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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/13/2005 1:54:39 PM EDT
Just wondering what types of practical benefits does the M855 round provide over the M193?

Just to clarify: SHTF situation--(hypothetical of course) looters(2-legged, 4 legged), proverbial JBT going house to house illegally confiscating weapons, possibly shoot out w/ said individuals.

I'm trying to figure out what scenarios would call for using this round? Seeing if maybe I should have a couple of mags pre-loaded and have them identifiable...

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 3:12:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 4:07:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JHill:
Just wondering what types of practical benefits does the M855 round provide over the M193?

Just to clarify: SHTF situation--(hypothetical of course) looters(2-legged, 4 legged), proverbial JBT going house to house illegally confiscating weapons, possibly shoot out w/ said individuals.

I'm trying to figure out what scenarios would call for using this round? Seeing if maybe I should have a couple of mags pre-loaded and have them identifiable...




With 14.5-20" barrels there is basically no difference inside of 100 meters except that M193 tends to fragment a bit more consistently.

Opt for M193 as it is:

Cheaper.
More likely to fragment.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 4:30:39 PM EDT
Slightly better penetration through armor or walls
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 4:51:46 PM EDT
At closer range the higher muzzle velocity of the M193 gives it an edge over the M855, even against materials like mild steel.

It's down range where the 62grn round comes onto it's own with better retained velocity/energy, that's where it's penetration abilities tip back into it's favor.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:01:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Templar:
Shoot outs with law enforcement....it wouldn't make any difference what ammo you used, you'd be dead.



Since every story I ever read about a shootout has most cops blasting off lots of rounds and not hitting their intended target, how do you figure?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 6:20:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dullh:

Originally Posted By Templar:
Shoot outs with law enforcement....it wouldn't make any difference what ammo you used, you'd be dead.



Since every story I ever read about a shootout has most cops blasting off lots of rounds and not hitting their intended target, how do you figure?



I imagine what Templar is trying to say is that when backup/SWAT arrives you will be outrageously outnumbered/outgunned.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 6:24:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Glack:

Originally Posted By dullh:

Originally Posted By Templar:
Shoot outs with law enforcement....it wouldn't make any difference what ammo you used, you'd be dead.



Since every story I ever read about a shootout has most cops blasting off lots of rounds and not hitting their intended target, how do you figure?



I imagine what Templar is trying to say is that when backup/SWAT arrives you will be outrageously outnumbered/outgunned.



I guess you're right, because the rank-and-file aren't as "dedicated"...besides, one mention of a man with an evil assault rifle every SWAT team for 100 miles would probably show up nowadays!
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 6:54:28 PM EDT
The only real bennefit would be if you are stocking boxed IMI M855, in that it would have a higher standard of quality control and reliability over XMXXX ammo.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 12:54:53 AM EDT
Let's bash some more cops. Hell it's like it's a favorite past time around here.

Let's see how YOU would do when people start trying to kill you. I bet you guys can shoot all x's at 200 yards with bullets flying past you right?

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 2:17:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dullh:
Since every story I ever read about a shootout has most cops blasting off lots of rounds and not hitting their intended target, how do you figure?



Randy Weaver and David Koresh would disagree.

So would the SLA, the guys in Philli and the LA Bank Robbers.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:08:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 5:24:28 AM EDT by PALADIN-hgwt]
ETA:staying on topic. M193 has a practical advantage of better availabilty and lower cost. With 1200 rds. of M855 running close to $300(ok, $280?), and 1K of M193 more like $200, you can store almost 50% more rounds of M193 for the same cost. Or store the same # of rounds, but shoot the extra getting lots more trigger time for training.

Paladin



Originally Posted By migradog:

Originally Posted By dullh:
Since every story I ever read about a shootout has most cops blasting off lots of rounds and not hitting their intended target, how do you figure?




, the guys in Philli .



I read that philthadelphias finest fired 10,000 rounds during the "Move" incident. After dropping a (fire?) bomb on the rooftop of a row house, the predictable ensuing inferno took out the entire block. And IIRC very few of the victims, including women and children, died of gun shot wounds...

Paladin
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:12:05 AM EDT
I'm sorry.

What was this thread about?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:26:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By migradog:

Originally Posted By dullh:
Since every story I ever read about a shootout has most cops blasting off lots of rounds and not hitting their intended target, how do you figure?



Randy Weaver and David Koresh would disagree.

So would the SLA, the guys in Philli and the LA Bank Robbers.



Really? Thousands if not tens of thousands of rounds expended. Perhaps a dozen hits here.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:51:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JHill:
Just wondering what types of practical benefits does the M855 round provide over the M193?



Enhanced penetration of hard barriers at long range. That's about it as far as I know.

So if your envisioned scenario involves shooting through WWII steel helmets at 500m, then M855 is your load. Otherwise, M193 is better overall for the reasons already stated.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:22:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dbrowne1:

Originally Posted By JHill:
Just wondering what types of practical benefits does the M855 round provide over the M193?



Enhanced penetration of hard barriers at long range. That's about it as far as I know.

So if your envisioned scenario involves shooting through WWII steel helmets at 500m, then M855 is your load. Otherwise, M193 is better overall for the reasons already stated.



BINGO! There are members with brain cell activity here!

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 9:01:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
Slightly better penetration through armor or walls



Not true at close range. It has REDUCED penetration at close ranges due to lower velocity.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 10:32:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
Slightly better penetration through armor or walls



Not true at close range. It has REDUCED penetration at close ranges due to lower velocity.



Another BINGO!!!!

GOD DAMN!!! This is the second intelligent post in one thread on AR15.com!

This has to be a record!!!
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:32:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
Slightly better penetration through armor or walls



Not true at close range. It has REDUCED penetration at close ranges due to lower velocity.



Another BINGO!!!!

GOD DAMN!!! This is the second intelligent post in one thread on AR15.com!

This has to be a record!!!



Must be effects from the The AR15.com Ammo Oracle
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:59:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 6:01:02 PM EDT by greenranger]

Originally Posted By Templar:
Shoot outs with law enforcement....it wouldn't make any difference what ammo you used, you'd be dead.



Tell that to the kid in Alabama with the SKS.

GR
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:25:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 6:28:23 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By Glack:

Originally Posted By dullh:

Originally Posted By Templar:
Shoot outs with law enforcement....it wouldn't make any difference what ammo you used, you'd be dead.



Since every story I ever read about a shootout has most cops blasting off lots of rounds and not hitting their intended target, how do you figure?



I imagine what Templar is trying to say is that when backup/SWAT arrives you will be outrageously outnumbered/outgunned.



If it is a SHTF gun grab, it will be a SWAT team coming to your house.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 7:22:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By migradog:

Originally Posted By dullh:
Since every story I ever read about a shootout has most cops blasting off lots of rounds and not hitting their intended target, how do you figure?



Randy Weaver and David Koresh would disagree.

So would the SLA, the guys in Philli and the LA Bank Robbers.



What do you have to back this? As others have stated, those cops in those incidents fired thosands of rounds, the vast majority with no effect. Not even close to being an accurate statement.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 7:59:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By colt100:
Let's bash some more cops. Hell it's like it's a favorite past time around here.

Let's see how YOU would do when people start trying to kill you. I bet you guys can shoot all x's at 200 yards with bullets flying past you right?




If you are not one of these:


Originally Posted By JHill:
proverbial JBT going house to house illegally confiscating weapons, possibly shoot out w/ said individuals.



then why are you concerned? How is it 'cop-bashing' when people don't want to be forcibly disarmed and then thrown down to the sodomites in the Rapedome? Sheepdog_556 has posted that he wouldn't disarm law-abiding citizens. What makes him different than you?

I'm so anti-LEO that I took a local retired LEO to the range to shoot my AR-15. He then bought one recently at a gun show and I've steered him to all the excellent information in the Ammo-oracle, Troy's Mag info, Dr. Fackler articles, etc.

JHill,

I went out and bought 1200 rnds of IMI M855 but I'm not sure why. Most shooting will occur between Zero and say 75 yards. Not that I can't shoot out further but it is unlikely. Others have already posted that at short ranges you are better off with XM193 of which I store thousands of rounds. Maybe you can keep a few mags loaded with M855. My 2 cents.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 8:23:27 PM EDT
Read the ammo-oracle,
over and over and over and over.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 8:35:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By migradog:

Originally Posted By dullh:
Since every story I ever read about a shootout has most cops blasting off lots of rounds and not hitting their intended target, how do you figure?



Randy Weaver and David Koresh would disagree.

So would the SLA, the guys in Philli and the LA Bank Robbers.



Soooo......Randy Weaver was only slightly injured (but that shot on his wife, that was awesome marksmanship...er, um, a horrible accident!), David Koresh was set afire while he was still alive, police expended 600 rounds at the LA bank robbers for a total of maybe 30 hits, most of which the armor stopped......

Just playing devils advocate here
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 8:37:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By colt100:
Let's bash some more cops. Hell it's like it's a favorite past time around here.

Let's see how YOU would do when people start trying to kill you. I bet you guys can shoot all x's at 200 yards with bullets flying past you right?




No, but I did go 4 for 8 and 8 for 8 on a maintenance man with a knife.....in two shootings......


Does simunitions count
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 4:17:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Soooo......Randy Weaver was only slightly injured (but that shot on his wife, that was awesome marksmanship...er, um, a horrible accident!),

Just playing devils advocate here



You are doing too good a job. I believe you would not find the tragic loss of your own wife such a trivial matter. She was unarmed, holding an infant child. Randy was awarded something like 3 million dollars for her death.

Paladin
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 5:59:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 6:01:46 AM EDT by bolster]
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