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Posted: 3/6/2011 6:13:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2011 12:07:22 PM EST by By_the_Bayonet]
I have an unfinished CMMG lower (it has its parts kit installed and a rifle length stock attached) laying around and since I already have a 5.56 M4gery and no .22, the idea
struck me to build it into a dedicated .22 AR. Since I've had a boner for retro ARs for as long as I can remember, I figured it would be cool to build a retro-styled .22 AR from
the lower I have.

What I plan on doing is taking off the trapdoor style buttstock and adding an older one from these guys, as well as an
M-16 style grip, triangular handguards, and a three prong flash hider. I'm also planning on getting a Colt 3x20 scope, if I can find one (I made a similar thread asking about those on this forum before).

Since I'm not shooting for total historical accuracy, and I want this to be more of a fun toy with the general look and feel of a retro rifle, I'm having trouble deciding
on an upper. I'm also having trouble making up my mind on some other issues, and I'm coming to you guys to help me out.

-First of all, (and I think I've asked this before. If not, I'm sure someone has, so forgive me) does anyone make A1 or A2 fixed carry handle-style
dedicated .22 uppers? CMMG makes nice .22 uppers, but they are flat top, and I don't want to mount a carry handle on it.

-Secondly, I'm tempted to make it a carbine with some of those mid length triangular handguards, but I can't seem to find them. Alternatively, I'm interested
in the reddish Bakelite furniture as well, but I don't know of any sources for it, either.

-Third, if I went with rifle length triangular handguards... these, specifically do they just replace
the standard handguards, or do I need some kind of triangular cap to hold them on?

-Fourth, does anyone make 20 round .22 AR mags that work with dedicated uppers?

-Finally, has anyone on here done something like this before? Pictures, links, admonishments, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, folks. And do feel free to direct me elsewhere if my questions have already been answered.
Link Posted: 3/6/2011 7:52:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2011 3:49:55 PM EST by somebob]
There is an abundance of information in a rimfire thread, so much so it is difficult to comprehend it all. I bought a used dedicated 22LR upper off the EE and have been happy with it. The bolt and carbine length barrel are M1 Sales, the bolt didn't work well at first because the extractor didn't reach far enough in to grab the rim. After taking it apart and cleaning it everything started to work fine. I don't like carbines so I had my friend pin and weld a FSB near the end of the barrel to make it look like a 605 barrel. It turned out well, I have a description of what we did on page 21 of this "pics" thread. (search for somebob)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=282937&page=21

Sorry for how ugly it looks right now, I'm in the process of making it look more 605-ish but I don't have a good upper receiver for it right now. If you don't mind spending a little more I think Ballistic Advantage can make any length barrel you want. Dedicated 22LR is a great way to make a 605 clone because the barrel sits in the receiver further and you don't have to pin a flash hider to get 16 inches. The hand guards in the "before" picture are fake 607 style hand guards. If you go that route I would seek out the Total Silence rear end cap method where you cut down a set of normal hand guards. (google "total slience" for more info) Rifle length hand guards will not fit unless you mount a FSB further down the barrel like I did.

EDIT: I just noticed your mag question, I think the only one that uses a 20 round magazine is a M261 conversion bolt and the corresponding 10 round inserts. That kit positions the rounds very far forward so they are able to fit the adapter inside a mag, all other conversions are further back and could not fit in a mag. I have used a M261 kit in a "regular" rifle, it works well and you get the good looks of the 20 round mags.

Everyone else is posting their pics so I may as well too.

Before


After

Full width image
Link Posted: 3/6/2011 9:23:10 PM EST
Thanks so much for your response!

Your first picture is basically what I'm leaning towards, only I'm planning on adding the 3x20 scope and a three prong flash hider.

Personally, I don't like the 605 look (it reminds me too much of a retro Dissipator, which I just don't find aesthetically pleasing, for whatever reason, though
yours looks pretty nice, especially with that schmexy black Bakelite).

The first incarnation of your rifle.... now I'm really not up to snuff on early M-16 nomenclature, but did that style of rifle ever have an equivalent in the US military?
...with the short triangular handguards and the rifle stock? Also, another thing that concerns me about both of these incarnations is the lack of bayonet mount-ability. That alone makes me
want to stick with the regular 20" configuration, in a way.

Also, I have heard from other sources that Model 1 Sales is hit or miss. Your experience sounds positive, after a good cleaning, but do you (or anyone else here) know if this is true?

Thanks again for the links and information. I appreciate it!
Link Posted: 3/7/2011 6:41:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2011 6:47:34 AM EST by 44Echo10]
CMMG is coming out with a 20 inch A2 profile barrel. The upper is listed on their site for preorder. They are supposed to be offering the barrel separately the same as the M4 profile they offer. A1 upper receivers are out there and it is very easy to put an upper together to your likings. The only other 20 inch barrel I know of is from Model1Sales in a heavy profile. Ballistic Advantage can do custom builds but seem to be hard to contact, judging from this thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=518579.
Link Posted: 3/7/2011 10:05:57 AM EST
Ever since I got mine I haven't been paying attention to what barrels are available, do some research and see what is out there. I recommend spending more to get the length / profile you really want, the little things that were "wrong" with mine bothered me over time so I had my friend weld over them. Mine is still "wrong" because the barrel is too thin between the FSB legs. If you get a modern profile barrel and have to pay to have it turned down you will probably spend as much as it costs to get a Ballistic Advantage barrel. The bayo lug was cut off mine when I got it because it came from NY, 605s don't have bayo lugs either because there is not enough barrel left for support.
Link Posted: 3/7/2011 12:03:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2011 12:06:10 PM EST by F4ENUT]
Just played with my CMMG 16 inch M4 22lr barrel and you can make a passable 605 barrel out of it. The flash hider screws down against the front sight base holding the triangle hand guards in place and the set screws hold the FSB in place. I need to change the A2 upper and get a buffer tube to put a D stock on it.
Link Posted: 3/7/2011 6:36:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By 44Echo10:
CMMG is coming out with a 20 inch A2 profile barrel. The upper is listed on their site for preorder. They are supposed to be offering the barrel separately the same as the M4 profile they offer. A1 upper receivers are out there and it is very easy to put an upper together to your likings. The only other 20 inch barrel I know of is from Model1Sales in a heavy profile. Ballistic Advantage can do custom builds but seem to be hard to contact, judging from this thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=518579.


Looks like that upper is flat top. So you are suggesting that I buy a 20 inch barrel and attach it to an A1 upper? How much do A1 uppers usually go for?


@everyone else, thanks for the suggestions so far.
Link Posted: 3/7/2011 7:33:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By By_the_Bayonet:
Originally Posted By 44Echo10:
CMMG is coming out with a 20 inch A2 profile barrel. The upper is listed on their site for preorder. They are supposed to be offering the barrel separately the same as the M4 profile they offer. A1 upper receivers are out there and it is very easy to put an upper together to your likings. The only other 20 inch barrel I know of is from Model1Sales in a heavy profile. Ballistic Advantage can do custom builds but seem to be hard to contact, judging from this thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=518579.


Looks like that upper is flat top. So you are suggesting that I buy a 20 inch barrel and attach it to an A1 upper? How much do A1 uppers usually go for?


@everyone else, thanks for the suggestions so far.


I skimmed through the post at first and thought you wanted a rifle upper rather than a carbine. If I couldn't find an upper off the shelf that satisfied me, I would build my own .


I also assume you want an older look or you wouldn't have asked in the retro forum. Also, be aware that CMMG uses a slighly smaller adapter collar diameter on their barrels than other rimfire bolts (Spikes, Model 1).

CMMG has .22 magazines that more closely resemble military magazines.

Below are links to early style "slick side" uppers that are available in black to better match your lower. Uppers with forward assist are technically "A1".

http://fulton-armory.com/upperreceivera1usginofanocd.aspx

NDS635U Black

There are also late style A1 uppers, forward assist, with built in brass deflectors available in black that are generally cheaper than the slick side uppers.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=137436&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Gunsmithing%20-%20AR-15%20Parts%20(Not%20Magazines)-_-PriceCompListing-_-137436

http://fulton-armory.com/upperreceivera1c7typeusgiwfaandcd.aspx
Link Posted: 3/7/2011 7:57:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2011 8:00:07 PM EST by 44Echo10]
Originally Posted By By_the_Bayonet:
I have an unfinished CMMG lower (it has its parts kit installed and a rifle length stock attached) laying around and since I already have a 5.56 M4gery and no .22, the idea struck me to build it into a dedicated .22 AR. Since I've had a boner for retro ARs for as long as I can remember, I figured it would be cool to build a retro-styled .22 AR from the lower I have.

What I plan on doing is taking off the trapdoor style buttstock and adding an older one from these guys, as well as an M-16 style grip, triangular handguards, and a three prong flash hider. I'm also planning on getting a Colt 3x20 scope, if I can find one (I made a similar thread asking about those on this forum before).

Since I'm not shooting for total historical accuracy, and I want this to be more of a fun toy with the general look and feel of a retro rifle, I'm having trouble deciding on an upper. I'm also having trouble making up my mind on some other issues, and I'm coming to you guys to help me out.

-First of all, (and I think I've asked this before. If not, I'm sure someone has, so forgive me) does anyone make A1 or A2 fixed carry handle-style dedicated .22 uppers? CMMG makes nice .22 uppers, but they are flat top, and I don't want to mount a carry handle on it.

-Secondly, I'm tempted to make it a carbine with some of those mid length triangular handguards, but I can't seem to find them. NoDak Spud has mid length triangular handguards

Alternatively, I'm interestedin the reddish Bakelite furniture as well, but I don't know of any sources for it, either.

-Third, if I went with rifle length triangular handguards... these, specifically do they just replace
the standard handguards, or do I need some kind of triangular cap to hold them on?
Rifle handguards A1 triangular or A2 round both use a triangular front handguard cap

-Fourth, does anyone make 20 round .22 AR mags that work with dedicated uppers?
CMMG Has the closest thing to GI mags

-Finally, has anyone on here done something like this before? Pictures, links, admonishments, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, folks. And do feel free to direct me elsewhere if my questions have already been answered.


Link Posted: 3/8/2011 12:54:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By 44Echo10:
Originally Posted By By_the_Bayonet:
Originally Posted By 44Echo10:
CMMG is coming out with a 20 inch A2 profile barrel. The upper is listed on their site for preorder. They are supposed to be offering the barrel separately the same as the M4 profile they offer. A1 upper receivers are out there and it is very easy to put an upper together to your likings. The only other 20 inch barrel I know of is from Model1Sales in a heavy profile. Ballistic Advantage can do custom builds but seem to be hard to contact, judging from this thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=518579.


Looks like that upper is flat top. So you are suggesting that I buy a 20 inch barrel and attach it to an A1 upper? How much do A1 uppers usually go for?


@everyone else, thanks for the suggestions so far.


I skimmed through the post at first and thought you wanted a rifle upper rather than a carbine. If I couldn't find an upper off the shelf that satisfied me, I would build my own .


I also assume you want an older look or you wouldn't have asked in the retro forum. Also, be aware that CMMG uses a slighly smaller adapter collar diameter on their barrels than other rimfire bolts (Spikes, Model 1).

CMMG has .22 magazines that more closely resemble military magazines.

Below are links to early style "slick side" uppers that are available in black to better match your lower. Uppers with forward assist are technically "A1".

http://fulton-armory.com/upperreceivera1usginofanocd.aspx

NDS635U Black

There are also late style A1 uppers, forward assist, with built in brass deflectors available in black that are generally cheaper than the slick side uppers.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=137436&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Gunsmithing%20-%20AR-15%20Parts%20(Not%20Magazines)-_-PriceCompListing-_-137436

http://fulton-armory.com/upperreceivera1c7typeusgiwfaandcd.aspx


Yeah, I may not have been completely clear on that... I'm actually most interested in building a 20" rifle, but I would be happy with a carbine with modified carbine-length triangular handguards. Thanks for the info and the links.

Originally Posted By 44Echo10:
Originally Posted By By_the_Bayonet:
I have an unfinished CMMG lower (it has its parts kit installed and a rifle length stock attached) laying around and since I already have a 5.56 M4gery and no .22, the idea struck me to build it into a dedicated .22 AR. Since I've had a boner for retro ARs for as long as I can remember, I figured it would be cool to build a retro-styled .22 AR from the lower I have.

What I plan on doing is taking off the trapdoor style buttstock and adding an older one from these guys, as well as an M-16 style grip, triangular handguards, and a three prong flash hider. I'm also planning on getting a Colt 3x20 scope, if I can find one (I made a similar thread asking about those on this forum before).

Since I'm not shooting for total historical accuracy, and I want this to be more of a fun toy with the general look and feel of a retro rifle, I'm having trouble deciding on an upper. I'm also having trouble making up my mind on some other issues, and I'm coming to you guys to help me out.

-First of all, (and I think I've asked this before. If not, I'm sure someone has, so forgive me) does anyone make A1 or A2 fixed carry handle-style dedicated .22 uppers? CMMG makes nice .22 uppers, but they are flat top, and I don't want to mount a carry handle on it.

-Secondly, I'm tempted to make it a carbine with some of those mid length triangular handguards, but I can't seem to find them. NoDak Spud has mid length triangular handguards

Alternatively, I'm interestedin the reddish Bakelite furniture as well, but I don't know of any sources for it, either.

-Third, if I went with rifle length triangular handguards... these, specifically do they just replace
the standard handguards, or do I need some kind of triangular cap to hold them on?
Rifle handguards A1 triangular or A2 round both use a triangular front handguard cap

-Fourth, does anyone make 20 round .22 AR mags that work with dedicated uppers?
CMMG Has the closest thing to GI mags

-Finally, has anyone on here done something like this before? Pictures, links, admonishments, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, folks. And do feel free to direct me elsewhere if my questions have already been answered.




Thanks for the links. Do those triangular handguard caps typically come with the handguards? I haven't seen them on any websites. Is it easy to replace the circular cap with the triangular ones? Thanks again.

Link Posted: 3/8/2011 1:30:37 PM EST
Here's what I did, got the 16" dedicated barrel from Model'1'Sales 16-1 twist, also got the bolt at the same time.
Hand guards came from Harland...as best I recall.
This makes a really light/neat 22, its really very plain and simple, and lends itself to the 'Retro" look.
Here are some pictures..Its my 601 carbine :O)




Link Posted: 3/8/2011 2:46:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2011 2:54:33 PM EST by 44Echo10]
http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=7

Handguard caps are available from Bushmaster, when you add the item to the cart it gives the option for standard (.625") or heavy (.750") diameter barrels. You can sometimes find them in the Equipment Exchange or gunshows as take offs from de-mil barrels.






I'm going to put a CMMG M4 .22 barrel on this ^^, and call it an AF GAU-5ish rebuild
Link Posted: 3/8/2011 3:42:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By skychair:
Here's what I did, got the 16" dedicated barrel from Model'1'Sales 16-1 twist, also got the bolt at the same time.
Hand guards came from Harland...as best I recall.
This makes a really light/neat 22, its really very plain and simple, and lends itself to the 'Retro" look.
Here are some pictures..Its my 601 carbine :O)

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL294/1488357/23557693/388014948.jpg
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL294/1488357/23557693/388014951.jpg
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL294/1488357/23557693/388014954.jpg
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL294/1488357/23557693/387471322.jpg


That's pretty much what my second idea for a retro .22 build was! That looks awesome!

Originally Posted By 44Echo10:
http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=7

Handguard caps are available from Bushmaster, when you add the item to the cart it gives the option for standard (.625") or heavy (.750") diameter barrels. You can sometimes find them in the Equipment Exchange or gunshows as take offs from de-mil barrels.




http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae318/44Echo10/AR/102_0495.jpg

I'm going to put a CMMG M4 .22 barrel on this ^^, and call it an AF GAU-5ish rebuild


Sweetttttt... Looking good so far! And thanks for the info on caps...
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 11:59:01 AM EST
Went shopping today and bought an A1 pistol grip, an A1 (I think) stock which I thought was pretty cool because of the numbers on it, and a CMMG conversion kit that came with two magazines.

Now that I've actually started to dive into this project, I'm looking to you guys again to tell me what you think about my decisions/nudge me in the right direction.

Now before I bombard you guys with questions, here's a pic of what I have so far:



Since I don't really have much direction on where I want to go from here and I'm pretty much just trying to make a badass retro-inspired range toy, I'm kind of waffling on what to purchase next.

I'm almost certainly going to get an A1 C7 upper from Fulton Armory, as well as the parts needed to finish it.



Dealing with the barrel is where I'm having trouble.

Option A
I'm really interested in the XM177 style barrel from Model 1 Sales.
If I went that route, I'd get some triangular CAR handguards from this guy and call it a day. I'd have to buy a triangular handguard
cap in that case, then, wouldn't I? Basically, this would give me a full-stock XM177 knock-off with triangular handguards in .22 LR.



Option B
That said, I'm still wondering if I'd be better off just getting the CMMG Dedicated .22 barrel, and buying the FSB,
handguards, handguard cap, delta ring, 3-prong flash hider, and all that jazz and just putting it all together myself. In this case, I'd have a regular carbine and I'd probably use the NoDak spud mid-length triangular handguards.

Since I've only built lowers before, I'm confused about what all I need. If I just went with Option A, would I need anything else other than what all I linked to?

If I went with Option B, what all would I need? Would I be able to put the FSB on the barrel in the right place so NoDak's middy triangular handguards would fit?


Also, how hard is it to install a .22 barrel? Does it just screw in tightly, or do I need a crazy torque wrench or something?

Thanks for hearing me out guys. I'm kind of just talking out what I want in a stream of consciousness to flush out all the questions and concerns I have.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 1:57:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2011 2:24:51 PM EST by 44Echo10]
That particular barrel from Model1Sales has the muzzle device welded on permanantly. Carbine length handguards generally use round front caps. The short triangular handguards require a triangular front handguard cap to be installed. So you will not be able to remove the front sight base to install the cap. Looks like you are off to a good start though.

The barrel will need to be torqued, torque wrenches are not terribly expensive.

Where are you at in TN. I am in Northeast TN, near Jonesborough.

ETA: I think skychair has this lightweight barrel on his .22

ETA2: You will need an adapter collar for a dedicated barrel to replace your chamber adapter on the conversion kit. (the CMMG dedicated adapter only fits their barrels, they use a smaller diameter than the other companies)

ETA3: DEZ Arms has set screw FSB's
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 2:04:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By 44Echo10:
That particular barrel from Model1Sales has the muzzle device welded on permanantly. Carbine length handguards generally use round front caps. The short triangular handguards require a triangular front handguard cap to be installed. So you will not be able to remove the front sight base to install the cap. Looks like you are off to a good start though.

The barrel will need to be torqued, torque wrenches are not terribly expensive.

Where are you at in TN. I am in Northeast TN, near Jonesborough.


Ah, that sucks. I didn't even think of that. I may just wind up going the other route then, and buying the CMMG dedicated barrel.

I live in East Knoxville.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 2:22:35 PM EST
That's a couple hours drive. If we were closer I'd be glad to help you. You may ask in the hometown forum and see if anyone closer has the tools and experience to help you assemble your barrel.

I added some info in my last post.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 2:58:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By 44Echo10:
That's a couple hours drive. If we were closer I'd be glad to help you. You may ask in the hometown forum and see if anyone closer has the tools and experience to help you assemble your barrel.

I added some info in my last post.


Thanks for all your info, you've been very helpful.

If I got the barrel from Model 1 that you linked to that skychair might have used, what would I have to do with that dedicated collar? Does it replace a part on my CMMG conversion part I bought today, or does it attach
to the .22 barrel in some way? Sorry to inundate you with questions... I've built lowers before, but all the stuff that goes into assembling uppers from scratch is way over my head
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 3:21:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By By_the_Bayonet:
Originally Posted By 44Echo10:
That's a couple hours drive. If we were closer I'd be glad to help you. You may ask in the hometown forum and see if anyone closer has the tools and experience to help you assemble your barrel.

I added some info in my last post.


Thanks for all your info, you've been very helpful.

If I got the barrel from Model 1 that you linked to that skychair might have used, what would I have to do with that dedicated collar? Does it replace a part on my CMMG conversion part I bought today, or does it attach
to the .22 barrel in some way? Sorry to inundate you with questions... I've built lowers before, but all the stuff that goes into assembling uppers from scratch is way over my head


The chamber adapter on the front of the .22 kit (shaped like a .223 shell) is removed, being careful not to bend the rails. Then the collar snaps on in its place. Look at the pics of the dedicated .22 barrels and you will see the area where the collar slides onto the barrel. Model1 also has the collars, just have to give them a call as I'm not sure if they are listed on the website, whichever barrel you decide on get the collar from that company. The CMMG barrel comes with a collar included.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 3:30:54 PM EST
Thank you so much. That makes sense.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 5:50:01 PM EST
If you go with the Model1Sales barrel you will need: an adapter collar, a delta ring kit (delta ring, spring, snap ring), a flash hider, a lock washer for the FH, and a set of handguards


If you go with the CMMG stripped barrel (adapter collar is included) you will need: a barrel nut, a delta ring kit, a flash hider, a lock washer for the FH, a set of handguards, a handguard cap, a front sight base


The price will probably end up working out to be about the same either way. Try to get as much from the same place to save on shipping costs which can add up.
Link Posted: 3/13/2011 10:55:50 PM EST
That's just what I was looking for. You've been a tremendous help, good sir. I'll update this thread or start a new one as I make progress and as I decide what to do. Thanks again.
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