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Posted: 12/30/2002 12:26:12 AM EDT
I went to the Portland funshow a few weeks ago and handled an MP5. I was surprised! The thing was heavy and big compared to my Oly PCR9.  I use the think the MP5 was the thing to have but now I've been turned off to it.  I certainly wouldn't turn one down if they were handing them out, but I think my AR 9mm has far more user friendly features and options, and it doesn't weigh a ton.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 3:44:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 9:38:03 AM EDT by drfcolt]
The MP-5 is a fantastic sub-gun - probably the best and the HK-94 is a great semi-auto version of it.

But, the M16/9 or AR15/9 is a great choice, also.

Ligher and with better ergonomics, and with the SAW bolt improvements runs almost as smoothly as the MP-5 - alot of subgun matches are won with the M16/9.

Also, parts are abundant, better optics mounting choices, and you can work on EVERY part of the gun yourself.

The MP-5 requies a trip to the doctor when it breaks, and that stay can be measured in months these days.

Also, unless you get a registered sear (as opposed to a RR), the M16/AR15 gives much greater versatility.

Besides the M16/9 looks great.

Link Posted: 12/30/2002 3:54:24 AM EDT
My dealer has a HK-94 in. Wife was looking at it the other day and decided very quickly that she likes her 9mm Oly MUCH better. After she shot it yesterday, she is hooked. See my other thread.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:23:09 AM EDT

My friend just sold his M16 and 9mm upper, bought two Vector UZIs ;)
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 7:51:04 AM EDT
Don't pass judgement until you fire one.  I like my M16, but an M16 with a 9mm upper does not compare to an MP5.  My friend has 2 of them, and I have fired them both.

From a practical point of view, the 9mm M16 is better for those of us with limited funds.  I want an MP5, but with costs reaching $9000, I will live with the 9mm M16.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 8:11:09 AM EDT
I have fired Colt 9mm carbines. I like them a lot less than the real .223 version.

I recently got to fire an MP-5 for the first time 60 rounds. I was shooting at oval targets somewhat bigger than fist sized at about 12 yards. First 30 rounds was on semi, 2nd 30 rounds was on auto doing appx 3 rd bursts.

I hit 30/30 full auto. Not that that is spectacular, but pretty good for the first time I had ever handled an MP-5 type weapon. Very little recoil. I didn't think about the weight of the weapon,it just felt "solid". By that I mean well built.

I wouldn't count out a full auto MP-5 until you get a chance to fire it.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 8:11:11 AM EDT
I have both an RO635 Colt factory 9mm and a Vollmer conversion MP5.

The RO635 is a pretty neat gun and a rare collector's item, but does not compare to the MP5 for shooting.  With the MP5 I can hold a bead on the black in a target while firing and not lose bullseye; the RO635, like most subguns is too jerky for that.  THe MP5 shoots superbly, and plus offers the HK 3 round burst which unlike the Colt parts resets itself when you release the trigger.

Even cooler than the MP5 is the MP5K.  Mine is currently out in Illinois being completed, but I can't wait for it to come back.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 9:37:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 9:42:56 AM EDT by drfcolt]
[b]With the MP5 I can hold a bead on the black in a target while firing and not lose bullseye[/b]

I get pretty much the same results with my M16/9 with a Gemtech Talon-SD ($1,200 with transfer fee) suppressed upper and SAW bolt improvements ($400 - for a complete bolt with mods).

The MP-5 is the king of subguns, though.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 10:43:18 AM EDT
I have not purchased a suppressed upper for the RO635 although it's been on my to do list.  I imagine that would help greatly.  I found my Vector Mini difficult to control until I added a Gemtech mini-Mossad, and now it's a pleasure.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 11:00:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 11:01:59 AM EDT by drfcolt]
Yea, you can get the M16/9 running pretty good by tinkering with it.

That's one of the nice points of the M16 platform, the fact that you can work on the whole thing yourself.

With the Shrike SAW conversion and the BRP MG-34 GPMG conversion, about all bases are covered - suppressed select-fire 22LR up through select-fire belt-fed 8MM GPMG.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 11:40:03 AM EDT
The MP5 and the 94 are nice subguns.

But with Oly Arms PCR-9s and Colt 9mms around, for only $800 on up, why blow several $thousand to deliver the same bullets on target.

Cool to have but $5K could buy a PCR-9 and eight Glocks/Sigs or five really nice 1911s.  

Get a 9mm AR-15 - less filling!
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 11:48:29 AM EDT
I don't own MP5 but I've shot one along with Uzi.  I also own AR15 in M4 configuration.  Lets just say, I never thought MP5 as being heavy.  I shot better on MP5 than I did with Uzi.  Would I buy one for $9000, assuming that it is legal in my state?  Yes, I would.      
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 11:59:53 AM EDT
Same reason I like Thompsons- because the man in the movies uses MP5s.

I cant escape the notion that a 9mm AR15 carbine looks like a riced out rifle trying to be a subgun, while an Mp5 looks like a subgun to begin with....
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 1:14:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 1:50:04 PM EDT by drfcolt]
Originally Posted By RebelGray:
Same reason I like Thompsons- because the man in the movies uses MP5s.

I cant escape the notion that a 9mm AR15 carbine looks like a riced out rifle trying to be a subgun, while an Mp5 looks like a subgun to begin with....
View Quote

You like a certain weapon because you saw it in the movies/TV - what about function?

Your comparing a semi-auto 9MM AR15 to an MP5 subgun? Should be a comparison to an M16/9. I think they both look great:

Try putting a picture of an 9MM AR15 next to an HK-94:
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 2:32:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 2:39:15 PM EDT by amphibian]
I personally think the MP5 is overrated.  I have shot them a lot.  I have quite a few friends that have them.  
Like DRFColt, I too have the SAW modified Colt 9mm bolt.  It does make the 9mm Colt shoot a lot smoother but it is still not as smooth as an MP5.  drfcolt, does have a good point about not losing the bullseye with the 9mm Colt.  I can do that also as well as with my Full size and MINI Uzi.  Yes, the MP5 is easier to shoot but that doesn't mean that a skilled operator can't achieve the same result with a different subgun.
What I don't like about the MP5:
1. parts are very expensive
2. hard to work on.  Ever try changing barrels on an MP5?
3. not a flexible platform (can't really modify ROF)
4. Tight chambers - can be picky with ammo.  My Colt and Uzi eat anything.

Also some may argue this but I think the MP5 is not as reliable as the Uzi or some other subguns in harsh conditions especially sandy environments.  
Of course the MP5 is going to be easier to control.  It is delayed roller blowback and with the mag in the front it is like a big cantilever holding that muzzle down.  The Colt 9mm jumps all over the place since it is straight blow back and has that nasty cocking angle on the bolt unless its modified like SAW does and have a tungsten weight added.  I can play with different springs and buffers to adjust ROF.  I got mine down to 488 RPM with my reloads and 576 RPM with factory ammo.
The MP5 is gradually being phased out.  The local county PD here has dropped the MP5 in favor of the more power .45 caliber HK UMP45.  The Colt is a nice weapons system as you could always switch to .223 or another caliber.  Yes, with a registered HK sear you could go to 223, 308, etc but that is another story...
I like my Colt 9mm after the bolts been modified but for fun I like the MINI Uzi.  With the Colt 9mm, full size Uzi and MINI Uzi, I can easily nail 3x5 index cards at 40 yards (yes and that is with an OPEN bolt SMG).  That is plenty accurate for a SMG.  I know some other shooters that have the MP5 and MINI Uzi and they all prefer to shoot the MINI over the MP5 - why?, more of a challenge to shoot.  Most MP5 owners I know shoot them alot when they first get them then put them away finding them boring.  They pull them out when they want to introduce newbies to shooting SMG's.
Also note that the last Knob Creek Subgun match was won by someone using a 9mm Colt.
You can't beat the Colt 9mm when it comes to mag changes.  The mags drop free with the firing hand and the bolt stays open after the last round.  (provided you are using Colt mags of course)
My .02 cents.

Link Posted: 12/30/2002 2:36:04 PM EDT
I've seen the video's of MP5's on HKpro.com and they look like they stay right on target.  I suspect that is because of the weight.  I imagine it like how a lightweight 9mm pistol shoots verses a full sized 9mm pistol(keltec vs M9).
I'm sure that with some inexpensive tinkering the AR 9mm can be made to fire just as smoothly. Perhaps an HBAR barrel makes a big difference, but I just cant justify having a heavy sub-caliber rifle.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 4:02:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drfcolt:

You like a certain weapon because you saw it in the movies/TV - what about function?

Your comparing a semi-auto 9MM AR15 to an MP5 subgun? Should be a comparison to an M16/9. I think they both look great
View Quote

I've an AK, an A5, and a Mauser. If function is important I'll grab one of them.

Its not a real SMG I'm buying, its a toy, a simulation of a real SMG that doesnt have the most important feature of an SMG in the first place- the ability to lay down a high volume of fire in a very short time.

Its like why I own three cars, the most expensive and time consuming is my Fiero, but I bought it because its fun to drive and it looks cool. I paid more for that car than my S10 and my metro combined, and yet if I *have* to go somewhere or *have* to do something I drive the metro or the S10.

The whole purpose of buying a pistol-caliber "fake" SMG is because it looks cool and is fun to take out with a bunch of people who shoot mostly cheap "ordinary" looking guns.

Sure, in reality the 9mm AR design is a better sub-gun, and a better carbine, but I'm not spending the money to have a combat weapon, I'm spending the money because I want to shoot something cool thats got instant recognizability.

When I carry a gun to carry a gun on a daily basis I take a conversation peice because 9/10 I'll end up just shooting at the local range, even though in a pinch it'll do. When I carry a gun because I'm worried about my wellbeing and going into a situation that could be trouble I take a workhorse, something simple, effective, and NOT flashy, and definitly something inexpensive (because in this day and age who knows if you'll have to ditch it/give it up).
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 4:11:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 4:12:46 PM EDT by drfcolt]
[b]The whole purpose of buying a pistol-caliber "fake" SMG is because it looks cool and is fun to take out with a bunch of people who shoot mostly cheap "ordinary" looking guns[/b]

Who's talking "fake"? The M16/9 is a select-fire sub-machinegun as is the MP-5.

The AR15/9 and HK-94 are not "fakes", they are semi-automatic 9MM carbines.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:35:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 6:39:35 PM EDT by BISHOP]
I have to post this out of jealousy.
I like the small design with the full .223 caliber.
It does have a larger recoil but with the use of a pigtail gas tube the recoil is probably the same if not less than the 9mm.

Of course mine is semiauto but I can play can't I?

Link Posted: 12/30/2002 8:36:28 PM EDT
[b] drfcolt [/b]

Forgot Oregon was a Class III state. I automaticaly assumed the comparison was between carbines.

I cant afford another Class III thats just going to sit in Idaho until I visit (I've already got an M11/9) and I dont plan on moving from Washington anytime too soon, so for me the choice is for a toy, not a practical weapon.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 3:00:18 AM EDT
Ok I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I have an HK sear that I switch around in my 308's and plan on getting an MP5KN PDW host for it also. I do not plan on getting an MP5 host for it though.

1st I have several friends with MP5's so I get to shoot one a lot. It is a great SMG, very easy to control and keep on target during any burst length. But since they are so easy and stable to shoot, they get a little boring. Plus as mentioned not very modular and very expensive to have worked on.

The MP5KN PDW is just too cool to pass up tho.

The 1st upper I bought for my M16 was to 635 9mm upper. Boy what a let down! ROF around 1000RPM with CS and H buffer. Jerky and jumpy almost impossible to keep on target, and the trigger slap made my finger throb after one 32rd magazine.

Well I heard about the SAW bolt mod and thought what the hell. Well with the SAW mod, and AAC rate reducer buffer the M16/9 is great. Not as stable as the MP5 on bursts but close. I think the bolt hold open and mag change procedure on the Colt makes up for that though.

My setup:

Link Posted: 12/31/2002 6:39:16 AM EDT
Almost twins (except mines the silent one):
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 5:53:36 AM EDT
Lost count long ago of the many thousands of rounds I have both fired, and supervised being fired through MP5s as well as a very few Uzis, some Colt 9mm subguns and the odd Mac, Beretta, S&W and SwedishK. As a dedicated, 9mm submachinegun platform, I don't think there is anything out there better than the MP5...period.

When we look at other attributes, however, especially if speaking from a standpoint of individual ownership
rather than about military or police agency use, I don't think the MP5 is so far ahead anymore. The Colts are more versatile and easier to work on and there are many more "user-friendly" parts/accessories available. In fairness, though, the MPs always ran more reliably than the Colts.

Link Posted: 1/1/2003 7:58:59 AM EDT
what exactly is the "SAW bolt mod"?
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 8:44:42 AM EDT
I have to second what Amphibian said.

The MP5 is a great subgun, but is somewhat overrated.  I think I've fired both enough to know the pros and cons of each.  

Sure the MP5 doesn't jump around quite at much as a vanilla RO635, but the Colt is still VERY controllable.

My UZI jumped around more than either of those and with a little practice and by keeping my elbows down I'm able to put whatever size burst I choose to in paper plate 25 yards away.  That's good enough for government work and good enough to enjoy.  I'm able to do almost as well with an MP5 but with the cyclic rate being so high, I can't aim each shot like with an UZI.  The ROF of my M16/9 can be readily tweaked with simple spring and buffer swaps.  This is helpful when someone shows up with weak or hot ammo.
From what I've seen an MP5 will be a little finicky about OAL of ammo where an UZI doesn't seem to ever care.  I've read plenty about Colt M16/9s having similar OAL problems.  At least with a Colt or clone you can remove the feed ramp and tweak it some.  From where I stand, that's a definate check in the + column.

I'd own an MP5 for the right price.  I'd own an F16 or M1A2 tank for the right price too.

Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:45:04 AM EDT
Go to my website [url]http://home.cfl.rr.com/c3stuff/5_9mm/mk-9k.htm[/url] for more info on the SAW bolt modification.
In regards to the MP5 again, the 1st or 2nd edition of the silencer book written by Al Paulson has a pretty good section that I agree totally with.  They talk about how the MP5 gained popularity because of its high profile use by the SAS during the Iranian hostage situation.  This overshadowed two very good subguns: the IMI MINI Uzi and the Beretta M12.  I don't have any first hand experience with the Beretta M12 but I do like my MINI.  I personally think the whole issue with open bolts being less accurate on the first shot has a lot to do with the shooter.  I have shot my Uzi's a lot more than any other subgun so that probably has a lot to do with it too.  I can easily keep my shots in a 3x5 card at 40 yards with either the full or MINI Uzi firing from the OPEN bolt.
JED makes a great point about keeping the elbows down.  Using that technique, I can dump the whole mag from my MINI Uzi and keep all rounds in a pie plate.
A couple of other things I don't like about the MP5 is that you have to gibbon like thumbs to move the selector without adjusting your grip.  Both the Uzi and Colt have better selector ergonomics. IMHO.  
Also mag changes do require more training to do fast.  With an Uzi, your supporting hand finds the firing hand.  With a Colt, you drop the mag with firing hand finger (provided you are right handed).
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