so many troops that are either having their units buy SF products, or that the troops themselves (or a friend/family member) buy it out of their own pockets.

Supporting the troops my ass... you would think with all the free press/advertising they get and the jump in sales they have received since 9/11 they would bring their prices down. They know that .mil/LEO are their main customers so they must know that their customers aren't pulling down 6 figures.

Ein Bahn baby... they're a one way street. I guess I just expect to much from companies, especially in wartime. They're all business in my book.

What is the profit ratio on any given item from SF? 100%



LE is NOT exempt from Surefire's GREED, believe me! ...Profit ratio?....200% is more like it.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 8:28:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 8:32:09 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
What beats SureFire?

I have an X200A, M500, 10X, 6R-converted to LED, and an M3.

The Streamlight Stinger series compares well to the 6R and M3 for a "belt-light".

Sure they may not be as rugged, but they are about the same size, and the super-stinger, and ultra-stinger throw light better. They are also conviniently rechargable. They are also far less expensive.

10X, this is a light I have tried to like. It isn't well balanced, it can be damaged very easily by dropping, trust me I had both bulbs go in one incident, they cost $50+ to replace. The battery stick on mine has had one of the grip panels fall off. The connection from the actual battery, to the charging ports has disconnected, I have to gingerly set the battery in the charger upside down, at an angle, and jiggle it just right for voltage to actually get into the cell. The amount of light it gives off is very good. Otherwise it is very poorly suited to being a flashlight used "in the field", IMHO.

X200, and M500 well no make comprable weapon lights. Insights M3/M6 are so-so. Durability and beam quality are issues. But the M3 is 1/2 the money or less than an X200, and parts for the M3, including pressure switches are readily available, at reaonable prices. I haven't had the chance to see the "X" series of lights.

For long guns, there really isn't another manufacturer out there.

SureFire used to make really good basic, strurdy lights at competitive prices. They could OWN the tactical light market. Instead they made a choice to make the max. profit per unit sold. They also seem to be spending a good deal of effort on "gee whiz" crap for nerds.

Inova is coming out with a $100-120 rechargable, Li-on, LED, 72 lumen for 90+ minute light, that is about the size of a Surefire M-3. SureFire has LED heads for M3, 6P/R, for conversion for $140 for just the bezel-LED-etc.

Streamlight is apparently continuing to improve it's gear, while remaining customer friendly, and keeping prices down.

KenJGood, as well as other independents are making what appear to be rugged tactical lights.

The market place is getting more players in it. SureFire has opened the market up to competition by pricing itself way out of line with what consumers are willing to pay.

I think their pricing policies, as well as internet sales policies will be biting them in the kiester very soon, and very hard.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 10:36:20 PM EDT
+1!!

DAMN SKIPPY!!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 11:33:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:


if i was some high speed operator that relied on that light for life or death perhaps. but for a general purpose tac light for limited home/field use the streamlights are more than sufficient at considerably less money. and my scorpion has a better beam than my g2.

mike



Coming into this thread late but I believe this is the root of a lot of the problem which results in the debate in topics regarding those that buy a certain make and model of product vs another (usually much higher priced) product.

A lot of posters in general continually fail to recognize the fact that a number of members who write and contribute to these boards are in positions of employment or similar that very much do require the utmost in performance and reliability.

I've dropped my SF millenim lights and banged them around when it was unavoidable. Each one is still burning brightly.

I will always purchase SF products despite price fixing, or whatever, because I have to have something that works. And I'll always purchase from a SF dealer. It's from them that I've gotten the best service and most reliable help.

I will note one thing here. Ken Goode is coming online now with some lights that look very interesting and I feel have a strong potential to rock the world of illumination. But at this point I believe they're still hand held units. It's a positive start but the real world test will be when they start hanging them off hard use weapons that will be employed in various environments.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 1:35:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1001001:

Coming into this thread late but I believe this is the root of a lot of the problem which results in the debate in topics regarding those that buy a certain make and model of product vs another (usually much higher priced) product.

A lot of posters in general continually fail to recognize the fact that a number of members who write and contribute to these boards are in positions of employment or similar that very much do require the utmost in performance and reliability.

I've dropped my SF millenim lights and banged them around when it was unavoidable. Each one is still burning brightly.




I am one of those guys that NEEDS reliable lights. Whatever light you buy, there is always a chance an incandesant(sp) bulb will break, the batteries will croak, a contact will fail. I would much rather have 2 very reliable lights, than 1 super reliable light, if the very reliable lights cost 1/2 what the super reliable light does.

I don't know of any signfigant difference between bulb durability of a Streamlight Stinger, Scorpion, or Strion, and Surfefire handhelds.

LED's are vurtually bulletproof. If you get an LED light, the LED itself is shockproof. Inova, and Streamlight both have LED lights. The market is just begining to get "tactical" LED lights. Alot of Surefire's "shock protected" advantage is GONE when LED's are in play.

My 10X, blew up 1 500 Lu bulb, for no reason, and a 110 Lu, and a 500 Lu bulb crapped out after the light was dropped.

Again I beleive Surefire's real advantage is their weapon lights. The X200 is better than M3/M6 or the newer M3X/M6X, AFAIK -haven't had them "in hand". But when the M3-LED comes out, with an LED as the main beam, SureFire's X200 will probalby become overpriced, and better by the thinnest margin. Even if the M3-LED's only change is the LED main bulb.

Long gun lights, SureFire has no real competition.

Light technology is changing fast, LED's are better. Cheap LED lights, won't act that much different than expensive lights.

FYI, I have an M3 on my belt, and an X200 on my handgun. My 10X is usually near by. But for most tasks the Mag-Charger is in my hand. Even though it doesn't have as nice a beam, or is as durable. In most circumstances the Mag-Charger is a more useful illuminator. Certain circumstances call for more "tactical" lights.

I would never pay the current retail for the M3 or 10X if I had to replace those lights.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top