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Posted: 4/25/2014 9:52:33 AM EDT
Yesterday I went out to shoot my new POF R415 for the second time yesterday.  It kept going full auto for the first 3-5 rounds of each magazine! THIS IS COMPLETELY UNWANTED as I am a slow fire target shooter only! I'm pretty sure it's not bump firing because I have a Magpul PRS installed on it and I had it tight to my shoulder. It didn't do this the first time I had it at the range. The only thing different since the last time I shot it is I installed a JP silent captured spring and the PRS stock. Is there anything recommended that I can look for to make this stop aside from sending it to POF?
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:58:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 10:00:05 AM EDT by Krylancelo]


Originally Posted By comfortechinc:



The only thing different since the last time I shot it is I installed a JP silent captured spring
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Edit: Nevermind, googled "jp silent captured spring."



I would check your FCG springs. Make sure they are all setup properly in the lower. Especially the disconnector spring.



Did you do any trigger work on it?





 
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 10:02:34 AM EDT
No trigger work has been done on it the trigger does feel a little gritty and has some creep in it but no more than any other new gun that I have owned.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 10:11:07 AM EDT
Try taking the FCG completly apart then re assemble corretly, and see if that helps.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 10:14:02 AM EDT
Stole this picture from Google Image Search...







That's the disconnector spring. You need to make sure that is properly installed. If it is not, the disconnector may allow the hammer to follow the bolt back forward and light off another round. Disconnector springs are one of the most common causes of semi-auto guns unreliably shooting bursts.



It's also possible the disconnector itself (the metal piece above the spring in that picture) is misshapen or damaged.



In that case, you may want to give POF a call and see what they tell you. Or you can just buy another disconnector.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 11:31:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 11:33:28 AM EDT by G_MAN]
regardless of whether this is an accident or intentional, you now own a machine gun, you are opening yourself up for legal issues if the wrong person is around when something like this happens. If it happens(especially at a range), STOP using it immediately. FCG are cheap, I'd try to diagnose the problem and then just replace it to be safe.

edit: IIRC there is a story floating around here about a guy getting pinched for something similar to this.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 11:59:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 12:00:46 PM EDT by TaylorWSO]
poor/bad fcg install
check the disco





more importantly did it pass a function test? you did one of those correct?



 
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 12:44:39 PM EDT
Ok I took it to the gun shop where I bought it and they took the whole trigger assy out.   The POF uses their own drop in trigger. The pin that holds and pivots the trigger and disconnector was seizing on the disconnector so by simply opening up and polishing the inner opening in the disconnector he fixed it. It wasn't allowing the trigger to pivot independent of the disconnector. I just can't understand why I would be having problems with a new gun.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 12:50:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By comfortechinc: I just can't understand why I would be having problems with a new gun.
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Originally Posted By comfortechinc: I just can't understand why I would be having problems with a new gun.


Answer:

The pin that holds and pivots the trigger and disconnector was seizing on the disconnector



Stuff happens, this is why we do function checks on new and recently worked on or cleaned firearms. Personally I would have put in new parts vs filling/polishing the old and contacted the manufacture; odds are they would have sent you new parts.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 1:09:45 PM EDT
Well I am new to AR style rifles and don't know a whole lot about them yet. I am not sure how a function test would have revealed an issue like this.  Maybe I should call POF and let them know what happened? Don't they test fire these things before they leave the factory??
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 1:25:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By comfortechinc:
Well I am new to AR style rifles and don't know a whole lot about them yet. I am not sure how a function test would have revealed an issue like this.  Maybe I should call POF and let them know what happened? Don't they test fire these things before they leave the factory??
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This during the mentioned function test (completely cleared and unloaded of course), after you have pulled the trigger, the hammer has fallen, while still holding the trigger back you manually cycle the bolt with the charging handle, then while you are slowly releasing the trigger forward, if the hammer falls again it is a FAILURE of the test.

The hammer should not fall again while releasing the trigger.  Even worse would be the hammer not catching during the manual charge and falling again in "slam fire" style.

Think of it as slowly dry firing and manually cycling the bolt before you release the trigger.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 1:28:41 PM EDT
No, rifle's as a whole are not normally test fired. Some times individual parts are; bolts for example.

A function test probably would have caught this.

http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/functionCheck/
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 1:47:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
poor/bad fcg install

check the disco

more importantly did it pass a function test? you did one of those correct?
 
View Quote



I'm going to go out on a limb and say no, that wasn't done........
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 2:16:06 PM EDT
Yeah, I should've mentioned that also: Always function test your gun(s) after working on them. Even if all you did is clean. It's a great way to make sure everything is working properly before you next use it. And if you can discovery a major problem (like burst firing) while dryfiring, you will be able to fix it and address the problem so you don't lose your important range time (or even worse, have it not work right in a self-defense situation).
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 5:06:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 5:11:35 PM EDT by comfortechinc]
I still can't figure out how changing the stock would affect the trigger. It makes no sense. I will probably call POF and let them know what happened just so there is a record of a malfunction with my weapon.  I guess that is one plus of buying a complete rifle from a manufacturer and not one that I or someone cobbled together. There is recourse if a failure occurs.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 6:20:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By G_MAN:
regardless of whether this is an accident or intentional, you now own a machine gun, you are opening yourself up for legal issues if the wrong person is around when something like this happens. If it happens(especially at a range), STOP using it immediately. FCG are cheap, I'd try to diagnose the problem and then just replace it to be safe.

edit: IIRC there is a story floating around here about a guy getting pinched for something similar to this.
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I doubt he is getting real auto fire, ie more than one round per single function of the trigger.  Weak case and doubtful you would get jammed up in my opinion.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:03:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 952melvin:


I doubt he is getting real auto fire, ie more than one round per single function of the trigger.  Weak case and doubtful you would get jammed up in my opinion.
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Originally Posted By 952melvin:
Originally Posted By G_MAN:
regardless of whether this is an accident or intentional, you now own a machine gun, you are opening yourself up for legal issues if the wrong person is around when something like this happens. If it happens(especially at a range), STOP using it immediately. FCG are cheap, I'd try to diagnose the problem and then just replace it to be safe.

edit: IIRC there is a story floating around here about a guy getting pinched for something similar to this.


I doubt he is getting real auto fire, ie more than one round per single function of the trigger.  Weak case and doubtful you would get jammed up in my opinion.


If I got "jammed up" for something that I had no fault in or control over I would quickly be smelling a multi-million dollar lawsuit for being sold something illegal/questionable, by the mfr. and possibly the dealer.  I am just glad it's fixed and hope I don't have any more issues.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:58:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By comfortechinc:


If I got "jammed up" for something that I had no fault in or control over I would quickly be smelling a multi-million dollar lawsuit for being sold something illegal/questionable, by the mfr. and possibly the dealer.  I am just glad it's fixed and hope I don't have any more issues.
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Originally Posted By comfortechinc:
Originally Posted By 952melvin:
Originally Posted By G_MAN:
regardless of whether this is an accident or intentional, you now own a machine gun, you are opening yourself up for legal issues if the wrong person is around when something like this happens. If it happens(especially at a range), STOP using it immediately. FCG are cheap, I'd try to diagnose the problem and then just replace it to be safe.

edit: IIRC there is a story floating around here about a guy getting pinched for something similar to this.


I doubt he is getting real auto fire, ie more than one round per single function of the trigger.  Weak case and doubtful you would get jammed up in my opinion.


If I got "jammed up" for something that I had no fault in or control over I would quickly be smelling a multi-million dollar lawsuit for being sold something illegal/questionable, by the mfr. and possibly the dealer.  I am just glad it's fixed and hope I don't have any more issues.


Case precedent says otherwise.

Glad it got fixed either way.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 8:03:57 AM EDT
Funny how most of the accidental FA fire on AR's and AK's always come from newbs and it always gets fixed right away.  
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 9:16:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By comfortechinc:
Well I am new to AR style rifles and don't know a whole lot about them yet.....
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I highly recommend to read the technical manual, TM 9-1005-319-10. Being the M4's and M16's share a fairly high percentage in commonality, most of the information in their operator's manual can cross over to the AR15.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 11:33:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By comfortechinc:
I still can't figure out how changing the stock would affect the trigger. It makes no sense. I will probably call POF and let them know what happened just so there is a record of a malfunction with my weapon.  I guess that is one plus of buying a complete rifle from a manufacturer and not one that I or someone cobbled together. There is recourse if a failure occurs.
View Quote


I would think a factory built gun that malfunctions and goes FA definitely falls in the "cobbled together" category. Yup, big "plus". lol!

Out of the many, many ARs I've built I've never had one do that. And if for some reason the issue wasn't caught during the simple function test, I'd simply walk in the house and fix it in about 5 minutes and not have to go through hassle of shipping a firearm back for such a minor troubleshooting job.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 12:22:49 PM EDT
I fail to see how TaylorWSO's harsh comment is helpful.  I'm betting a hundred function checks dry firing it wouldn't have uncovered the issue.  

Link Posted: 4/26/2014 12:59:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By COSteve:
I fail to see how TaylorWSO's harsh comment is helpful.  I'm betting a hundred function checks dry firing it wouldn't have uncovered the issue.  
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I agree that function checks probably wouldn't have uncovered this issue.  But I'm pretty sure that it wasn't really as much of an out of spec disconnector as a combination of tight disconnector and really minimal lubrication.  With the design of POF's drop in trigger group, it looks like it should have detailed instructions on how to lubricate the trigger group for new users.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 1:14:12 PM EDT
A bad disco spring can cause that.
Back in the 80’s I got a few that would start failing after a couple hundred rounds.
Even when the doubling started the weapons would still pass a function test.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 2:48:55 PM EDT
It's those large pins that are the problem. most pins on a regular ar trigger group use small dia pins.
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