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Posted: 9/30/2004 11:16:53 AM EST
What adjustment do I need to do? I have read a million different ways or instructions on how to sight in my gun, but still walk away confused? Am I maybe not aligning the sights properly? I try to put the top of the front sight post, dead center of where I want the bullet to go.... Is that right?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:25:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 11:54:17 AM EST by viper5194]
If your sight alignment is right, you need to raise lower your front sight post which will cause you to lift lower the rear of the gun when sighting. i would only do it a click or two at a time till you get where you need to be

sorry had a brain fart. Its been a while since ive had to mess with sighting in a rifle.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:27:30 AM EST
Your rounds should be low at 25 yards. The standard sights on an AR are way the hell up over the barrel something on the order of about 3 inches or so. If you wish to have a 100 yard zero for example, the sights are set such that the rear sight, front sight and target are all lined up. The barrel however is canted upwards at a slight angle. The bullet will be 3 inches low at the muzzle, and will appear to rise (note: I said APPEAR) slightly. You will be low at 25 yards, somwhat higher but still low at 50, and again at 75. As you appoach 100 yards the bullet will move closer to the line of sight. Beyond 100 yards it will be above the target until gravity has an opportunity to yank it back down...

You do not want a 25 yard zero. If that bullet rises 3 full inches in 25 yards, you are going to be WAY the hell high at 100...

There are several ways to adjust your sight. The simpliest is this: Pic a yardage you wish to have your rifle sighted in at. If you are low at that range simple LOWER the FRONT pin until the sights and POI coincide. If the bullets are high, then RAISE the FRONT pin. Once sighted in forget the damned rear sight elevation and simply hold low or high as approapriate.

Frozenny
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:28:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By viper5194:
If your sight alignment is right, you need to raise your front sight post which will cause you to lift the rear of the gun when sighting. i would only do it a click or two at a time till you get where you need to be




?


Um, no. You must LOWER the front sight post to raise the point of impact.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:29:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By viper5194:
If your sight alignment is right, you need to raise lower your front sight post which will cause you to lift lower the rear of the gun when sighting. i would only do it a click or two at a time till you get where you need to be



Sorry, had to correct this error...

Need to point gun UP to get bullets to go higher...

(Lower front sight or raise rear to make group go UP)



Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:31:13 AM EST
in short.
move the rear sight the direction you want the bullet to go.
move the front sight the opposite!
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:31:19 AM EST
Here's what has worked for me:

Start at Sights and Optics FAQ.

Then go to Methods of Zeroing.

And especially check out Improved Battlesight Zero by LTC Chuck Santose.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:44:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 11:46:24 AM EST by DM1975]
This is what I do, it is not the only way but it works for me. I zero at 25 meters, dead on. This puts me dead on at 300 meters(with an M4, this is different for a full length AR). Between 25 and 300 meters there is only about a 2 to 3 inch difference in impact, for me this is not a problem as I am not trying to strike matches with my rifle, just trying to hit center mass. I know people think that there is a major difference in impact between 25 and 300 meters but there is not at all.

As far as what to do in your case, move your front sight post down. The AR is idiot proof and has an arrow to show you what to do, when the arrow says up this means it will move the POI up, if it says right then it will move the POI right. For zeroing at 25 meters (or yards) you should have your rear sight set to Z on a detachable carry handle full length rifle, or 6/3 on a detachable carry handle M4, and I believe two clicks over 8/3 for a fixed carry handle full length AR and then only adjust your front sight post and rear windage knobs for zero.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:08:35 PM EST
tag
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:20:24 PM EST
just move the target down lower
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:30:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:
just move the target down lower



I was thinking aim higher?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:35:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 12:35:55 PM EST by TeuffelHunden1775]
What type of weapon are you shooting (A2, M4) and what type of sights?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:52:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 12:53:44 PM EST by Forest]

Originally Posted By DM1975:
This is what I do, it is not the only way but it works for me. I zero at 25 meters, dead on. This puts me dead on at 300 meters(with an M4, this is different for a full length AR). Between 25 and 300 meters there is only about a 2 to 3 inch difference in impact, for me this is not a problem



Man this is so wrong on so many levels.

First off zeroing at 25M will not give you a 300M zero. Also, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL the round is only varying 2-3 inches to 300M

The IBSZ (zeroing at 50Y) gives a zero of +/- 2" from 8m to 220M with an almost 9" drop at 300M - zeroing at half that distance will significanlty raise the point of impact (like 6" high at 100y...)

Here is a chart of what happens when you zero an M4 with M855:


Note the Purple Line - that is what happens when you zero with M855 at 25M. See how it rises 9" High at just over 200M, and is at the point of aim at 385 Yards.

If you try it at 25 Yards (for you guys who shoot on civilian ranges and dont understand the difference between yards & metes) check out the dark blue line - it's even higher.

Now compare those to the Yellow Line - Chuck's Improved Battle sight zero. Note how flat the trajectory is and how stays close to the line of sight (the 0 line).



as I am not trying to strike matches with my rifle, just trying to hit center mass. I know people think that there is a major difference in impact between 25 and 300 meters but there is not at all.


Yes there is. Been there done that got the T-shirt...

If you simply shot at 100y you'd note the rounds were hitting 6" high...

Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:56:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 12:57:48 PM EST by DM1975]
I guess I will tell my rifle to stop shooting like that then Funny, thats how we zero our rifles in the Army and they dont seem to have a problem hitting between 25 and 300 meters. I have zeroed my rifle at this range, and everyone else around me did too, and I can still see bullet traces only varrying by 1 MOA or so.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:10:16 PM EST
I might be totaly wrong but this is how we do it in the Army and it works for us. I will go out this weekend and check it for myself just to see but I have seen it work hundreads of times just fine.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:15:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I guess I will tell my rifle to stop shooting like that then Funny, thats how we zero our rifles in the Army and they dont seem to have a problem hitting between 25 and 300 meters. I have zeroed my rifle at this range, and everyone else around me did too, and I can still see bullet traces only varrying by 1 MOA or so.



In the Army you are hitting a target almost 40" tall. Even with the rounds 9" high you will still hit the plastic with a COM aiming point. (yeah I've qualified on Army ranges).

Try going out with paper targets at extended ranges and you will see how the bullet actually flies.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:22:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I guess I will tell my rifle to stop shooting like that then Funny, thats how we zero our rifles in the Army and they dont seem to have a problem hitting between 25 and 300 meters. I have zeroed my rifle at this range, and everyone else around me did too, and I can still see bullet traces only varrying by 1 MOA or so.



In the Army you are hitting a target almost 40" tall. Even with the rounds 9" high you will still hit the plastic with a COM aiming point. (yeah I've qualified on Army ranges).

Try going out with paper targets at extended ranges and you will see how the bullet actually flies.



I have done this with spotting scopes reading the bullet traces, I know exactly where the bullets land then. In fact in the USMC we zeroed at 30 meters to get a 300 meter BZO... I know it is not the same distance but it is pretty close... I will test both out this Sunday. Thanks for the info...
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:25:47 PM EST
Sight it in dead on at 25 yrds, this is to make sure you're on the target.
Move back to 100yds and sight in, open sights. Point of impact should be
approx 1.5 - 2 inches high at 100 yards. This will give you point of
aim at 200 yards and ~2-3 inches low at 300 yards. You got
size of a large grapefruit covered out to 300. Vital organs.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:26:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I guess I will tell my rifle to stop shooting like that then Funny, thats how we zero our rifles in the Army and they dont seem to have a problem hitting between 25 and 300 meters. I have zeroed my rifle at this range, and everyone else around me did too, and I can still see bullet traces only varrying by 1 MOA or so.



In the Army you are hitting a target almost 40" tall. Even with the rounds 9" high you will still hit the plastic with a COM aiming point. (yeah I've qualified on Army ranges).

Try going out with paper targets at extended ranges and you will see how the bullet actually flies.



Just wanted to let you know that 25 meters is cloose to the OLD Marine Corps way of BZO'ing. 1,000" @ 8/3 +1 gets you very cloose at 300 yards set @ 8/3. The Corps now uses 36 yards @8/3. So, he's not completely wrong on his statement. Although, the "rise" and fall in between is more of what you indicated.

I'll just add that I used the IBZO for the first a couple weekends ago with my new A2 and was dead nuts at 200 and 300. Didn't get a chance to try 500.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:28:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I guess I will tell my rifle to stop shooting like that then Funny, thats how we zero our rifles in the Army and they dont seem to have a problem hitting between 25 and 300 meters. I have zeroed my rifle at this range, and everyone else around me did too, and I can still see bullet traces only varrying by 1 MOA or so.



In the Army you are hitting a target almost 40" tall. Even with the rounds 9" high you will still hit the plastic with a COM aiming point. (yeah I've qualified on Army ranges).

Try going out with paper targets at extended ranges and you will see how the bullet actually flies.



I have done this with spotting scopes reading the bullet traces, I know exactly where the bullets land then. In fact in the USMC we zeroed at 30 meters to get a 300 meter BZO... I know it is not the same distance but it is pretty close... I will test both out this Sunday. Thanks for the info...



Forgive me for asking but were you in the Corps?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:32:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I guess I will tell my rifle to stop shooting like that then Funny, thats how we zero our rifles in the Army and they dont seem to have a problem hitting between 25 and 300 meters. I have zeroed my rifle at this range, and everyone else around me did too, and I can still see bullet traces only varrying by 1 MOA or so.



In the Army you are hitting a target almost 40" tall. Even with the rounds 9" high you will still hit the plastic with a COM aiming point. (yeah I've qualified on Army ranges).

Try going out with paper targets at extended ranges and you will see how the bullet actually flies.



I have done this with spotting scopes reading the bullet traces, I know exactly where the bullets land then. In fact in the USMC we zeroed at 30 meters to get a 300 meter BZO... I know it is not the same distance but it is pretty close... I will test both out this Sunday. Thanks for the info...



Forgive me for asking but were you in the Corps?



Yes I was, I was an 0352 with a secondary MOS 8531 (and 30 meters is 36 yards before anyone says anything)
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:35:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By SkiandShoot:

Originally Posted By _DR:
just move the target down lower



I was thinking aim higher?



Nope. Just stand on a chair.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:38:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 1:38:43 PM EST by DM1975]

Originally Posted By NoComp:
Sight it in dead on at 25 yrds, this is to make sure you're on the target.
Move back to 100yds and sight in, open sights. Point of impact should be
approx 1.5 - 2 inches high at 100 yards. This will give you point of
aim at 200 yards and ~2-3 inches low at 300 yards. You got
size of a large grapefruit covered out to 300. Vital organs.



My point... Thank you. (close enough to it at least )
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:40:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:
Originally Posted By DM1975:
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By DM1975:

Forgive me for asking but were you in the Corps?



Yes I was, I was an 0352 with a secondary MOS 8531 (and 30 meters is 36 yards before anyone says anything)



I guess then that you were also in the Army?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:41:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I guess I will tell my rifle to stop shooting like that then Funny, thats how we zero our rifles in the Army and they dont seem to have a problem hitting between 25 and 300 meters. I have zeroed my rifle at this range, and everyone else around me did too, and I can still see bullet traces only varrying by 1 MOA or so.



I think you are right. A 25 yd zero gives a 250 yd zero, with a max trajectory vs LOS difference of +/- 3" from 5 yards to 300 yard appx. Using M193 ammo.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:41:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 1:42:10 PM EST by DM1975]

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:
Originally Posted By DM1975:
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By DM1975:

Forgive me for asking but were you in the Corps?



Yes I was, I was an 0352 with a secondary MOS 8531 (and 30 meters is 36 yards before anyone says anything)



I guess then that you were also in the Army?



I am currently in the Army. 11B
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:45:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:
Originally Posted By DM1975:
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By DM1975:

Forgive me for asking but were you in the Corps?



Yes I was, I was an 0352 with a secondary MOS 8531 (and 30 meters is 36 yards before anyone says anything)



I guess then that you were also in the Army?



I am currently in the Army. 11B



That would explain the references to both services. If I may, why, and when did you leave the Corps?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:48:20 PM EST
DM1975:

What Army were you in that zeroed at 25 yards without adjusting SOMETHING on the rear sight to make up for the difference Forest mentioned?

In the Army I have been in the past 12 years, we zero the M16A2/A4 at 25 meters, but adjust the rear sight up one elevation click to compensate. This will get you pretty close to com at 300m, as long as you RETURN the rear sight to the "8/3" mark.

Failing to adjust that rear sight would put you WAY high across the normal engagement ranges.

Perhaps that is what you meant, but I have seen too many people in the Army get this wrong to be sure. We seriously need to bring back our KD ranges - pop-ups are so big and easy to qualify on that they too easily reinforce incorrect procedures.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:52:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
DM1975:

What Army were you in that zeroed at 25 yards without adjusting SOMETHING on the rear sight to make up for the difference Forest mentioned?

In the Army I have been in the past 12 years, we zero the M16A2/A4 at 25 meters, but adjust the rear sight up one elevation click to compensate. This will get you pretty close to com at 300m, as long as you RETURN the rear sight to the "8/3" mark.

Failing to adjust that rear sight would put you WAY high across the normal engagement ranges.

Perhaps that is what you meant, but I have seen too many people in the Army get this wrong to be sure. We seriously need to bring back our KD ranges - pop-ups are so big and easy to qualify on that they too easily reinforce incorrect procedures.



Clarify for me, if you would, adjust the rear sight up one click from what?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:55:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:


Yes I was, I was an 0352 with a secondary MOS 8531 (and 30 meters is 36 yards before anyone says anything)



Uhhh - actually it is just under 33 yards. I know this because at every rifle range with both a 50 meter and 50 yard mark, the 50 yard target is just under 5 yards (about 14 feet, or just under 6 steps) short of the 50 meter mark.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:57:32 PM EST
On an M16A4 you put it on Z to zero but on an M4 you zero it on 6/3.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:58:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 2:02:25 PM EST by Adam_White]

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
DM1975:

What Army were you in that zeroed at 25 yards without adjusting SOMETHING on the rear sight to make up for the difference Forest mentioned?

In the Army I have been in the past 12 years, we zero the M16A2/A4 at 25 meters, but adjust the rear sight up one elevation click to compensate. This will get you pretty close to com at 300m, as long as you RETURN the rear sight to the "8/3" mark.

Failing to adjust that rear sight would put you WAY high across the normal engagement ranges.

Perhaps that is what you meant, but I have seen too many people in the Army get this wrong to be sure. We seriously need to bring back our KD ranges - pop-ups are so big and easy to qualify on that they too easily reinforce incorrect procedures.



Clarify for me, if you would, adjust the rear sight up one click from what?



We zero for 300 meters - so it is up one click from the 300 meter mark - labeled "8/3" (it is supposedly also the 800 meter mark after a full rotation of the dial). Upon returning the rear sight to the 300 meter mark, you will find that it shoots low at 25 meters.

edit: with "8/3" of course, this is only the fixed carry handle A2s - the A4 and M4s have removable carry handles, and thus are different. Either way, you MUST do something to the rear sight so that you are in effect shooting low at 25 meters when the sights are returned to normal.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:59:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
On an M16A4 you put it on Z to zero but on an M4 you zero it on 6/3.



I stand corrected - I was not aware they changed the dial configuration - makes sense though, since the same dial is on the M16A4 and M4 - with a big difference in barrels.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:01:17 PM EST
US Army. Me too. This is the way the Colt Manual states also. then you click the rear sight down.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:02:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
On an M16A4 you put it on Z to zero but on an M4 you zero it on 6/3.



On the A2 you zero at 8/3 +1... hence the one click up...

The reason I got out of the Marine Corps is due to messing my knee up real bad... I was Infantry but also a PMI... I was given the option to either get out of the Marines or leave the Infantry... Me and my PS did not get along at all and our new PL listend to him and when I tried to get reasigned to the range they told me no... I had no other choice. This was in 96...
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:02:59 PM EST


My point... Thank you. (close enough to it at least
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:07:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 2:08:37 PM EST by Adam_White]
FWIW, I had an INCOMPETENT motor sergeant who taught privates to return the rear sight to "8/3" EVEN WHEN THE QUALIFICATION COURSE WAS AT 25 METERS ALSO!!! Not surprisingly, those who failed all had low shots - I diagnosed the problem as soon as I saw the targets - the dumbass was too dense to realize her mistake EVEN after I explained it!

The scary thing is, she (yeah, she) had been a DRILL SERGEANT! The Army seriously needs full-time marksmanship instructors like the Marines if there are more out there like her!
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:13:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
FWIW, I had an INCOMPETENT motor sergeant who taught privates to return the rear sight to "8/3" EVEN WHEN THE QUALIFICATION COURSE WAS AT 25 METERS ALSO!!! Not surprisingly, those who failed all had low shots - I diagnosed the problem as soon as I saw the targets - the dumbass was too dense to realize her mistake EVEN after I explained it!

The scary thing is, she (yeah, she) had been a DRILL SERGEANT! The Army seriously needs full-time marksmanship instructors like the Marines if there are more out there like her!



We are trying to rectify this right now with the new SDM school. All instructors are High Power rifle shooters. Our head instructor in the school was Lew Tippie, thus the range was taught almost identical to Marine Corps standards. The biggest thing I got out of the school was that it is possible to use the M16A4 on point targets out to 800 meters without optics.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:15:19 PM EST
This is basically my question, trust me, I KNOW about A2 sighting systems and the proper way to BZO (see my post's above). The A4 has been introduced since my departure and I've no experience with the removable handle. Is it indexed differently from the A2?

BTW, if you use 36 yards (as the Corps does now) you use 8/3 instead of 8/3 +1 as you do at 1,000".
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:17:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
FWIW, I had an INCOMPETENT motor sergeant who taught privates to return the rear sight to "8/3" EVEN WHEN THE QUALIFICATION COURSE WAS AT 25 METERS ALSO!!! Not surprisingly, those who failed all had low shots - I diagnosed the problem as soon as I saw the targets - the dumbass was too dense to realize her mistake EVEN after I explained it!

The scary thing is, she (yeah, she) had been a DRILL SERGEANT! The Army seriously needs full-time marksmanship instructors like the Marines if there are more out there like her!



We are trying to rectify this right now with the new SDM school. All instructors are High Power rifle shooters. Our head instructor in the school was Lew Tippie, thus the range was taught almost identical to Marine Corps standards. The biggest thing I got out of the school was that it is possible to use the M16A4 on point targets out to 800 meters without optics.



POINT targets at 800 meters with a 5.56???
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:28:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
FWIW, I had an INCOMPETENT motor sergeant who taught privates to return the rear sight to "8/3" EVEN WHEN THE QUALIFICATION COURSE WAS AT 25 METERS ALSO!!! Not surprisingly, those who failed all had low shots - I diagnosed the problem as soon as I saw the targets - the dumbass was too dense to realize her mistake EVEN after I explained it!

The scary thing is, she (yeah, she) had been a DRILL SERGEANT! The Army seriously needs full-time marksmanship instructors like the Marines if there are more out there like her!



We are trying to rectify this right now with the new SDM school. All instructors are High Power rifle shooters. Our head instructor in the school was Lew Tippie, thus the range was taught almost identical to Marine Corps standards. The biggest thing I got out of the school was that it is possible to use the M16A4 on point targets out to 800 meters without optics.



POINT targets at 800 meters with a 5.56???



Yes, I have done this myself. It is possible useing the 77grn Black Hills ammo. (issued to SDM's)
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:57:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
FWIW, I had an INCOMPETENT motor sergeant who taught privates to return the rear sight to "8/3" EVEN WHEN THE QUALIFICATION COURSE WAS AT 25 METERS ALSO!!! Not surprisingly, those who failed all had low shots - I diagnosed the problem as soon as I saw the targets - the dumbass was too dense to realize her mistake EVEN after I explained it!

The scary thing is, she (yeah, she) had been a DRILL SERGEANT! The Army seriously needs full-time marksmanship instructors like the Marines if there are more out there like her!



We are trying to rectify this right now with the new SDM school. All instructors are High Power rifle shooters. Our head instructor in the school was Lew Tippie, thus the range was taught almost identical to Marine Corps standards. The biggest thing I got out of the school was that it is possible to use the M16A4 on point targets out to 800 meters without optics.



POINT targets at 800 meters with a 5.56???



Yes, I have done this myself. It is possible useing the 77grn Black Hills ammo. (issued to SDM's)



I've never gone past 600 meters - but routinely hit silhouttes there. With that new ammo, I agree it is possible.

Effective range assumes average soldier skills. I'd still rather use a machine gun or mortar at that range, though!
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 3:04:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
FWIW, I had an INCOMPETENT motor sergeant who taught privates to return the rear sight to "8/3" EVEN WHEN THE QUALIFICATION COURSE WAS AT 25 METERS ALSO!!! Not surprisingly, those who failed all had low shots - I diagnosed the problem as soon as I saw the targets - the dumbass was too dense to realize her mistake EVEN after I explained it!

The scary thing is, she (yeah, she) had been a DRILL SERGEANT! The Army seriously needs full-time marksmanship instructors like the Marines if there are more out there like her!



We are trying to rectify this right now with the new SDM school. All instructors are High Power rifle shooters. Our head instructor in the school was Lew Tippie, thus the range was taught almost identical to Marine Corps standards. The biggest thing I got out of the school was that it is possible to use the M16A4 on point targets out to 800 meters without optics.



POINT targets at 800 meters with a 5.56???



Yes, I have done this myself. It is possible useing the 77grn Black Hills ammo. (issued to SDM's)



As have I, just to prove that it could be done on a very calm day. However, I, and you should, know that it's pointless to do so with that round.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 3:08:34 PM EST
I would have to disagree, the round is still supersonic at that distance and it will still kill a man.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:54:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
On an M16A4 you put it on Z to zero but on an M4 you zero it on 6/3.



On the A2 you zero at 8/3 +1... hence the one click up...



And the Marines quit doing that becaues they found it did not produce a true 300M zero.

Hence the 30M/36y zero. At 30M the bullet will strike dead on at 300M and your elevation wheel will be properly calibrated.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:57:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
I think you are right. A 25 yd zero gives a 250 yd zero, with a max trajectory vs LOS difference of +/- 3" from 5 yards to 300 yard appx. Using M193 ammo.



Army never use a '25 y zero', it was 25M (I was issued an M16A1 'back when).

To zero you set the aperture to 'L' - zeroed at 25M then flipped back to the unmarked aperture.

The Unmarked aperture was a 42M/250M battlesight zero with something like +/- 3" (Not far off from the IBSZ). The 'L' aperture was a 25M/375M zero (we only used this for zeroing or Alt Course C qualifying).

That little detail of flipping the apertures is very important.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:00:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By NoComp:
Sight it in dead on at 25 yrds, this is to make sure you're on the target.
Move back to 100yds and sight in, open sights. Point of impact should be
approx 1.5 - 2 inches high at 100 yards.



Somebody's on somthing.

With an AR-15 (and that pesky 2.6" height over bore) with a 25y zero your rounds will be 6"+ high.

We get this question every month or so from a newbie who zeroed at 25y and can't figure why they are hitting 6"-8" high at 100y....

A 50y zero produces a hit around 1.6" high at 100y - no way you're getting the same results with a 25y zero.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 6:00:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
I think you are right. A 25 yd zero gives a 250 yd zero, with a max trajectory vs LOS difference of +/- 3" from 5 yards to 300 yard appx. Using M193 ammo.



Army never use a '25 y zero', it was 25M (I was issued an M16A1 'back when).

To zero you set the aperture to 'L' - zeroed at 25M then flipped back to the unmarked aperture.

The Unmarked aperture was a 42M/250M battlesight zero with something like +/- 3" (Not far off from the IBSZ). The 'L' aperture was a 25M/375M zero (we only used this for zeroing or Alt Course C qualifying).

That little detail of flipping the apertures is very important.



I was in the military before the "meter" was drafted.

we were using yards like God intended.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 3:28:38 AM EST
Hi guys

We have all this zero at 25 yard, zero at 25 meters, good enough to hit center of mass discussions taking place. My own opinion is chuck it all..... With the exception of a few hard core enthusiasts, most people are NOT going to remember all this garbage 9 months down the road. and they certainly are not going to remember it under stress.

Just because the "Army" does something one way does not mean it is necessarily the best way. Come on guys, we all know that "military intelligence" is an oxymoron....

Forget what everyone else does. Find what works for you, and stick with it. I recommend against a 25 yard zero because you will be wayyyyyyy freakin high at 100 and 150 yards. Not every target is coming at you standing up and broad side. Besides, a 9" high POI at 100 puts the bullets decided ABOVE the typical vital.

Keep it simple. All my deer rifles are sighted approximately 1.5 to 2" high at 100 yards. To keep it simple I sight my AR's the same way. This gives me a trajectory that places bullets a bit low at the muzzle, slightly high at 100, and pretty muhc dead nuts on at about 200. I can keep every single bullet inside a 6" vital zone right out to 250 of there abouts depending on caliber. Everything from a 5.56, to a .308 win, to a .350 remington magnum, to a .45x209 muzzleloader shoots pretty much the same way all the way out to 250. It's simple point and shoot, and minute of woodchuck all the way out. If I can zip a little woodchuck with a 4" vital zone from the muzzle to 200, and can do it with fair regularity somewhat beyond that, I sure as hell can keep 'em all were they count on a larger target like a whitetail (or whatever else might be appropriate at the time)

Now lets get a little bit real here. Some people are advocating sight settings that are more appropriate for 300 to 500 yard ranges. This is simple bullshit. I think too many people are reading ballistics tables. 99.2% of people couldn't hit a red-painted barn at 500 yards.

If the vast majority of your shooting takes place within 200 yards, and I think most shooting does, when would you want what is effectively a 300 or 400 yard zero????????

Just my two cents.

Frozenny

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 4:18:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
I think you are right. A 25 yd zero gives a 250 yd zero, with a max trajectory vs LOS difference of +/- 3" from 5 yards to 300 yard appx. Using M193 ammo.



Army never use a '25 y zero', it was 25M (I was issued an M16A1 'back when).

To zero you set the aperture to 'L' - zeroed at 25M then flipped back to the unmarked aperture.

The Unmarked aperture was a 42M/250M battlesight zero with something like +/- 3" (Not far off from the IBSZ). The 'L' aperture was a 25M/375M zero (we only used this for zeroing or Alt Course C qualifying).

That little detail of flipping the apertures is very important.



No one uses any other apature other than the small hole. No one uses the A1 any more except maybe the reserves. You DO NOT flip the apature on the A2 or later models...
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 5:32:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
I was in the military before the "meter" was drafted.

we were using yards like God intended.



LOL! Understood. But don't foget the aperture flip during the zeroing process!
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