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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/25/2005 7:25:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 7:57:58 AM EDT by ColtRifle]

news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article314944.ece



US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
Published: 25 September 2005
US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.

A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.

"The Department of Defense's increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army's transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force - which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 - and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO).

Estimating how many bullets US forces have expended for every insurgent killed is not a simple or precisely scientific matter. The former head of US forces in Iraq, General Tommy Franks, famously claimed that his forces "don't do body counts".

But senior officers have recently claimed "great successes" in Iraq, based on counting the bodies of insurgents killed. Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush's "war on terror".

John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO's figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. "How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don't know," he said.

"If they don't do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let's round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating."

Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: "What are you training for? To kill insurgents."

Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said Mr Bush believed security for the American people could come only from the use of force. Truer security would be achieved if the US developed fairer relations with other countries and was not involved in the occupation of Iraq. The President, said Ms Kelly, should learn from Israel's experience of "occupying the Palestinians" rather than buying its ammunition.

The GAO report notes that the three government-owned, contractor-operated plants that produce small- and medium-calibre ammunition were built in 1941.

Though millions of dollars have been spent on upgrading the facilities, they remain unable to meet current munitions needs in their current state. "The government-owned plant producing small-calibre ammunition cannot meet the increased requirements, even with modernisation efforts," said the report.

"Also, commercial producers within the national technology and industrial base have not had the capacity to meet these requirements. As a result, the Department of Defense had to rely at least in part on foreign commercial producers to meet its small-calibre ammunition needs."

A report in Manufacturing & Technology News said that the Pentagon eventually found two producers capable of meeting its requirements. One of these was the US firm Olin-Winchester.

The other was Israel Military Industries, an Israeli ammunition manufacturer linked to the Israeli government, which produces the bulk of weapons and ordnance for the Israeli Defence Force.

The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.

US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.

A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.

"The Department of Defense's increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army's transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force - which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 - and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO).

Estimating how many bullets US forces have expended for every insurgent killed is not a simple or precisely scientific matter. The former head of US forces in Iraq, General Tommy Franks, famously claimed that his forces "don't do body counts".

But senior officers have recently claimed "great successes" in Iraq, based on counting the bodies of insurgents killed. Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush's "war on terror".

John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO's figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. "How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don't know," he said.

"If they don't do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let's round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating."
Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: "What are you training for? To kill insurgents."

Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said Mr Bush believed security for the American people could come only from the use of force. Truer security would be achieved if the US developed fairer relations with other countries and was not involved in the occupation of Iraq. The President, said Ms Kelly, should learn from Israel's experience of "occupying the Palestinians" rather than buying its ammunition.

The GAO report notes that the three government-owned, contractor-operated plants that produce small- and medium-calibre ammunition were built in 1941.

Though millions of dollars have been spent on upgrading the facilities, they remain unable to meet current munitions needs in their current state. "The government-owned plant producing small-calibre ammunition cannot meet the increased requirements, even with modernisation efforts," said the report.

"Also, commercial producers within the national technology and industrial base have not had the capacity to meet these requirements. As a result, the Department of Defense had to rely at least in part on foreign commercial producers to meet its small-calibre ammunition needs."

A report in Manufacturing & Technology News said that the Pentagon eventually found two producers capable of meeting its requirements. One of these was the US firm Olin-Winchester.

The other was Israel Military Industries, an Israeli ammunition manufacturer linked to the Israeli government, which produces the bulk of weapons and ordnance for the Israeli Defence Force.

The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:06:13 AM EDT
US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I missed something or don't understand , but how is it possable that we could expend that many rounds per insurgent killed ? I know that they don't mean that , that many rounds were actually fired at each insurgent but thats a hell of a lot of rounds . Just wondering .
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:16:20 AM EDT
Consider the source....
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:19:17 AM EDT
I don't buy that number.

I think it has to do more with ramped up training as much as it does the fighting thats going on. but a quarter million rounds/enemy KIA, that just seems way over the top. They have to be including training rounds put down range and all thtat shit, like taking total consumption of rounds regardless of use and using that number... or something...
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:25:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:24:34 AM EDT
If you read it you will notice that it says that number includes training ammo. There are lots of troops over there who expended ammo in training but never fire their weapons in combat.



I'm not promoting this article or even saying that everything is accurate. Just posting it so don't flame me!!!!
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 11:09:33 AM EDT
sounds like someone is trying to run the war by the numbers again....


those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

I don't care if we expended a BILLION rounds per enemy!

Squash em all!
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:17:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blammer:
sounds like someone is trying to run the war by the numbers again....


those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

I don't care if we expended a BILLION rounds per enemy!

Squash em all!





+10000000000000000000
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:42:29 PM EDT
Not to start a sh** storm, but I just can't lay-off this one.......

Repeating the "war by numbers" approach ala the JFK brain trust is the least of our worries. How about not repeating the "merky goals through limited war" approach ala LBJ and Nixon!!! Both sides of the "war debate" love to turn to the "lessons of history" speech when it suits their purposes. But no one in this debate has remembered the most fundamental lesson of history:
No people in the history of humaity have allowed a foreign army to fundamentally alter their internal political power structure without first being thoroughly defeated. We were able to turn imperial Japan and Nazi Germany into successful democracies and product world citizens only after each of those nations were literally burned nearly to the ground.

If we are now unwilling to engage in this level of warfare we have no business keeping our troops in harm's way.

rant off
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:04:39 PM EDT
I don't know everything.

I do know that 5.56mm ammo is hard to find and much higher in price when found.

I know that Clintax, through Executive Order, does not allow surplus USGI ammo sold to civilians. We are ALLOWED to buy overruns and seconds.

I know that Papa Bush banned a bunch of rifles from import, and he was a LIFE member of the NRA. Thanks, Pops.

I know that Baby George stated that he would sign an extension of the AWB, if presented with the bill.

I know that the "War On Terror" started much earlier than 9/11.
1. The start could possibly have been when a bunch of terrorists killed 13 or so Israeli atheletes at the Olympic Games, in Germany, in the early 1970's (1973?).
2. It may have started in Iraq when the U.S. Embassy was overrun by terrorists and American Embassy Staff were held hostage for 444 days, and RELEASED the exact day President Reagan took office. (Jimmy Carter never met a dictator he didn't like.)
3. It may have started in 1947 when Israel was created.

The U.S. has closed EVERY government owned arsenal: Springfield, Rock Island, etc. The ONLY ammo plant I know still making ammo for the military is Lake City, and that is run under civilian contract.

After Reagan, our military and its capacity has been gutted.

It is a shame that we cannot produce enough for our troops.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:07:26 PM EDT
I maybe wrong, but I thought it was our embassy in Iran.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:08:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NapoleonBonaparte:
I maybe wrong, but I thought it was our embassy in Iran.



You are correct.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:21:12 PM EDT
dammit!

And i just finished my AR and entered the firearms world 3 weeks ago... It's like... you start driving and get addicted to it right after gas prices start soaring.

I think I will be needing to read the reloading FAQ and learning how to load my own ammunition in the near future.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:24:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By NapoleonBonaparte:
I maybe wrong, but I thought it was our embassy in Iran.



You are correct.



Yes, you are correct. It was Iran.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:46:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
dammit!

And i just finished my AR and entered the firearms world 3 weeks ago... It's like... you start driving and get addicted to it right after gas prices start soaring.

I think I will be needing to read the reloading FAQ and learning how to load my own ammunition in the near future.



OFF TOPIC.

I reload using a Dillon 550. Yes, it is pricey, but it paid for itself quickly.
Dillon 550

I have found that with the right shopping I can buy reloading components fairly inexpensively.

USGI M855 bullets, no marks, item #3137, under $50/1000 delivered to my door.
M855 bullets

Primed brass, HIGH quality, item # 9C223REMMY, $68.99/delivered. Primed brass does not require the Haz Mat fee that primers and powder have. You save money and time by buying primed, 100% processed brass.
100% processed, once fired, primed, USGI brass

Powder: shop the Internet then go to a large gun show. If this is not possible, shop the internet for what you want. I like surplus powder, because it works and saves me money. I buy as much powder that can be shipped under one Haz Mat fee, or like Hi-Tech ammo offers: "Order a full case (4 - 8 lb containers, mix or match) and pay only shipping, we will pay Haz-Mat." I use IMR-4895 in my 5.56mm, .308, and .30-06 loads, as well as my other .30 cal loads.
Surplus powder

I know that you didn't ask for this, and this is off topic. I hope this gives you a few ideas about reloading.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 11:07:27 PM EDT
can you say spray and prey
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 7:09:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 7:11:35 AM EDT by Daubs]
No one seems to remember that in the 1990's under CLINTON troops had NO AMMUNITION to even train with do they?

I guess that's what they (democarats) call a Balanced Budget.

As for Af's statement:


I know that Baby George stated that he would sign an extension of the AWB, if presented with the bill.


I would like to see that source and article as I don't remeber hearing about it.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 7:17:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 7:24:45 AM EDT by AtlantaFireman]
I remember hearing it on radio news during either Rush or Neal Boortz, and around July or August. I think that it was more around the August time frame, because the AWB was going to expire in September and the dems were hurrying to get it extended or make a new one. I also remember it being hot, hot, hot, and that's August in Georgia. Let's search around, maybe one of us can find it.

Forgot to add:
I don't remember about the troops not having any ammo with which to train. It seems that I would have remembered something as severe as that. I am betting that the media suppressed that bit of information. To be sure, Clintax was NO friend of the Second Amendment...or much of anything else that is right and proper. I am not suprised though. Clintax is a corrupt male; he aint much of a man.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 7:38:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 8:00:31 AM EDT by JoeInCT]

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
If you read it you will notice that it says that number includes training ammo. There are lots of troops over there who expended ammo in training but never fire their weapons in combat.



IMHO, right on point.

Do some simple math. We have, say, 125,000 service people in Iraq alone. Even if they each fire only 120 rds per month (4 mags) for training, that accounts for 180 million rds a year, and 360 million if they fire 240 rds (8 mags) a month.

Remember, the after-action report on the Jessica Lynch unit performance concluded that non-combat people were probably not getting enough trigger time, which left them at a distinct disadvantage when they had to respond to an ambush, so personnel in those types of units had their annual weapons training requirements increased. The lesson was clear: in a war where there are no front lines, every service person is in a potential combat situation, no matter what their regular job might be.

And we haven't considered the people we have in Aghanistan, or active service stateside and elsewhere in the world, or in NG and AR units stateside, and the number of rounds tht ARE used in actual combat situations.

And what multiplier should we use when you consider SAW gunners, Bradley gunners, and Abrams 240G and M2 gunners?

And while no mention has ever been made, consider that we might also be supplying ammo to troops of the coalition countries in both IRQ and AFG, and providing it as well to our active WOT partners like The Phillipines.

Also, I believe they are using total small arms ammunition usage for the entire DoD as the numerator, but only the insurgents killed in Iraq as the denominator.

The ammo numbers get very large, very fast.

IMHO, only those who would try to make anti-war propaganda out of them would interpret and/or comment on the numbers in that way.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:57:32 PM EDT
AtlantaFireman

OFF TOPIC.

I reload using a Dillon 550. Yes, it is pricey, but it paid for itself quickly.
Dillon 550

I have found that with the right shopping I can buy reloading components fairly inexpensively.

USGI M855 bullets, no marks, item #3137, under $50/1000 delivered to my door.
M855 bullets

Primed brass, HIGH quality, item # 9C223REMMY, $68.99/delivered. Primed brass does not require the Haz Mat fee that primers and powder have. You save money and time by buying primed, 100% processed brass.
100% processed, once fired, primed, USGI brass

Powder: shop the Internet then go to a large gun show. If this is not possible, shop the internet for what you want. I like surplus powder, because it works and saves me money. I buy as much powder that can be shipped under one Haz Mat fee, or like Hi-Tech ammo offers: "Order a full case (4 - 8 lb containers, mix or match) and pay only shipping, we will pay Haz-Mat." I use IMR-4895 in my 5.56mm, .308, and .30-06 loads, as well as my other .30 cal loads.
Surplus powder

I know that you didn't ask for this, and this is off topic. I hope this gives you a few ideas about reloading.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thx this is good info to have !!!
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:05:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AtlantaFireman:

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
dammit!

And i just finished my AR and entered the firearms world 3 weeks ago... It's like... you start driving and get addicted to it right after gas prices start soaring.

I think I will be needing to read the reloading FAQ and learning how to load my own ammunition in the near future.



OFF TOPIC.

I reload using a Dillon 550. Yes, it is pricey, but it paid for itself quickly.
Dillon 550

I have found that with the right shopping I can buy reloading components fairly inexpensively.

USGI M855 bullets, no marks, item #3137, under $50/1000 delivered to my door.
M855 bullets

Primed brass, HIGH quality, item # 9C223REMMY, $68.99/delivered. Primed brass does not require the Haz Mat fee that primers and powder have. You save money and time by buying primed, 100% processed brass.
100% processed, once fired, primed, USGI brass

Powder: shop the Internet then go to a large gun show. If this is not possible, shop the internet for what you want. I like surplus powder, because it works and saves me money. I buy as much powder that can be shipped under one Haz Mat fee, or like Hi-Tech ammo offers: "Order a full case (4 - 8 lb containers, mix or match) and pay only shipping, we will pay Haz-Mat." I use IMR-4895 in my 5.56mm, .308, and .30-06 loads, as well as my other .30 cal loads.
Surplus powder

I know that you didn't ask for this, and this is off topic. I hope this gives you a few ideas about reloading.



So, in the end, what do you figure you're price per round is?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 11:30:41 AM EDT


"The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m"


That is a pretty good price $.03 a round for 223, 308 and 50! I guess if you buy these kinds of quantities, you get a price break?

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:55:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Las_Vegas_HK:

"The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m"


That is a pretty good price $.03 a round for 223, 308 and 50! I guess if you buy these kinds of quantities, you get a price break?




ARFcom group buy?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:13:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 6:16:45 PM EDT by rch]

Originally Posted By IceMan_1:
US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I missed something or don't understand , but how is it possable that we could expend that many rounds per insurgent killed ? I know that they don't mean that , that many rounds were actually fired at each insurgent but thats a hell of a lot of rounds . Just wondering .



Gather the number of bullets expended in Iraq divided by the number of insurgents killed. It's amazing, but I tend to believe the figures. There was also a study by a retired Navy Captain in the Philippines, and the number of bullets expended in training and armed encounters to the number of communist insurgents/Moro Islamic Liberation Front/Abu Sayyaf killed had a big ratio, which was very disturbing considering the Philippines has limited resources when it comes to this. Ever wonder why ammo supply sometimes get scarce? The enemy also hides his butt well.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:00:58 AM EDT
I don't believe that so many rounds were fired in Iraq. It says that those figures involve training ammo too.


"If they don't do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let's round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating."

Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: "What are you training for? To kill insurgents."





If you include all the ammo that the troops fired in between the first Gulf War and the second Gulf War then the figures are probably up over 1,000,000 bullets per insurgent. So those figures are misleading.

Second of all, we use bullets not only to kill people but also use them to suppress. Suppression is usually done with crew served machine guns and that takes a lot of ammo.

Guess what liberals.....warfare has changed over the last 200 years!! We don't do things the same way. If you don't like the troops using so many bullets then why don't you join the military and show us how it should be done.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:59:24 AM EDT
liberals- show us how it's done!



That is the funniest thing I've seen/heard/read lately!

keep em coming!
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 2:40:00 PM EDT
The billions of rounds used includes the billions of rounds used in predeployment training, a while back I ordered my Battalion's predeployment training ammo and that was around 4.7 million rounds of all types.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 2:54:37 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 3:05:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 3:07:15 PM EDT by Dave_A]
Issues with ammo:

1) The US has not expanded production capacity since the low-intensity 90's, when the current force structure was established - the same thing that is causing the heavy reliance on reserve forces is causing a reliance on reserve ammo sources... We are still running off the 'reduced for peace' structure.... Also, at present, the long term cost of producing our own ammo (eg investing in new facilities) is probably alot more than the extra cost to obtain it from israel...

2) Between 'use or lose' and the amount of extra work it takes to turn in ammo, extra rounds left over from training end up being fired just to avoid the other 2 problems (no left over rounds -> no need to turn 'em back in, and no 'well, you didn't use it all, so you'll get less next time' issue)... The current situation does not encourage ammo conservation in training...

Ergo, we import ammo... It beats yelling 'bang-bang-bang-bang' (oh wait, in BCT my company ran out of blanks (2004), so we had to...)...
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:58:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AtlantaFireman:
Forgot to add:
I don't remember about the troops not having any ammo with which to train. It seems that I would have remembered something as severe as that. I am betting that the media suppressed that bit of information.



Here is a quote I found to back it up (Click here for actual quote):

Clinton closed the Lake City ammunition facility causing the complet lack of 9mm training ammo a few years ago. Just to show how bad it's got ammo-wise, I shot last year at the national championship match for the National Guard in Camp Robinson, Arkansas (home of the National Guard Marksmanship Training Unit) and they barely had enough ammo to conduct the match. What Clinton did to the military was treasonous.
5 posted on 04/18/2003 6:02:41 PM PDT by Tailback



And another quote (here):

The problem during the Clinton years is that the DOD put a $ amount in the budget for ammo. Once the DOD recieved the $ the Clinton gang of thieves would siphon off that money for various liberal causes. I was a member of my state's NG competetive combat rifle team for three years from 2001-2003 and we were constantly dealing with the lack of training ammo not only for the rifle team, but for the whole state NG because of the shortage Clinton caused. (The rifle team was also used as a training aid to units that requested additional IRQ assets) We paid out of pocket for training and competition ammo for our team (partly because no ammo was available and partly because we could handload better stuff) with no compensation by the DOD. Yes if a state of emergency was declared or an actual declaration of war was made Winchester, UMC, Remington etc... could ramp up. But the problem is if immediate war stocks don't exist (like under Clinton) there would still be a critical shortage until production catches up. In other words, it is definately NOT alarmist clap trap.

9 posted on 01/06/2005 10:18:08 PM PST by Tailback



Just do a yahoo or google search and see what you come up with. Clinton was an A$$ Hat that gunned for a one world military by weakening our own. Thank God another Democrat didn't take office in 2001. Who knows what will happen when Hillary Clinton tries to run in 2008?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:46:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 8:47:42 AM EDT by BSTOCK]

Originally Posted By Las_Vegas_HK:

"The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m"


That is a pretty good price $.03 a round for 223, 308 and 50! I guess if you buy these kinds of quantities, you get a price break?





The article stated they paid 10M more than if they produced it themselves. So thats not .03 a round its .03 a round more than LC produced ammo.
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