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Posted: 7/25/2017 2:30:08 PM EST
I'm sure this is beat to death, but I figured what the heck..... I've been shooting and fondling my recce more lately and I kind of wish I had different glass. But the grass is always greener.

If only I could afford a 4x acog with a mini RDS on top. For some reason I feel like that would be ideal. I like the idea of the Elcan too. Seems like there's not really a point to 2 or 3 power on a 1-4.

I have a 2x7 on it now and I like the extra power when shooting for groups. But I'm not sure it's overly practical. I would probably prefer a 1-4 for most situations. But like I said, I almost think an ACOG with an mini RDS on top would be better.


So.... who's making a poor mans version of the elcan? That weighs less.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 2:39:42 PM EST
Not sure there is a best. I have an ACOG, a Comp M3, and a Trijicon 1x6. Each is good in its own right and best is subjective. If I was going to war, I would take the ACOG. If I was going to an uncertain situation where targets are unknown -- probably the 1x6. If I am defending the house -- the M3.

Different optics for different situations. Sorry -- not sure this is much help.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 2:43:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2017 2:49:38 PM EST by Alaskanforfreedom]
Originally Posted By JJREA:
I'm sure this is beat to death, but I figured what the heck..... I've been shooting and fondling my recce more lately and I kind of wish I had different glass. But the grass is always greener.

If only I could afford a 4x acog with a mini RDS on top. For some reason I feel like that would be ideal. I like the idea of the Elcan too. Seems like there's not really a point to 2 or 3 power on a 1-4.

I have a 2x7 on it now and I like the extra power when shooting for groups. But I'm not sure it's overly practical. I would probably prefer a 1-4 for most situations. But like I said, I almost think an ACOG with an mini RDS on top would be better.

So.... who's making a poor mans version of the elcan? That weighs less.
View Quote
Wolf PSU 1/4x. No.  4X ACOGs and other such prism sights with a mini reflex are going to be the closest you will get to the Elcan and lightweight. There doesn't seem to be much that beats a red dot for building clearing and a variable 1-4,6 for anything outside that can be pressed into the role of building clearing and used fairly effectively. I really like the 1-4 for anything out to 300 meters. I'm going to try to get myself out of my comfort zone and try it for point blank inside a building. 
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 3:15:54 PM EST
That wolf is even heavier. Much cheaper though.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 3:29:48 PM EST
For MY purposes, which may or may not be relevant to YOUR purposes an Aimpoint M3.

Short of some apocalyptic fantasy I will never use an AR defensively OR offensively outside of 200yds.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 4:16:34 PM EST
How much lighter does it have to be?
My Elcan only weighs 1/2 ounce more than my 1-6 with mount. And it has built-in BUIS.
So, lighter overall.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 4:55:09 PM EST
I like 2-7 scopes. I have two Leupold European-30 scopes (now discontinued) that are perfect for use on AR-15's. 1.5-5's or 2.5-8's work great also.

I use Aimpoint's on half my rifles, the scopes listed above on the other half.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 5:18:53 PM EST
I'd go with an Aimpoint. I'm good out to 200+ yards and it's fast up close. Anything further I'm getting out.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 5:37:21 PM EST
I fought it for the longest time but I'm fully on board with the LPV crew. True 1x to 4x/6x.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 5:38:40 PM EST
For me it's the Aimpoint T2

I own guns setup with Nightforce and Trijicon 1-4, Leupold 3-12, and numerous Aimpoints

The red dot can do anything I need from 0-250 yards. Throw a magnifier behind it for the distance stuff
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 5:42:46 PM EST
MRO
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 5:45:17 PM EST
IMO, I think General Purpose is hard to define so I think you should get an optic that best matches what kind of shooting you actually do. Plinking, Hunting, Competition, Training.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 6:00:03 PM EST
If I have to choose only one for an AR it's going to be a TA31 4x ACOG with a chevron reticle.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 6:18:12 PM EST
If I want small groups I use a scope. If the targets really big, a red dot is okay.

My favorite carbines have those old SUIT optics on them.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 7:09:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2017 7:10:18 PM EST by sgav8r44]
You said "poor mans" version... so this would probably be what I'd look at if I wanted an uber-inexpensive optic of that type. Plus I think this new FDE version looks really nice!

Primary Arms 3X FDE
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 7:23:55 PM EST
Any Aimpoint.. I can fuck some shit up from 0 out to 300meters + and with a little distance... I can tag someone further.
Works day or night.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 8:13:14 PM EST
The ACOG with an RMR is a poor mans Elcan.

Elcan Specter DR is 23.28oz

ACOG is 9.9oz, RMR is 1.2oz

Elcans are just too damn heavy.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 8:14:20 PM EST
variable power 1x - whatever
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 8:20:55 PM EST
I guess it depends on what you generally use an AR for.

I punch paper and shoot hogs and coyotes, so my best general purpose AR is an 18" SPR with a 4-16 on it.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 8:41:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2017 9:45:32 PM EST by Tigwelder1971]
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 9:03:22 PM EST
Ta31rco is the only optic anyone needs. I have used eotech, aimpoint and vortex. Acog is best
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 9:04:38 PM EST
MRO or ACOG for me, depending on the situation. I'd go with the ACOG all around, but I just think in a SHTF scenario, you'd be more likely to shoot close in than very far out. That favors the MRO.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 9:40:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 9:50:18 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By samuse:
I guess it depends on what you generally use an AR for.

I punch paper and shoot hogs and coyotes, so my best general purpose AR is an 18" SPR with a 4-16 on it.
View Quote
You shoot running hogs with a low magnification of 4x?
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 9:58:40 PM EST
2-7x might not be trendy, but it's a pretty good choice for a general purpose optic, especially if the purposes are those for which ARs are actually generally used.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 10:07:53 PM EST
Just add a 45 degree offset min reflex red dot to your 2-7x and you are good to go.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 10:50:32 PM EST
Ta33 by far. Best all around.
Link Posted: 7/25/2017 10:52:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2017 10:53:47 PM EST by JJREA]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cttb:
2-7x might not be trendy, but it's a pretty good choice for a general purpose optic, especially if the purposes are those for which ARs are actually generally used.
View Quote
This is probably true. The only reason I personally lust for an ACOG is clearer glass, looks cool, and it moves the weight to the rear more. Balances better. And the reticle that accounts for bullet drop. But the power of a 2x7 is not really the problem. Even inside the house the 2x isn't that bad.
Link Posted: 7/26/2017 1:50:23 AM EST
The WPA PSU 1x/4x is the only switchable magnification alternative to the ELCAN. It's on clearance for $699 if you can find one.

All the other recommendations above are fixed magnification or convention scopes, and none of them could match the PSU's field of view or it lever switchable zoom function.

plus, none use Schott glass......yes, the PSU features Zeiss optical glass.
Link Posted: 7/27/2017 10:24:14 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Macumazahn:
Ta33 by far. Best all around.
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Do you find yourself able to do close up work with it? Both eyes open or BAC.
Link Posted: 7/27/2017 11:31:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/27/2017 11:31:33 AM EST by edwin907]
TA11C for my 16" firing MK262.

Link Posted: 7/27/2017 1:36:11 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By edwin907:
TA11C for my 16" firing MK262.

http://www.opsinc.us/images/opsinc-12th.jpg
View Quote
Yeah, that looks like really really good.

What about you Edwin, does it work for closer range for you? Or do you feel like you need a mini rds on an offset or something......
Link Posted: 7/27/2017 1:52:13 PM EST
What exactly 'general purpose' entails will vary for different people, but for me a red dot sight is still the best choice.
Link Posted: 7/27/2017 3:14:23 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By edwin907:
TA11C for my 16" firing MK262.

http://www.opsinc.us/images/opsinc-12th.jpg
View Quote
Same here. One ta11f red on 5.56 and ta11C red on .308. Almost red dot fast for me with. Org eyes open. Close eye, focus and good withBDC out to 400easy.
Link Posted: 7/27/2017 3:26:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/27/2017 3:29:32 PM EST by Caeser2001]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By alpha0815:
I fought it for the longest time but I'm fully on board with the LPV crew. True 1x to 4x/6x.
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Originally Posted By alpha0815:
I fought it for the longest time but I'm fully on board with the LPV crew. True 1x to 4x/6x.
I did too. I was in the Acog camp, specifically the TA33 forever. The Steiner P4XI changed that with good glass, daylight bright reticle, good eyebox and good fov. To answer the OP, a 1-4 is my opinion.

Originally Posted By JJREA:
Originally Posted By Macumazahn:
Ta33 by far. Best all around.
Do you find yourself able to do close up work with it? Both eyes open or BAC.
Yes. It's very fast, for a fixed power optic close in, because it's so small, it takes up almost none of your eyes field of view.
Link Posted: 7/27/2017 4:03:48 PM EST
I have a few variables and fixed power scopes and I keep falling back to the fixed option.
Link Posted: 7/27/2017 4:47:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/27/2017 4:49:54 PM EST by DonofKalifornia]
My choices would be the Steiner P4Xi, an Aimpoint PRO, or Luepold VX-R either the Hog Plex or the 2-7 ballistic Hunter.

Each has a good reason to make it a shtf scope.

I consider general purpose to be from 3 yds to 250-300 yds. Targets about the size of a 'C' zone target (12x18")
Link Posted: 7/27/2017 4:54:11 PM EST
I have one of almost everything.  I really like the Bushnell Mark AR scopes.  I can be poor anywhere I want. 
Link Posted: 7/27/2017 10:02:20 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JJREA:
Do you find yourself able to do close up work with it? Both eyes open or BAC.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JJREA:
Originally Posted By Macumazahn:
Ta33 by far. Best all around.
Do you find yourself able to do close up work with it? Both eyes open or BAC.
Yes, I can work keep both eyes open and pick up the aiming point pretty fast. Not quite as fast as a red dot. Being in daylight helps this a lot, as the fiber optics really brighten things up and make seeing the red really easy. If not in much light, then the tritium will show up, but it is definitely not as bright. Glass is very clear on mine.

The Ta33 is a good closer medium range optic, but since the question was a single best general purpose optic, this is my favorite. Very rugged, mutiple non battery methods of illumination.
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 7:19:27 AM EST
General purpose would probably be a 1-4x. The steiner seems to be popular and a good price.

If for strictly defensive purposes, a civilian should never need more than an aimpoint(or whichever red dot tickles your fancy.)
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 8:18:25 AM EST
If was to pick only one Optic, it would be the ACOG, or if you're on a budget something along the lines of the Primary Arms 3x prism sight. With practice you can use the ACOG like a red dot instead of adding even more weight int he form of a mini red dot.

Link Posted: 7/28/2017 8:24:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/28/2017 10:09:04 AM EST by PossumKing]
It depends on what you consider to be your general purpose AR.
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 10:45:34 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PossumKing:
It depends on what you consider to be your general purpose AR.
View Quote
I hear ya, but what I said was "In your mind". So basically what do you think general purpose means. I like to hear all the different responses. Yes, that may change for some people, but I'm OK with that.
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 11:01:49 AM EST
To me, general purpose means taking the last 1000 rounds you fired and tailoring your optic choice to that. To me, that means competition. If I extend it out to the last 5000 rounds fired, that means competition, training class and coyote hunting.
I'm exclusively using 1-6x scopes now as my other optics sit on the shelf with the exception of a red dot on my PCC.
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 11:20:22 AM EST
it depends what your general purpose is for sure. Mine was competition, with everything from 1 yard targets to 10" targets at 400+ yards. I went with a 1-4. I can run it like a dot or zoom in.

I was thinking like you that I wouldn't use anything but either end, but that turned out to not be the case. I'm between 1-4 way more than I'm at 4. hell even 2x makes everything easier to see but still keeps a really wide field of view. I would dial the scope in to whatever would still show me 2 targets in the array, that way I wasn't spending time shooting the same one twice and I was less likely to skip targets.

If I could only have one optic or one rifle even I would be hard pressed to use anything but a 1-x. a dot is great, but something that helps with target identification or precision at distance is needed. A red dot will probably get you a hit on torso at 200 yards, but even a 4x (and my young eyes) would let me pick an eye. sometimes needed, sometimes not.
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 1:21:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cttb:
2-7x might not be trendy, but it's a pretty good choice for a general purpose optic, especially if the purposes are those for which ARs are actually generally used.
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If a 2-7x LPV is good, then a 1-8x should be even better.
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 3:32:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sniper3142:
If a 2-7x LPV is good, then a 1-8x should be even better.
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Originally Posted By Sniper3142:
Originally Posted By cttb:
2-7x might not be trendy, but it's a pretty good choice for a general purpose optic, especially if the purposes are those for which ARs are actually generally used.
If a 2-7x LPV is good, then a 1-8x should be even better.
The problem with 1-8 is the very small exit when you at 8 power. The 2-7 gather a lot more light due to the large bell and exit lens
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 5:21:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DonofKalifornia:
The problem with 1-8 is the very small exit when you at 8 power. The 2-7 gather a lot more light due to the large bell and exit lens
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Originally Posted By DonofKalifornia:
Originally Posted By Sniper3142:
Originally Posted By cttb:
2-7x might not be trendy, but it's a pretty good choice for a general purpose optic, especially if the purposes are those for which ARs are actually generally used.
If a 2-7x LPV is good, then a 1-8x should be even better.
The problem with 1-8 is the very small exit when you at 8 power. The 2-7 gather a lot more light due to the large bell and exit lens
And weight
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 6:29:27 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DefenderAO:
And weight
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Originally Posted By DefenderAO:
Originally Posted By DonofKalifornia:
Originally Posted By Sniper3142:
Originally Posted By cttb:
2-7x might not be trendy, but it's a pretty good choice for a general purpose optic, especially if the purposes are those for which ARs are actually generally used.
If a 2-7x LPV is good, then a 1-8x should be even better.
The problem with 1-8 is the very small exit when you at 8 power. The 2-7 gather a lot more light due to the large bell and exit lens
And weight
Yeah, the 1-8's do weight a lot. Weight doesn't really bother me since I shoot 3 gun so much with my Razor. I've had times I wish my Razor had a large exit lens.

My 6.8 has a Burris 1.5-6 on it and for what I paid for it it gathers light real well.
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 6:40:10 PM EST
The Swarovski z6i is the best all around optic, IMO. 1x is fantastic, gets nuclear bright, 6x is excellent, the glass is unreal, and it's pretty damn light for a 1-6.

I wouldn't even consider spending elcan money when there's much better LPVO's out there.

I've now had my Swarovski for a little over a year, that's a record for me as I swap optics like I swap underwear.

That optic will always have a place in my gunroom
Link Posted: 7/28/2017 6:47:46 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DefenderAO:


You shoot running hogs with a low magnification of 4x?
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Depends on where I'm hunting. If I'm on a place where it's close, I use a 1-4 or even an Aimpoint T2. Most of the time I'm out past 150 yards so the 4-16 on 6-10X is great.
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