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Posted: 10/9/2005 6:23:44 PM EDT
Is Aimpoint doomed to become the 2nd best (1st loser optic) to the Eotech for general purpose use. I think that the new eotechs with eotech magnifiers might be the do all end all of the close to medium range optic world.  It is cheaper than the Aimpoint M3 + magnifiers and it is more usefull than the TA31F series.  I have the Aimpoint M3 + magnifier and think that it is a great optics package.  But I think that the new Eotech is the more thought out user friendly optic. I would not be suprised if it is not adopted by the Army at some point.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:21:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:23:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:25:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Ya have not see the new EClans yet have ya?
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:26:38 PM EDT
[#4]
I'll buy your M3 and magnifier for $100!!!
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:35:46 PM EDT
[#5]
I gotta say, I prefer the Aimpoint for a general use weapon. The EOTech only has advantages at 35m and in or so, ad they are slight. I prefer a tube optic with a centered reticle.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:37:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Sure thing Cleatus...
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:38:52 PM EDT
[#7]
I have noted the increased popularity of Eotech, hence why I picked up a 552 (F) on the EE.

However, aimpoint is far from dead, there are thousands of them in general circulation and they can do just about anything the EOtech can do. Parallax free illuminated targetting, woot! Personally, the marginal difference between a M3 or 552(F) is so little, i wouldn't mind trading. The Eotech does seem to be more cost effective with its built in mounting though.

Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:55:44 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
Is Aimpoint doomed to become the 2nd best (1st loser optic) to the Eotech for general purpose use. I think that the new eotechs with eotech magnifiers might be the do all end all of the close to medium range optic world.  It is cheaper than the Aimpoint M3 + magnifiers and it is more usefull than the TA31F series.  I have the Aimpoint M3 + magnifier and think that it is a great optics package.  But I think that the new Eotech is the more thought out user friendly optic. I would not be suprised if it is not adopted by the Army at some point.



Just curious to where you got your objective comparisons from?

EOTech and Aimpoint are two different market segments that will continue to be successful despite one another.  It's really six of one and half dozen of another.  I probably, however, would not have used Aimpoint and "doomed" in the same sentence without more substantiated arguements.

Link Posted: 10/9/2005 8:09:01 PM EDT
[#9]
IIRC the EOTech magnifier isn't even out yet? How can that doom the aimpoint?

I find the EOTech reticle to be too busy already, let alone through a magnifier.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 8:29:14 PM EDT
[#10]
I can't use the EOTech thanks to an astigmatism.

I think EOTech will continue to be a very very good option.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 8:33:41 PM EDT
[#11]
I sold my eotech and went back to my reflex.  I would have kept the eo, but didn't have a shotgun to put it on.  I hear it works good on net guns also
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 9:02:07 PM EDT
[#12]
Aimpoint just needs to come down $100 or so, but they probably make more money by charging what they charge since the US Govt that will buy at any price since its not their money...
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 9:05:14 PM EDT
[#13]
how would the eo+magnifier doom the ta31f?


imo the acog would be much lighter, never need batteries, never need to fumble with scwitches/buttons, take up less space, and it still has bdc which the eotech lacks if put in that situation.






the red dots are meant for certain things like the acog line up is for others. there is no comparing oranges to apples
bu­t hey thanks for the headsup, maybe i can find another aimpoint for dirt cheap.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 9:10:11 PM EDT
[#14]
What are you talking about, Aimpoint doomed?
For who, civilian users? LEOs? Military? Cleatus the frog hunter in Ozark City?

Last I checked Aimpoint was still standard issue CCO and the few Eotechs ordered by the military were not intended to replace the Aimpoint as issue CCO. ACOG is still King for magnified CCO, and will not be likely be replaced by a two piece system any time soon, at least not for the military.

They are both good optics. That said, I don't think there is any question of one replacing the other.

If you are in the field for a while with an eotech you'd better bring a backpack full of batteries, the holosight is comparatively a real battery-guzzler. Even the old Aimpoint will last 10,000 hours on a single fresh battery. You could pretty much leave it switched on for your entire tour of duty, and then some. For those of you without a calc, that is 1.14 YEARS. IN contrast Eotech -
Battery Life: "N" type: 200 hours (8.3 days), AA batteries: 600 hours(25 days), AA Lithium: 1100 hours (45 days)... and don't forget everything else needs batteries too as it is, NVGs, PEQ, weaponlights, mp3 player...

Eotech and Aimpoint  - Apples and oranges.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 11:03:32 PM EDT
[#15]
It's 3am so excuse my questions...

Where can I find a picture of the EOtech magnifier ?

Is it a stand alone magnifier like the kind the aimpoint uses ?

What is it called ?

How much does everyone think it will cost ?

and last, but not least...

When will it be released ?

TIA
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 2:42:26 AM EDT
[#16]
The magnifiers are severly overrated and they, alone, won't be the death of anything, especially at the ridiculous price they are going for.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:21:16 AM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
The magnifiers are severly overrated and they, alone, won't be the death of anything, especially at the ridiculous price they are going for.



Amen.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 4:41:15 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:
The magnifiers are severly overrated and they, alone, won't be the death of anything, especially at the ridiculous price they are going for.



What he said.

I have an Aimpoint and an ACOG and both work great for their intended purpose. I would never get an Aimpoint + magnifier because the price with mounting systems is close to that of the ACOG, and IMHO the ACOG is more functional, more compact and weighs less. Sure, the Aimpoint would be faster in CQB at 1x and could work well at long distance at 3x, but all the hassle with side-flip mounts and stuff kind of spoils the party, doesn't it?

Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it. I'm sure some may find good use for the magnifiers and stuff, but it most certainly is not for me.

EOTech vs. Aimpoint? Easy pick, I hate the EOTech's busy reticle. Otherwise it seems like a solid unit.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:59:50 AM EDT
[#19]
This is why I think that the Aimpoint system is dead.  I own all three differnet optics. The Ta31F, the M3+ magnifier and the Eotech 552 + aimpoint magnifier.  First off let me say that on a carbine the Aimpoint M3+ magnifier is the king (until Eotech starts selling their new optics system). The Aimpoint system is much better suited to a carbine than the Ta31 series optics.  The Aimpoint +magnifier is much much faster than the Trijicon can ever hope to be.  BAC on the Aimpoint system works incredibly well much better than the TA31 F series.  The reason it is so good on the aimpoint is because you can change the brightness levels so the dot is much easier to pick up and is easier to keep in view.  Another reason the Aimpoint is so good is because even with the magnification you can still use the both eyes open method of shooting.  You cant do this with the TA31 series it is not accurate at all.  I tried it and I could still keep good groups shooting fast and off hand with the aimpoint system.  The Ta31 series does not work well when useing the both eyes open method of shooting.  Try it if you get a chance aim the trijicon down range useing BAC and then close one eye to adjust to the magnification the retical will be off target when you do.  When you try this same experiment with the Aimpoint+magnifier you will be dead on no matter what.  The Aimpoint system does what the TA31 series does only much better and faster. The aimpoint system also blows the TA31series out of the water in night and lowlight shooting.  You can adjust the brightness to match your needs in dark and lowlight areas.  You cant do this with the TA31 series in fact the Ta31 series washes out when aiming from a dark area into a light area. Sure you still have the retical but your ability to utilize BAC is hindered.  The Aimpoint system is much better for low light shooting because it has none of the Trijicons weaknesses in lowlight shooting.

Having said that I still believe that the TA31 series is better suited to 20in Ar15s. The reasoning behind this is that the Ta31 series with its BDC is better suited to take advantage of the 20in barrels farther bullet fragmentation range and better long range performance.  I utilize a Ta31F on my A4gery.  I dont like the Aimpoint system on the longer barrels because I feel that the Trijicons are better suited for longer range systems.  The Aimpoint system is better for carbines becuase the BDC of the TA31 series is wasted on a weapon with a roughly 150 meter bullet fragmentation range and the carbine has poorer long range performance.  

The aimpoint system has the added advantage of versatility. You can remove the magnifier when you are anticipating a short range or urban fight.  You dont have to remove the magnifier you can still use the two eyes open shooting method even with the magnifier in place. However the aimpoint alone is much faster for shooting out of a vehical or when engaging in CQB.  I have experience with using the aimpoint from the Army so I am not just talking out of my ass.

The advantages of the aimpoint system far out way its disadvantages. The disadvantages are cost, slightly worse FOV when compared to the TA31series and slight increase of weight to your weapon(I dont really notice it at all).

The reason I feel that the Eotech is going to be the better system is because it is cheaper than the Aimpoint, it uses a more common battery, it is a hell of a lot more user friendly and it has a better magnifier removal system.  I dont really have to shoot with this system after having seen the early design specs I can right away see that it is more user friendly just buy seeing the eary blueprints. Plus the Eotech system has a BDC so it does every thing the Trijicon does only faster and more accurate.
I have also noticed that the eotech system utilizes a better magnification than the Aimpoint system.  I believe that other than battery life the Eotech is already looking like the better system.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:21:37 AM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
The magnifiers are severly overrated and they, alone, won't be the death of anything, especially at the ridiculous price they are going for.

Read my explanation I have all three systems and I find the magnifier option to be extreamly usefull.  It is at much faster than any other magnified optic period.  It is a hell of a lot better than a trijicon can ever hope to be on a carbine.  It is more accurate when using BAC and it is accurate even when useing a two eyes open method of shooting.  It does every thing the Trijicon does only faster and more precise.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:38:07 AM EDT
[#21]
The EOTech won't be in the same class as the Aimpoint M3 until:

1. it can be left "ON" 24/7 and have batteries last over a year

2. it has a TACTILE on/off/intensity switch.  On the Aimpoint, you can be sure it's "ON", "OFF", or at least at a position where you'll be able to see the dot in the ambient conditions by merely touching the knob; you do not have to look at the reticle.

PS.  The TA11 is superior to the TA31.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:39:27 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:
The EOTech won't be in the same class as the Aimpoint M3 until:

1. it can be left "ON" 24/7 and have batteries last over a year

2. it has a TACTILE on/off/intensity switch.  On the Aimpoint, you can be sure it's "ON", "OFF", or at least at a position where you'll be able to see the dot in the ambient conditions by merely touching the knob; you do not have to look at the reticle.

PS.  The TA11 is superior to the TA31.  

Though it still is lacking when compared to the Aimpoint plus magnifier when used on carbines.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:45:40 AM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:
The magnifiers are severly overrated and they, alone, won't be the death of anything, especially at the ridiculous price they are going for.



+1!Don't need a magnifier but I do like the eotech better than the comp m series.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:58:35 AM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:

PS.  The TA11 is superior to the TA31.  
Though it still is lacking when compared to the Aimpoint plus magnifier when used on carbines.



M855 fired from a M4 will have 10" drop at 300 yards, two feet of drop at 400 yards, 50" at 500 yards, and 86" @ 600 yards from a 100 yard zero.  The Aimpoint+3X has no elevation references in its reticle.   Holding a primary aiming point X inches over the target in space is not an effective way to make hits at even these medium distances.  

Even shooting 10" square targets (little smaller than torso, little larger than head) will be much more difficult from 300 on with the Aimpoint/3X and no reticle references.

The crux is, "for what"?  

-z
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:08:45 AM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:

PS.  The TA11 is superior to the TA31.  
Though it still is lacking when compared to the Aimpoint plus magnifier when used on carbines.



M855 fired from a M4 will have 10" drop at 300 yards, two feet of drop at 400 yards, 50" at 500 yards, and 86" @ 600 yards from a 100 yard zero.  The Aimpoint+3X has no elevation references in its reticle.   Holding a primary aiming point X inches over the target in space is not an effective way to make hits at even these medium distances.  

Even shooting 10" square targets (little smaller than torso, little larger than head) will be much more difficult from 300 on with the Aimpoint/3X and no reticle references.

The crux is, "for what"?

-z

I explained this up top.  The M4 carbine with a 14.5 in barrel has a short bullet fragmentation range.  So shots out to 300 meters or even out to 200 metere are pretty much just 22 caliber holes that are no different than icepick wounds. Most combat happens only to a maximum of 100 meters.  If you are anticipating shots out to 500 meters you brought the wrong tool for the job.  You should not even be engaging targets that are out past 500 meters with a 14.5in barreled weapon.  The aimpoint system is perfect for the maximum usefull range for a carbine (bullet fragmentation range). The Aimpoint magnifier is very usefull for finding targets at the carbines bullet fragmentation range. It is also just as usefull as the Trijicon for threat identification.  Also a bullet fired out of a 14.5in barrel is going to have less velocity than a bullet fired out of a 20in barrel.  So the carbine is still a poor choice for a long distance shoot because bullet performance will start to suffer faster on the shorter barrel.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:28:39 AM EDT
[#26]
I could see that, if you merely wanted optional magnification for "close" target ID.

Rhetorical question:  How far is it across a Super-Wal*Mart parking lot?
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:40:02 AM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:
I could see that, if you merely wanted optional magnification for "close" target ID.

Rhetorical question:  How far is it across a Super-Wal*Mart parking lot?

It depends my supermarket parking lot is more than likey not more than 150 meters.  However I have seen bigger parking lots at malls and at other supermarkets. However if you see him before he sees you, you should still not engage until they are closer to a carbines probable kill range.  If he engages you first you should  use fire and manuvuer tactics to ethier get closer or break contact.  Dont engage him if you dont have to.  Dont ever start an engagement outside of your weapons maximum kill range.  The Aimpoint magnifier would allow you to better see the target approaching and be able to get off a head shot if possible once he appraoched your kill range.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:43:48 AM EDT
[#28]
bloodmoon, a member here killed a man at 765 yards with an SPR clone. you are underestimating the 5.56's potential.

If you see a threat at long range, shoot him till he falls down, the go over and make sure he's dead.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:56:40 AM EDT
[#29]
A hit at 300 yards with Mk262 @ 1925fps is better than no hit at all.   It's better to have that capability than not have it, but the trade-off might not always be worth it.  The Aimpoint/3x is not the be-all, end-all of sighting systems-- it has limitations.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:58:54 AM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:
bloodmoon, a member here killed a man at 765 yards with an SPR clone. you are underestimating the 5.56's potential.

If you see a threat at long range, shoot him till he falls down, the go over and make sure he's dead.

Firing M855 ball round.  I am not going to be carrying specialty rounds.  Yes a kill can be made at that range but it is not likley to happen everytime your chances of killing him go up the closer he gets to your maximum probable kill range. Are you talking about simple dynamic I have seen the video and yes he is a bad ass no doubt.  He could have made a CNS hit and killed the guy like that.  He also had lots of shooters with him and good spotters helping him not to mention other advantages.  You will be deprived of all those thing once you are on your own.  In a SHTF sitiuation you will more than likely be alone with no support network to help you clear out a group of hostiles.  Dont risk an engagement if you dont have to and dont take chances with engagments that will get you killed.  I served as a medic for a LRS team in the ARMY.  Although I wasnt a full LRS member I did attend the training at the class in Fort Polk and Fort Benning.  In the training they told us to avoid conflict at all costs.  They said when fired upon break contact immediately.  They told us the truth if we get engaged by infantry we will probablly be killed.  Dont take shots you dont have to. Dont engage until the chances are better for you if you have suprise on your side.  

Always remember the difference between an amature and a professional is the amature will except risk as the normal where the professional will seek to eliminate it entirely

(Edit) I am not saying simple dynamic is not a professional soldier who has forgotten more about combat than I will ever know.  I am just saying if you are alone dont take chances you dont have to.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 9:07:17 AM EDT
[#31]

Quoted:
A hit at 300 yards with Mk262 @ 1925fps is better than no hit at all.   It's better to have that capability than not have it, but the trade-off might not always be worth it.  The Aimpoint/3x is not the be-all, end-all of sighting systems-- it has limitations.

Yes I have named those limitations.  However its advantages far outway its disadvantages
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 9:25:42 AM EDT
[#32]

Quoted:
bloodmoon, a member here killed a man at 765 yards with an SPR clone. you are underestimating the 5.56's potential.

If you see a threat at long range, shoot him till he falls down, the go over and make sure he's dead.

Another thing dont go over there and make sure he's dead. Break contact means break contact bug the fuck out when he drops.  Remember to use fire and manuvuer tactics as you withdraw so you dont get shot in the back  If you go over to play medical investigator he could have buddies around who will fuck your world up.  It could be a trick to begin a counter ambush. As soon as you pop up to investigate thats when it will it you.  

The shit the army and marine infantry do is not for someone alone or in small numbers.  In small numbers you break contact and disengage.  LRS teams. ranger recon teams, and special forces teams. Are taught to break contact when discovered by significant numbers on a recon op.  You alone are basically only going to be doing recon ops as that is all you can do. You are not an engagement force.  Special forces teams with close air support can engage who ever the hell they want.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 9:51:10 AM EDT
[#33]
hey guys, this is a real informative thread, I hope it remains civil

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 10:00:41 AM EDT
[#34]
I'm an EOTech fan, but this is how I see it.
EOTech + magnifier=Aimpoint + magnifier.

Both have advantages over the other, but they also have deficiencies too.

The optics aren't doing what they were designed for, per se.

I'll never think a red dot is a suitable alternative to an actual scope if I'm consistently shooting at 300yds+.

Wrong tool for the job, IMO. And yes, I do understand that they could be used for target ID, but $450 for an Aimpoint magnifier is a little steep just to have a 3X monocular bolted to you rifle if you just intend to use it in that context.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 10:02:26 AM EDT
[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
bloodmoon, a member here killed a man at 765 yards with an SPR clone. you are underestimating the 5.56's potential.

If you see a threat at long range, shoot him till he falls down, the go over and make sure he's dead.

Another thing dont go over there and make sure he's dead. Break contact means break contact bug the fuck out when he drops.  Remember to use fire and manuvuer tactics as you withdraw so you dont get shot in the back  If you go over to play medical investigator he could have buddies around who will fuck your world up.  It could be a trick to begin a counter ambush. As soon as you pop up to investigate thats when it will it you.  

The shit the army and marine infantry do is not for someone alone or in small numbers.  In small numbers you break contact and disengage.  LRS teams. ranger recon teams, and special forces teams. Are taught to break contact when discovered by significant numbers on a recon op.  You alone are basically only going to be doing recon ops as that is all you can do. You are not an engagement force.  Special forces teams with close air support can engage who ever the hell they want.



I was thinking more along the lines of an active shooter scenario.

And while he's got a few little 5.56mm ice pick holes in him that he picked up at 300m, he's gonna come after me a little slower.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 10:04:23 AM EDT
[#36]
Also, US SF in the Ghan reportedly killed men at 600m on occasion with TA01NSNs and M4A1s. I dont know what the ammo is, but if they can do it with anything at 600m, M855 ought to be up to the task at 300m.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 10:53:29 AM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:
Also, US SF in the Ghan reportedly killed men at 600m on occasion with TA01NSNs and M4A1s. I dont know what the ammo is, but if they can do it with anything at 600m, M855 ought to be up to the task at 300m.



SF will be using mk 262 Mod 0 or Mod 1. It is significantly more accurate and has better permanent wound cavity effect than M855. You can see this comparison from military testing of Mk 262 vs M855 in my thread here.

here is an excerpt from that thread (AA53 is DOD-speak for MK 262):



It's pretty much common knowledge that SOCOM troopies are using MK 262 and not M855 unless there is nothing else around.
It's great stuff!
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 11:41:17 AM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:
Rhetorical question:  How far is it across a Super-Wal*Mart parking lot?




"Oh no, you di'nt"  
I realize the thread was controversial, but.....................sheesh!  
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 11:53:56 AM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Rhetorical question:  How far is it across a Super-Wal*Mart parking lot?


"Oh no, you di'nt"  

I realize the thread was controversial, but.....................sheesh!  


Whatever.  

I was an RO for  the "long distance" stage (only went to about 200 actually) at a LEO-only 3Gun match earlier this year.  At dinner afterwards, a bunch of us (civ 3gunners & cops) were discussing the shit-poor marksmanship beyond 50 and especially 100 yards we witnessed.   The example was brought up by a cop who is an excellent rifle shooter.  It is relevant for all those LEOs who, you know, have AR15 carbines in the trunks of their patrol cars.

For more sane discussion, try this thread.

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 1:31:19 PM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
bloodmoon, a member here killed a man at 765 yards with an SPR clone. you are underestimating the 5.56's potential.

If you see a threat at long range, shoot him till he falls down, the go over and make sure he's dead.

Another thing dont go over there and make sure he's dead. Break contact means break contact bug the fuck out when he drops.  Remember to use fire and manuvuer tactics as you withdraw so you dont get shot in the back  If you go over to play medical investigator he could have buddies around who will fuck your world up.  It could be a trick to begin a counter ambush. As soon as you pop up to investigate thats when it will it you.  

The shit the army and marine infantry do is not for someone alone or in small numbers.  In small numbers you break contact and disengage.  LRS teams. ranger recon teams, and special forces teams. Are taught to break contact when discovered by significant numbers on a recon op.  You alone are basically only going to be doing recon ops as that is all you can do. You are not an engagement force.  Special forces teams with close air support can engage who ever the hell they want.



I was thinking more along the lines of an active shooter scenario.

And while he's got a few little 5.56mm ice pick holes in him that he picked up at 300m, he's gonna come after me a little slower.

So basically what you are telling me is you are going to engage an unknown hostile at a long range with a 14.5in barreled weapon at distances where the weapons terminal ballistics are poor.  You are taking risks that will get you killed when you are on your own.  While you are playing grab ass with the hostile who if he knows his shit will be fireing rapid aimed shots while he seeks cover.  While he is seeking cover he very well could be talking over a two way radio and giving his position and yours to his friends who are now flanking you and getting ready to make short work of you.  Always eliminate as many risks to your self as possible.  This shouldnt be a fair fight you should have as many advantages as you can give yourself. Shooting at a target who is 500 meters away is poor judgement on your part if you see him before he sees you at that range bug out and avoid the fight.  The aimpoint magnifier gives you that advantage.  If he sees you before you see him and he fires you need to find cover and breakcontact or you will be killed.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 1:37:41 PM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:
Also, US SF in the Ghan reportedly killed men at 600m on occasion with TA01NSNs and M4A1s. I dont know what the ammo is, but if they can do it with anything at 600m, M855 ought to be up to the task at 300m.

repeat after me I am not special forces. I do not have the support system special forces has. I do not have a SAW gunner laying down cover fire while I set up my shots.  I do not have access to Close air support. I do not have other shooters who can also lay down accurate fire to help me when I miss.  I dont have m203 grenadiers to help me if I am being flanked. I am all alone and want to stay away from contact as much as possible. If I have to take a shot I want to be sure I can make the shot and make it count.  I do not want to get into a prolonged engagement and give my enemy time to evalute the situation.  I am all alone and only have one life my own. I do not have a medic to help me if I get shot.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 1:43:07 PM EDT
[#42]

Quoted:
Also, US SF in the Ghan reportedly killed men at 600m on occasion with TA01NSNs and M4A1s. I dont know what the ammo is, but if they can do it with anything at 600m, M855 ought to be up to the task at 300m.

I never said that the 5.56 round was not capable of killing a target at long range. I said it is risky to even try to take a shot like that against unknown hostiles. You have to hit him at that range. You have to kill him at that range. If you dont you are in for a world of hurt. He will not be standing still like on a range he will be moving looking for cover.  If you miss or only cause a minor wound he might have friends who will fuck your world up. Now that he knows where you are his friends can pour suppresive fire down on you while others flank and kill you.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 1:45:33 PM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Also, US SF in the Ghan reportedly killed men at 600m on occasion with TA01NSNs and M4A1s. I dont know what the ammo is, but if they can do it with anything at 600m, M855 ought to be up to the task at 300m.



SF will be using mk 262 Mod 0 or Mod 1. It is significantly more accurate and has better permanent wound cavity effect than M855. You can see this comparison from military testing of Mk 262 vs M855 in my thread here.

here is an excerpt from that thread (AA53 is DOD-speak for MK 262):

img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/darowden/6.jpg

It's pretty much common knowledge that SOCOM troopies are using MK 262 and not M855 unless there is nothing else around.
It's great stuff!

repeat after me I am not special forces. I do not have the support system special forces has. I do not have a SAW gunner laying down cover fire while I set up my shots. I do not have access to Close air support. I do not have other shooters who can also lay down accurate fire to help me when I miss. I dont have m203 grenadiers to help me if I am being flanked. I am all alone and want to stay away from contact as much as possible. If I have to take a shot I want to be sure I can make the shot and make it count. I do not want to get into a prolonged engagement and give my enemy time to evalute the situation. I am all alone and only have one life my own. I do not have a medic to help me if I get shot.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 1:46:55 PM EDT
[#44]
I think we can now conclude the answer to the thread title is "no."

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 2:06:01 PM EDT
[#45]

Quoted:
It's 3am so excuse my questions...

Where can I find a picture of the EOtech magnifier ?
Is it a stand alone magnifier like the kind the aimpoint uses ?

What is it called ?

How much does everyone think it will cost ?

and last, but not least...

When will it be released ?

TIA



Link Posted: 10/10/2005 2:26:36 PM EDT
[#46]

Quoted:
So basically what you are telling me is you are going to engage an unknown hostile at a long range with a 14.5in barreled weapon at distances where the weapons terminal ballistics are poor.  You are taking risks that will get you killed when you are on your own.  While you are playing grab ass with the hostile who if he knows his shit will be fireing rapid aimed shots while he seeks cover.  While he is seeking cover he very well could be talking over a two way radio and giving his position and yours to his friends who are now flanking you and getting ready to make short work of you.  Always eliminate as many risks to your self as possible.  This shouldnt be a fair fight you should have as many advantages as you can give yourself. Shooting at a target who is 500 meters away is poor judgement on your part if you see him before he sees you at that range bug out and avoid the fight.  The aimpoint magnifier gives you that advantage.  If he sees you before you see him and he fires you need to find cover and breakcontact or you will be killed.  



Hits on target are better than none at all. Sure, its only a little wound, but if I center punch the bad guy quickly then unass the AO, he's not gonna be following quickly. If I leave him alone, he might chase after me. The M4 Carbine is capabl of killing people in excess of 300m. I have spoken with people who have personally witnessed such events.


repeat after me I am not special forces. I do not have the support system special forces has. I do not have a SAW gunner laying down cover fire while I set up my shots. I do not have access to Close air support. I do not have other shooters who can also lay down accurate fire to help me when I miss. I dont have m203 grenadiers to help me if I am being flanked. I am all alone and want to stay away from contact as much as possible. If I have to take a shot I want to be sure I can make the shot and make it count. I do not want to get into a prolonged engagement and give my enemy time to evalute the situation. I am all alone and only have one life my own. I do not have a medic to help me if I get shot.


Nope. I am not special forces. We were talking about a single hostile at 200-500m. I fail to see what relation that has with SF and their heavy weapons.


I never said that the 5.56 round was not capable of killing a target at long range. I said it is risky to even try to take a shot like that against unknown hostiles. You have to hit him at that range. You have to kill him at that range. If you dont you are in for a world of hurt. He will not be standing still like on a range he will be moving looking for cover. If you miss or only cause a minor wound he might have friends who will fuck your world up. Now that he knows where you are his friends can pour suppresive fire down on you while others flank and kill you.


If the situation looks like that, I can decide to leave. Once again, the rest of us in this thread were discussing a single hostile in a civilian scenario.

BTW, _DR, I am WELL aware of the use of Mk 262 Mod 0 and Mod 1 by SOCOM. I have similar cartridges for my weapon. I know that I can make hits on stationary targets at 3-400m with 55gr and an aimpoint, and 500+ with an ACOG and M856. This is from a field position at unkown distance.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:10:50 PM EDT
[#47]
I have one thing to add.

If you have the element of surprise, and for some reason, decide the conditions are right to take a shot at a known (or verified) hostile target at 500yds, do you really think that they are gonna know where you are after one shot?

They would be lucky to figure out which direction the shot came from, let alone find a camoed up guy laying prone (probably behind as much cover as possible) with a rifle at that range.

I think some guys might be over-estimating the distances that they are most likely gonna encounter if something really would happen.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:14:20 PM EDT
[#48]
snort



Thanks for sharing sport.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:31:00 PM EDT
[#49]
I don't think aimpoint is down and out.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 3:39:13 PM EDT
[#50]
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