Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 8/15/2005 8:12:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2005 10:22:07 AM EDT by Old_Painless]
I have an interesting issue to discuss and am not sure if it belongs in this forum or the Ammo Forum, but since it is about the AR15 platform, I will put it here.

My buddy Tman and I do a lot of shooting. I had prevoiusly shot a lot of Wolf through my Model One uppers and had no problems whatsoever. But one day, I followed-up a session with a few rounds of South African ball. The first round stuck in the chamber and the rim was pulled off by the extractor.

Some time later, I tried the same thing again, and had the exact same results. I attributed it to the old "laquered" Wolf and decided to just wait till I needed some more ammo to try the new Polymer stuff. I used up that last of the laquered Wolf and just bought some new stock with the Polymer coating. Here's a picture:



The new Polymer Wolf is on the top and the old "Laquered" Wolf is on the bottom. It is easy to see the difference.

I expected a difference in the old problem of it leaving "laquer" in the chamber.

So, today we went to the range. I shot about 100 rounds of the polymer Wolf in my rifle and then, without letting it cool off, I loaded some South African ammo and shot it. The first round stuck in the chamber and the extractor pulled off the rim.

Here's a pic of the rim:



We had forgotten to bring a bore rod, so we had to wait till we got home to knock out the brass. It was much more difficult to knock out than I thought it would be.

Once we knocked it out, it was clear why it was stuck so fast.

Look at the stuff on the case:



You can see the black build-up on the body of the case and also on the shoulder of the case.

Since we have been able to duplicate and repeat this failure three times, I believe we have pretty well identified the problem.

The problem seems to be shooting a lot of Wolf and then following it with South African Ball.

We will do further experiments by substituting XM-193 Ball or Israeli Ball to see if they also stick in the chamber.

Lessons Learned:

1. This is certainly not a "bash" against Wolf. I still plan to shoot Wolf as it is the cheapest ammo I can buy. It shoots fine for plinking and I will continue to use it. I will simply be sure to use a chamber brush and carburetor cleaner on the chamber when cleaning it after a shooting session.

2. We have heard rumors of SA ammo having "brittle" brass. Don't know if this is true or if that was a factor in the rim-pull-offs, but we will test other ammo and see the results.

3. I will not shoot Wolf and follow-up with brass-cased ammo unless I have a bore rod with me.

An interesting morning.


Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:17:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
We will do further experiments by substituting XM-193 Ball or Israeli Ball to see if they also stick in the chamber.




That's the one I am curious about - is it an issue with SA brass, or an effect of Wolf?

Interesting stuff - thanks for the post.



(I've never used Wolf, but am considering it - so that is a great thread!)
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:19:15 AM EDT
I don't know O_P, MisterPX had a hell of a time with some SA ammo at a carbine class, the rims kept getting ripped off, could just be that the SA ammo has some soft brass?? I've shot a lot of wolf followed buy other ammo, including SA and never have seen that happen before. I've had issues myself with some SA ammo and ripped off rims with a clean chamber at that.


Still an iteresting observation, and interesting to see the gunk on the case.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:21:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:24:26 AM EDT by donovan007007]
I'm sorry............. I dont see why you dont just throw away the African Ball ammo. I wouldnt even use wolf...........sorry, it sux. I love my guns too much to mistreat them in that manner.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:29:19 AM EDT


I get the same problem with Wolf out of my 14.5" Cavarms upper. My 20" BM HBAR doesn't seem to have a problem with it though.

So far I've had 2 Wolf cases stick in my carbine with the rim sheared off. Both occured about 100 rounds from "clean" of plinking, not mag dumps or anything.

I was going to wait and see if I get a couple more before reporting it though, just to make sure it wasn't just a couple of bad rounds. It appears that the coating can foul up the chamber (in my case, a chrome-lined) enough that it can cause cases to stick. I think that this is made worse by the violent action of the carbine gas system. I was considering getting one of those "fat boy" gas tubes in an effort to turn down the pressure to see if that would alleviate the problem.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:30:02 AM EDT
do a detail cleaning of the chamber. still mighte be some old wolf in there and poly coat mixing.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:32:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:35:03 AM EDT by Not_A_Llama]

Originally Posted By donovan007007:
I'm sorry............. I dont see why you dont just throw away the African Ball ammo. I wouldnt even use wolf...........sorry, it sux. I love my guns too much to mistreat them in that manner.


Ah, the pleasures of ignorance.

I've noticed some thin flaky chamber buildup in my M1S barrel from the polymer Wolf, but I've not had any problems with firing XM193 afterwards.

I actually miss the old laquer. Never had a problem with it, and it was a lot more rust-resistant than the polycoat.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:38:17 AM EDT
I'd guess it has something to do with your chamber dimensions, also. One chamber may show this and another won't. Just a SWAG, though.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:38:35 AM EDT
Well excuse us AR snob.


Originally Posted By donovan007007:
I'm sorry............. I dont see why you dont just throw away the African Ball ammo. I wouldnt even use wolf...........sorry, it sux. I love my guns too much to mistreat them in that manner.



I just had a similar issue using new poly wolf and trying to get rid of some Barnual (sp?) I shot several mags of a mix of these two ammo types. Then did not clean the rifle and came back a couple days later to finish off the Barnual (steel cased lacquer coated).

The second shot of the day the case was stuck in the chamber and needed to be pounded out with a steel rod. The rim of the case was not ripped off completely, but the case was stuck.

The chamber and bore was cleaned up and 2 more mags of poly wolf were shot through it without incident.

I think we can conclude that the steel cased ammo lacquer or poly coating is leaving stuff in the chamber that might cause a stuck case. This problem could be enhanced by brass cases or not cleaning the chamber.

This is good to know, it just means, make sure you clean you chamber after shooting this ammo.

Now that ammo is getting so expensive, I have switched to wolf poly for plinking and have no problems shooting it for 10 cents a round. Just have to clean my chamber, which I should do anyway.

SMMV (SNOBs mileage may vary)

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:48:54 AM EDT
I buy 1000 round cases of remington .223 for 142.50, I dont mind paying $0.14 a round for Quality non-fouling ammo.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:50:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Lessons Learned:

1. This is certainly not a "bash" against Wolf. I still plan to shoot Wolf as it is the cheapest ammo I can buy. It shoots fine for plinking and I will continue to use it. I will simply be sure to use a chamber brush and brake cleaner on the chamber when cleaning it after a shooting session.

2. We have heard rumors of SA ammo having "brittle" brass. Don't know if this is true or if that was a factor in the rim-pull-offs, but we will test other ammo and see the results.

3. I will not shoot Wolf and follow-up with brass-cased ammo unless I have a bore rod with me.




Is brake cleaner known to reliably dissolve lacquer and/or polymer fouling?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:50:15 AM EDT
I am wondering if the deposits left on the chamber by the wolf then shooting the SA which seems to be GI spec and pretty hot causes the brass to flow around the deposits and stick. If I shoot 45 colt in my RRH then go to .454 I get stuck cases every time, if I clean it first, no problem. I'd clean the chamber really good then shoot the SA first then the wolf and see if it still happens. Is your chamber 223 or 5.56? I have a M1 upper also and even tho it SAYS 5.56 I don't think it is as it does not like SA either, in fact it does not like ANY 5.56 period. Only upper I have with that problem as all my others are RRA or Colt and 5.56.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:51:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlammO:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Lessons Learned:

1. This is certainly not a "bash" against Wolf. I still plan to shoot Wolf as it is the cheapest ammo I can buy. It shoots fine for plinking and I will continue to use it. I will simply be sure to use a chamber brush and brake cleaner on the chamber when cleaning it after a shooting session.

2. We have heard rumors of SA ammo having "brittle" brass. Don't know if this is true or if that was a factor in the rim-pull-offs, but we will test other ammo and see the results.

3. I will not shoot Wolf and follow-up with brass-cased ammo unless I have a bore rod with me.




Is brake cleaner known to reliably dissolve lacquer and/or polymer fouling?



Use CARB cleaner, it WILL dissolve lacquer easily, probably poly also.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:57:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:04:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:

Originally Posted By BlammO:

Is brake cleaner known to reliably dissolve lacquer and/or polymer fouling?



Use CARB cleaner, it WILL dissolve lacquer easily, probably poly also.



I "mispoke". I meant carburetor cleaner and have corrected my original post.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:07:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
What's happening here is that the steel Wolf cases aren't expanding enough to form a good seal when fired, so some of the (dirty, carbon-filled) gasses are getting between the case and the chamber, causing a build up of carbon in the chamber that is far in excess of normal. Then, firing a brass case that DOES expand fully will result in that case being "glued" into the chamber by the carbon buildup.



That is certainly a plausable explaination. The black "stuff" on the fired brass case does indeed look like carbon.


It actually looks to me like the SA brass is BRITTLE, not too soft. Soft brass will be deformed at the case rim where the extractor pulled through it, while hard, brittle brass will just have that section of the rim broken off.


That is exactly what we suspected. The brass seems to be brittle.


Likely, neither ammo would be a problem on its own, but mixing them is clearly bad news.

-Troy



Again, just what I observed.

I have had many, many sessions at the range where I just shot Wolf without any problems whatsoever.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:18:35 AM EDT
Finally a actual first hand account of something like this, usually its the same old "my moms brothers uncles maids dog told me wolf sucks and I should shoot x"
I'll still shoot it but I'll also pick up some carb cleaner, thanks for the info...
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:26:02 AM EDT
You mean to say you shoot that lower class UMC crap!

I remember those days.

Now days that stuff is $.20 a round where I am.

I was all over that stuff when it was $.15 a round, course you can still buy 30% more wolf !



Originally Posted By donovan007007:
I buy 1000 round cases of remington .223 for 142.50, I dont mind paying $0.14 a round for Quality non-fouling ammo.

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:32:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 9:33:39 AM EDT by Old_Painless]

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Finally a actual first hand account of something like this, usually its the same old "my moms brothers uncles maids dog told me wolf sucks and I should shoot x"
I'll still shoot it but I'll also pick up some carb cleaner, thanks for the info...



As it so happens, Tman and I were talking about just that phenomena as we drove home from the range.

We've heard a lot of the "I heard from my cousin's next door neighbor's friend that that Wolf is bad stuff". We have actually shot many thousands of rounds of Wolf. This last I bought was around 10 cents per round.

I can do a little gun cleaning for that cost.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:40:42 AM EDT
only prob I've ver had with Wolf was in my Glock 23. I hadnt cleaned it in a while and a case got stuck. After I finally managed to get it out, I looked in the chamber and it was all sorts of junked up.

I love Wolf, but it's really dirty.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:47:09 AM EDT
I second Troy's and Mongo's comments.

Before I bought my BM upper (5.56 chamber) I had a Model 1 upper with a .223 chamber. Fired Wolf (old lacquer) like no tomorrow, but when I used the South African (battle packs) I would bet stuck shells.

When I did get the South African shell out the rim with be pretty torn up. I started to see a pattern with the SA, in my Model 1 "M4" I had issues and with my Colt MT6601 I didn't have issues. Even when I didn't fire any Wolf prior to the SA ammo.

Not knowing at the time the true difference between chamber sizes I read up a lot on this forum and decided to buy a BM "M4" upper. I didn't have any more issues with the SA ammo.

So, I would write it off and both the chamber size and what Mongo and Troy said.

Nothing to fret too much over. I would just give that chamber a really good cleaning and try to keep the range time to either pure Wolf or pure SA/other brand ammo. That should help with the issues.

good luck and shoot it up!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:02:30 AM EDT
I will conquer with troy. I don't think the cases are leaving molten laquer behind, i believe the wolf isn't expanding and allowing cardon to get in the chamber. I did my own test although not scientific it proved a point to me. I took a brown bear .223 (laquer coated) and pulled the bullet and fired the primer I then secured the case in a vise with the neck down. I placed a dish under the case and heated the case untill cherry red with a propane torch. Nothing came of the case. When it had cooled the laquer was still intact on the case. I have also picked up spent cases and examined them. They do show small scratches when the laquer has been scratched off but the are smaller than a hair.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:10:12 AM EDT

But one day, I followed-up a session with a few rounds of South African ball. The first round stuck in the chamber and the rim was pulled off by the extractor.


I had this happen to me with the poly coat as well . The diff is I did not switch ammo.

I was shooting 2 different ARs at the range. 1 rifle 1pistol.

I shot about 200 through the rifle then swithched to the pistol for 90 rds.

When I went back to the rifle (now cool) the very first round had the rim ripped off and I had to use a rod to get it out.

I sprayed in some break free and it was fine after. In retrospect I should have then tried shooting the pistol after it cooled.

The wolf was 55gr HP poly.


Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:30:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Clayfish:
I don't think the cases are leaving molten laquer behind, ...



Me neither.

In fact, that would be impossible. I was shooting the new Poly Wolf. It does not have a laquer coating.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:34:48 AM EDT
I would just ditch the SA ammo. I've put over 1000 rounds of Wolf through my Bushmaster M4gery so far without any failures. That includes a lot of rapid firing as well with no problems. It's great ammo for plinking and is damn cheap, so I'll keep buying it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:00:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ctprelude:
I would just ditch the SA ammo. I've put over 1000 rounds of Wolf through my Bushmaster M4gery so far without any failures. That includes a lot of rapid firing as well with no problems. It's great ammo for plinking and is damn cheap, so I'll keep buying it.



Yep. I plan on getting rid of the South African ammo.

I plan on sending it all down range through my rifle.

I just won't mix it and Wolf in the same shooting session.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:54:36 AM EDT
Same here, I have had 2 stuck cases in the chamber the last 2 times I've shot with my Bushy using the new poly cased Wolf. Someone who helped me get it out said it was most likely a chamber fouling issue, and said after looking in the upper there wasn't enough lubrication for the bolt.

So I don't think it's the coating on the shell, although the Brass I use never do this.

-mark
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:00:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
Same here, I have had 2 stuck cases in the chamber the last 2 times I've shot with my Bushy using the new poly cased Wolf. Someone who helped me get it out said it was most likely a chamber fouling issue, and said after looking in the upper there wasn't enough lubrication for the bolt.

So I don't think it's the coating on the shell, although the Brass I use never do this.

-mark



Yes. I believe that Troy's explaination is correct, as it explains how the build-up in the chamber occures.

I will try to come up with a way to test this theory and see what works best to clean the chamber.

Either way, I will not mix Wolf and brass in the same shooting session.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:33:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Likely, neither ammo would be a problem on its own, but mixing them is clearly bad news.






Troy hit it on the head.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:14:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:29:11 PM EDT
I'm inclined to agree with CB1. Actually, I've been running the same ammo sequence as Old_Painless since Poly became available.

My experience with Wolf Poly and SA (mine is mostly '83) is contrary. These two ammo types constitute 99+% of my M16 fodder. I have run hundreds rds to as much as 1000 rds or so of Wolf through various Colt uppers with both 1:7 and 1:12 twists. And I have then "washed them down" with SA and/or SA mixed with tracer (I like the fireballs). I have not seen so much as a flake of carbon on any of the SA brass, nor have I had a crud related failure to extract/torn rim, etc.

I am not in the habit of cleaning/lubing until all shooting is done.

I think Troy's explanation........as always.........is a good one. But I wonder if there might be some additional mitigating circumstance such as a rough chamber; or perhaps this problem occurs only with certain specific lots of SA after alot of crud buildup.

I'll be very interested to hear if O_P gets the same result with other M193 lots.

Sam
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:39:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:43:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:

Hey O_P...

I'm down to around 7000 rounds of SA, so I am considering starting a home for wayward SA surplus. If you like, I will even pay shipping from TX to FL just so you can ditch that stuff!

Always helpful...that's me!



The Brown Truck of Happiness runs both ways.

Send it to Texas.

I'll be waiting.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:51:08 PM EDT
Here's a twist to the issue

When I first test fired my AR 15 Pistol , I was ONLY using Wolf.
Had both lacquer and polymer wolf in a bunch of mags.

After maybe 200 rds without cleaning I had 1 round where the extractor ripped off
part of the rim.

A rod popped the case right out though.

That pistol upper was also run on a DIAS Lower with NO problems

Was Dirty as Heck when I finished shooting
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:11:54 AM EDT
I was posting about stuff like this back on August 9th, 2004. I belive Troy does indeed have the WHY nailed down , but it isn't just limited to switching ammo . I belive it is the olf itself as a problem .

In fact here is a thread with pics on THR regarding this stuff .

thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=96062&highlight=wolf
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:28:43 AM EDT
FWIW, weekend before last, I had the exact same problem. I fired probably 200 rounds or so of some Wolf I had left, then switched to Olympic m193 (yes I know, I bought it before I saw the tests and reviews here) and had a stuck case. I blamed the ammo, but had shot it previously with no problems. I was worried it might be a chamber issue, but wonder if the switching also caused the problem in mine.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:00:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:26:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By donovan007007:
I'm sorry............. I dont see why you dont just throw away the African Ball ammo. I wouldnt even use wolf...........sorry, it sux. I love my guns too much to mistreat them in that manner.



That's cool. I'll just shoot your share of Wolf up too.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:39:40 AM EDT
Just ran to the range to see about this...

ran a couple hundred rounds of Wolf poly 55 gr. fmj thru, then tried to do a magazine of Win CXP1 45gr. jhps, to see if the fouling from the Wolf would cause functionality problems. No dice, ran fine. When I took the rifle apart to clean it, it was not really any dirtier than when I run a few hundred rounds of Rem Umc 55 gr. fmj thru. Maybe some lots are dirtier than others? I might add I have a Wylde chamber.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:53:43 AM EDT
I only run Wolf through my SKS, which will shoot dog crap and not F-up.
Thank you, I will not look at Wolf in any other Cal.

Bill H.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:56:07 AM EDT
I shoot Wolf in my MAC, UZI, and AK's. My M16 will not cycle the Wolf worth a SHIT. I still have 500 rounds of .223 Wolf (Polymer). If I actually shot my Mini-14's any more I would try the wolf in it...MadDog
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:34:13 PM EDT
Nice to see someone post this, this is exactly what happened to me at the range with my M4gery, Wolf and SA battlepack = problems.
Now if i can get the damn thing to cycle the next round correctly, I can use it more often.....
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:50:06 AM EDT
Okay, an update.

Went to the range today for further testing. I used the same rifle as before. I shot about 80 rounds of Wolf, loaded a round of South African, waited about 15 seconds, and then fired it. It ejected, but the rim was bent where the extractor grabbed it. See photo below, at about 2 o'clock on the rim. (Not a really clear pic, but it is more obvious in person.)



I also noted the carbon on the side of the case.



It was not as bad as earlier this week, but I had given the chamber a really good scrubbing with a chamber brush and carburetor cleaner.

I then loaded up and shot another 25 rounds of Wolf and tried a round of XM-193. Then the same with a round of Israeli Ball. Neither failed to eject.

Here's the photo:



The SA is on top, then the XM-193, then the Israeli Ball.

Notice how they get less "carboned-up" as they go. I think that shooting only 25-30 rounds of Wolf between tests did not dirty up the chamber very much. Also, shooting the brass seemed to "catch" most of the carbon and remove it from the chamber.

Some have suggested that firing the military ball in brass cases might help to "clean" the AR system after shooting the Wolf. This test seems to confirm that theory.

Conclusion: South African Ball seems to be brittle and more susceptible to the breaking off of the rim, when fired in a dirty chamber after shooting Wolf.

Oh well, an interesting day at the range.

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 11:07:33 AM EDT
Thanks for the update O_P
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 11:15:55 AM EDT
Well hot damn! Somebody else has had the exact same problems as me. I have the exact same problems with Wolf and South African. I will rip the rim off a case even in a clean 5.56 chamber. Wolf and SA are the only two brands I have this problem with. See this topic for more details: archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=236834. MJD
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 12:52:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 12:53:43 PM EDT by AKsRule]
Soooo , if we attempt to draw a logical conclusion from your limited tests , we could at least
theorize
that some SA ammo will extact less reliably as your chamber gets dirty.

In fact , we could say that it is Less reliable than Wolf
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 1:31:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
Soooo , if we attempt to draw a logical conclusion from your limited tests , we could at least
theorize
that some SA ammo will extact less reliably as your chamber gets dirty.

In fact , we could say that it is Less reliable than Wolf



Mark Twain once observed, "A cat that sits on a hot stove lid once, won't sit on another one. But he won't sit on a cold one either."

We should be careful not to "learn too much" from any test.

But in my case, I am convinced that if I shoot a lot of Wolf and dirty up my chamber and don't clean it. And I then shoot some South African Ball, I stand a good chance of sticking a round of brass in my guns chamber.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:32:08 PM EDT
I took a box of Wolf to the range yesterday. I cleaned the chamber and barrel good in the m4 and fired some Wolf. You could see carbon on the outside of the ejected hull from it not expanding and sealing off the gasses. Just like Troy said.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:48:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:52:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 3:54:29 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:54:03 PM EDT
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top