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Posted: 12/28/2006 8:43:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2006 5:56:47 AM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 12/28/2006 8:57:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2006 9:14:55 PM EDT by Stickman]
Link Posted: 12/28/2006 9:05:44 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By MRW:
photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=5205&iGalleryUnq=309&iImageUnq=51280

Here are my 3 ARs.  A M16A1 clone, a superlight 16", and an 11.5 pistol.

Don't get me wrong.  I like all the doo-dads like railed forends, optics, multiple rail attachments, and the like.  But I have detemined that unless I have a REAL NEED for such things, my money and time is better spent learning to use the simple AR system as well as I can.  By "real need" I mean finding myself in a shooting situation where I can not achieve my purpose WITHOUT the accessory or added feature.  I have a large rubbermaid foot locker full of nice stuff I have bought over the years, put on my rifle, and eventually taken off.  

I'm becomming more and more convinced that we have an "arms race" going on here on the board.  We race, not to become better USERS of our equipment, but to simply acquire "better" equipment.  It's an appearance or ego driven race rather than a need driven race.


If your true purpose of your ARs is to have a hobby buying/selling/collecting all kinds of the latest thing, then please disregard what I'm saying.

I'd like to pose an honest question for all of you, my arfcom friends.  Let's honestly consider the tactikool gear we have and seriously consider the value , in terms of NEED, it adds to our AR platform.  For example, consider your scope.  Do you have significant difficulty hitting what you're aiming at with iron sights that you really NEED the scope to do the job you are trying to do?  If so, fine.  If not, perhaps the money and time invested would be better spent on ammo and practice.  When I started asking myself this question I realized that I had a bunch of guns with seemingly useful gear, but was not particularly adept at operating most of them.  

Here's my conclusions so far.  My ARs are mainly for defensive/utilitarian purposes.
I don't need A2 sights.  A1 with an A2 aperture does the job.
I don't need a heavy barrel.  Even the pistol has a lightweight barrel
I don't need a telestock.  An A1 butt length is more practical for my shooting.
I do need a Levang brake on the pistol.  It directs a large percentage of the blast and noise away from me.  The Noveske is probably better, but not 5x better to justify the price
I prefer the Tango Down grip.  The 16A1 clone has its correct grip, and the A2 grip helps me hold on to the pistol since I can't shoulder it, so each has its purpose.
I have a rail on the 16" from previous doohickys, and left it on because OCCASIONALLY I like a vertical grip during extended shoots, and I might concieveably need the flashlight during a Katrina/SHTF scenario, and the holes in the handguard due to my hack job installing it are obnoxious if I take the rail off.
I do need the M4 handguards on the 16" because that is my "go to" rifle and during extended shoots it gets HOT with regular CAR handguards.
I took the slings off of them last night.  I have them handy if I need them.  but for most of my shooting, they get in the way.

I don't even need color in my picture.  ARs are black rifles.hat

A lot of excelent points. But may I politely suggest that a heavier bbl would infact handle heat better, whichever handguards you use? Just a thought. Also BTW, on your 11.5", for the ultimate in controling an AR pistol, try an ERGO AMBI w/ a small panel of skateboard tape on either side. I had the opportunity to try an AR pistol so equipped some time ago and thare was a noticable improvment in handling. DIY for under $30. I doubt you'll be disappointed.
Link Posted: 12/28/2006 9:21:46 PM EDT
Good post.

I'm becomming more and more convinced that we have an "arms race" going on here on the board. We race, not to become better USERS of our equipment, but to simply acquire "better" equipment. It's an appearance or ego driven race rather than a need driven race.
I agree to a certain extent. There's a lot of "keeping up with the Joneses" that goes on around here, but what the hell...

The stuff I've added onto my basic carbine is there because there is a need for it. Well, except for the Magpul trigger guard, but damnit, it looks so much better than the factory part, I just had to have it!
Link Posted: 12/28/2006 9:28:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2006 9:47:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2006 9:49:41 PM EDT by DBAR]
I somewhat agree with some points that you make.
I have a SBR with an 11.5" bbl.  I have 2 uppers for this.  One has all the gear.
Bushmaster flutted 1/7 HBAR, Phantom FS, Eotech 512 w/YHM riser, laser pointer, LMT BUIS, Surfire 120 lumen light, VG, and a Troy MRF-C to hold everything on.  The 2nd upper is a plane A2 with a CMMG Gov. contour bbl w/A2 FS.  I have the upper with all the gear on most of the time for around the house.  It comes in handy at night when the dog goes nuts about something outside, and for inside the house when you don't have time or the space to properly shoulder it.  The A2 upper is a good upper for the range.  I love the iron sights, and I'm a firm believer in the ability to use them properly.  I also love how little it weights with the A2 upper.

The other AR I have is FF'd with Dennys Recon bbl.  It sports a GG&G riser, BUIS, YHM flip front sight/gas block, CLE 2 stage trigger, and a Leupold 1-4x20 scope.  I like this one for 3 gun shoots.  It's a very accurate, well ballanced AR.  I also like how precise I can place a shot when I use my Nikon 4-12x40 scope.

So it's my opinion that you should think about what the AR is going to be used for, and that you should really put a lot of thought into it.  Putting a bunch of gear on an AR just because you can is ok.  I choose to put some thought into it.  Some people try to justify why they have what they have with little or no thought of why.  I used to do the same thing, but after a lot of money and many different configurations. I've finally have things just the way I want them.  I think.



Link Posted: 12/28/2006 10:02:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=5205&iGalleryUnq=309&iImageUnq=51280


What are your thoughts on this matter?


And furthermore...if you've got a 1:12 twist on your 20" thin barrel, it will handle 55 grain bullets like a dream.  I can outshoot my modern ARs with my old SP1 any day of the week with cheaper bullets.
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 5:56:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2006 3:34:11 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 10:49:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
Yes, it's 1/12, and it does great.  In fact, I've decided that I don't need anything other than 55 grain, and only stock/reload M193 spec ammo.

Like a said folks, I'm not against any particular accessory or configuration, nor am I demanding that everyone go simple like me.  I'm asking that we consider the NEED as the primary motivator for what we add.  Stick says he needs a light and optic because of the liabilities of shooting at night, and that's exactly my point.  He recognized an operational need and met it.

If we really don't need it, perhaps we should spend the time and money on practice instead.


Like you, I love the pencil barrel.  I just wish somebody would make one in a 1:12 twist.  I know...buy an old A1 upper.  But, I don't want to spend that much money just for the barrel.  I preffer flat tops.
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 11:32:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
There are plenty of people who feel they don't need a flashlight or optic, thats great, but it doesn't change that those tools make for a more effective platform. I've no trouble with iron sights most of the time, but if you've ever done serious work at night, or in dissimilar light situations, you understand why optics reign as king.

Its not a question of a basic platform being effective, its a matter of what is most effective.


However, I strongly encourage people to shoot what makes them happy.  The more trigger time you get, the better a shooter people tend to be.  My concern is the guys who watch my back, and those who I watch over in return.


Absolutely agree with StickMan on this one.  Since my life is on the line, I will use whatever I have at my disposal.  A good sling, optic. light, and BUIS are a must in my book, along with good training.  For all my AR's, my #1 concern is accuracy.  So things like a FF tube are a must along with a good trigger and good ammo are a must.
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 11:39:13 AM EDT
I totally agree with the first post. If I don't absolutely need it for its intended purpose, I keep it off the rifle.
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 11:45:20 AM EDT
Great topic, MRW

I saved a couple of notable photos of some other Members collections because I was taken by the diversity, yet complete absence of lights, Magpul this or that, fancy optics, aftermarket grips, or even so much as a rail.

Hope ch139, 45Bravo and YardDogOne don't mind my reposting these inspiring photos



ch139


45Bravo


and YardDogOne




OK, one has a suppressor!
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 8:13:14 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By redfisher:
Great topic, MRW

I saved a couple of notable photos of some other Members collections because I was taken by the diversity, yet complete absence of lights, Magpul this or that, fancy optics, aftermarket grips, or even so much as a rail.

Hope ch139, 45Bravo and YardDogOne don't mind my reposting these inspiring photos



ch139
img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/redfisher19/Redfisher1/ch139.jpg

45Bravo
img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/redfisher19/Redfisher1/45Bravo.jpg

and YardDogOne
img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/redfisher19/Redfisher1/YardDogOne.jpg



OK, one has a suppressor!

hock.gifhock.gifhock.gifhock.gifheadbang.gifhail.gif

This is why we live in thehat Congratulations; you are my new hero.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 9:35:23 AM EDT
I like the idea of a simple rifle/carbine, but 2 problems I see.

No lights=SOL at night when badguys like to play.

Eotech I have allows me to have both eyes open all the time, vs staring at the FSP.


YMMV
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 9:50:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 9:56:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2006 9:57:27 AM EDT by RockyMountainSlings]
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 10:05:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 11:34:08 AM EDT
A bike can get me from point A to point B but I choose to drive a car because it is more efficient.

I feel the same way with gear.  Sure, KISS is good.  I like KISS.  However, for a serious (by serious I mean home-defense, emergency, etc...) rig(s), utilizing the advancements in technology is advantageous.  Optics make hitting your target easier and faster.  A light allows you see your target in dark environs. Both of these make the operator and the weapon more efficient. Both of these are technologies that should be utilized if by none other than those of the prudent paradigm.  

With that said, there is a line.


An optic and a light; done.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 2:31:10 PM EDT
I noticed your avoidance of the term KISS

In principal, I agree with a lot of your points and I think most people, if they're being honest with themselves will agree. The disagreements start when we try to draw the lines as to what is and is not basic or KISS?

Everybody needs to determine that line for themselves. Here is a recent build I completed...


It's an M4 with an A1 upper using an XS same plane sight aperture. A very simply yet effective carbine. Some will argue that the Magpul grip and Vltor stock make it less "KISS". I disagree and find those parts make the carbine more comfortable and enjoyable for me to use while not detracting from it's effectiveness or reliability so they will stay.

I'm trying to throw together a fraternal twin of this one using an A3 upper and an Eotech. Reason being, I'm just not as effective with this carbine as I am with one equipped with a Eotech. Same may say I just need more training and practice with irons. While that is certainly true, I also have to be realistic and acknowledge that with my eyes, lack of training time and a suitable practice location, I'm never going to be as good with irons as I can be with an electronic sight, particularly at longer distances. I'm not making excuses, I'm just being realistic.

And that's what it boils down to. Finding out what's right for you. I hope when people read your post they realize that the rifles you posted are not examples of the perfect AR. The are examples of the perfect AR for you. I think the real message is for the newbies to not think that because they see pic after pic of pimped out AR's around here that they need all of that to have an effective carbine. Start out simple and only deviate from that if you find a real need or advantage in doing so.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 3:33:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 4:10:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cbc82:
You lucky, lucky bastard. Is that seriously your personal collection?.


Don't I wish, cbc!

Actually those belong to a couple of stand up members here, though.

I am happy with my collection, which is growing all the time, but can't take credit for those fun-lockers.

They do look awesome though, don't they?
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 4:46:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2006 4:47:37 PM EDT by Derek45]
Simple is good.












Link Posted: 12/30/2006 4:56:14 PM EDT
Perhaps the reason why folks like me have gone from AKs to ARs to mess with is there is only so much you can do with an AK but endless things you can do with a AR. I have 11 different AKs. No two are the same but once you  have built (and I mean really built) some you kind of hit a wall. The higher end AKs are not much different from the lower end ones.  Its a whole different ballgame with ARs.

If you are going to use a AR like I use a hunting rifle i.e. as a tool, then KISS is the way to go. If you want to make different AR varables a hobby then thats OK too. Personally I think a AR pistol is not very attractive and would not even think about building one. What is the purpose for it? What would make it better than a AK pistol which is much more compact. I don't have any use for either but you can see what I mean.

My go to HD weapon is a 12ga. Rem. 870. A rifle for HD is not wise IMHO.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 5:30:11 PM EDT
MRW...dont disagree with you on your points...but would say that while I am pretty proficient with iron sights...for in-close CQB, I am SOOO much faster with the Aimpoint than I could ever hope to be with the iron sights.  I could burn 20K rounds of practice with the irons...and would still likely never match my speed with my Aimpoint...
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 5:43:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 66Bushman:
MRW...dont disagree with you on your points...but would say that while I am pretty proficient with iron sights...for in-close CQB, I am SOOO much faster with the Aimpoint than I could ever hope to be with the iron sights.  I could burn 20K rounds of practice with the irons...and would still likely never match my speed with my Aimpoint...



That's why I included the third pic.

SABRE 16" middy.  I removed the rail and went back to the more comfortable handguards.

ar15.com is starting to remind me of hot rod or show truck magazines...tactabilly bling bling.
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 6:37:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2006 7:01:11 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 12/30/2006 6:52:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2006 6:58:29 PM EDT by cbc82]
EDIT: THIS IS MYht?!
height=8
Originally Posted By redfisher:
height=8
Originally Posted By cbc82:
You lucky, lucky bastard. Is that seriously your personal collection?.


Don't I wish, cbc!

Actually those belong to a couple of stand up members here, though.

I am happy with my collection, which is growing all the time, but can't take credit for those fun-lockers.

They do look awesome though, don't they? headbang.gifhail2.gifheadbang.gifhail2.gifheadbang.gifare all around you!!! It's mind-numbing that you that you could even pet together such a stunning homage to superior firepower!!! F()c{ing beautiful!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 6:33:10 PM EDT




Link Posted: 12/31/2006 7:19:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2006 7:19:28 PM EDT by cbc82]
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 8:36:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 10:26:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2006 10:33:25 PM EDT by goodoleboy]
Sure I think when seeing guns with alot of gadgets saying to myself "I dont need all that crap"..But I know I maybe missing out on some great technology since I have to try all the gadgets, so I "dont knock it till I try it".

With this In mind I prefer "stock" guns and buy em the way i want them from the factory. I assume most part factory gun parts are made specifically for he gun, and not a unversial aftermarket piece that may fit.
Link Posted: 1/1/2007 2:04:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Derek45:

img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/funny/overdone.jpg



WTF no flat pannel LCD or ipod. That is just not right if your going to bling it out you might as well do it right.
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