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Posted: 10/14/2008 1:57:21 PM EST
I have been on a multi year struggle to find the Ultimate AR. Please give me your opinion on what you would do.

To me the ultimate AR needs to do the following things
1. Be RELIABLE RELIABLE RELIABLE RELIABLE x 1 million
SHTF is priority
No cheap or un proven parts will be allowed

2. Some what accurate.
I don’t need anything crazy, I am a decent shot but I am not a Marine sniper nor do I play one on tv.

3. Lightweight
I don’t need or want a 8-10 pound rifle bull barrels are totally out of the question I want something that is light, quick, fast and easy to handle.

currently the only AR that I have is a Colt 6920 which is pretty bad ass and has been very reliable the only problems that I have had with it was a squib load and a bad mag neither of which are the gun’s fault. I just can’t help wanting something more. Exactly what Im not sure. I can’t seem to come to a conclusion. This is where you guys come in. Give me some opinions on what you would build for your
Ultimate SHTF- home defense - plinking - fun - range - go to AR-15 type rifle.

I have not decided on a barrel length. I am considering 12” 14.5” and 16” I really like the Noveske 12.5 Crusader but their VTAC combat carbine’s look nice too. The only downside to a 16” Noveske is that I don’t think that they make any 16” barrels with carbine length gas systems I don’t know why but I would like to avoid getting a middy.
Also how do Noveske barrel contours compare to my 6920’s barrel contour are the Noveske’s going to be heavier?
This is important because if it is going to be the ultimate AR it must have a suppressor on it which will in turn make it more muzzle heavy so I would really like to keep the weight down as much as possible. Also can the VTAC’s fore end tube be taken apart for cleaning? I was also thinking of buying a 12.5 crusader barrel and installing a VTAC fore end tube on it but I don’t know if there would be enough clearance for a suppressor?

I have also been considering a Larue Stealth upper again I don’t know if I should get a 12” or a 16” If I went with the12” Larue option I was thinking about installing one of the PRI carbon fiber free float handguards in place of the Larue rail but I haven’t read enough about them on here to know if they are GTG or just mall ninja crap. But I have seen pick’s on here of them and I like how it looks when a suppressor is sticking out of them. I also like that there are no sharp cheese grater rails to scrape up your hands.

So I guess you could say I want the best all around rifle out of these choices. Let’s hear what you guys think and any picks would be great.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 2:02:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2008 2:05:18 PM EST by M4]
4 choices that are indisputably the finest AR's available. Period. These are off-the-shelf, good to go rifles that are the benchmark in quality and reliability.

(No Order)

Colt 6920
LMT Defender
Noveske N4
KAC SR15E3

Honorable mention to BCM Mid-Length uppers. Mid-length gas systems are a better choice than carbine, and BCM simply makes their stuff right.

If you go with an SBR or a silencer, you should seriously consider a piston system.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 2:02:47 PM EST
man you have the best gun in my opinion. if I was you, I would use the colt and get the reliability package from S.A.W. if that helps you sleep better.

Id take the 6920 with a FF KAC rail and an ACOG TAO1 ECOS as the base to work with. and a lot of Pmags
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 2:05:02 PM EST
There was once a guy who spent his life trying to find the ultimate solvent, the one thing that almost every thing would dissolve in. As he sat drinking a glass of water he realised what it was.


AR that I have is a Colt 6920


KISS
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 2:37:42 PM EST
KAC SR15 E3
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 2:38:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2008 2:40:59 PM EST by Gamma762]

Originally Posted By JimJones:
I have been on a multi year struggle to find the Ultimate AR.

If you've been reading around here for that long you should have tons of good information upon which to base a decision.

The most important information though only you can answer, through EXPERIENCE. How much shooting experience do you have with AR rifles? In the absense of much experience I would respectfully suggest expanding your experience and knowledge base via a carbine class or the like.

Please give me your opinion on what you would do.

To me the ultimate AR needs to do the following things
1. Be RELIABLE RELIABLE RELIABLE RELIABLE x 1 million
SHTF is priority
No cheap or un proven parts will be allowed

Define "unproven". There are a lot of IMO significantly improved parts on the market now which are not "combat proven".


2. Some what accurate.
I don’t need anything crazy, I am a decent shot but I am not a Marine sniper nor do I play one on tv.

3. Lightweight
I don’t need or want a 8-10 pound rifle bull barrels are totally out of the question I want something that is light, quick, fast and easy to handle.

currently the only AR that I have is a Colt 6920 which is pretty bad ass



and has been very reliable the only problems that I have had with it was a squib load and a bad mag neither of which are the gun’s fault. I just can’t help wanting something more. Exactly what Im not sure. I can’t seem to come to a conclusion. This is where you guys come in. Give me some opinions on what you would build for your
Ultimate SHTF- home defense - plinking - fun - range - go to AR-15 type rifle.

I have not decided on a barrel length. I am considering 12” 14.5” and 16” I really like the Noveske 12.5 Crusader but their VTAC combat carbine’s look nice too. The only downside to a 16” Noveske is that I don’t think that they make any 16” barrels with carbine length gas systems I don’t know why but I would like to avoid getting a middy.

This is an error IMO as the midlength configuration is far superior for a 16" barrel and probably a 14.5" as well. Personally I avoid 16" barrels with carbine gas systems at this point. You're pretty much all over the map here if you don't know if you want a 12" or 16" barrel, notwithstanding SBR/NFA stamp issues, etc.


Also how do Noveske barrel contours compare to my 6920’s barrel contour are the Noveske’s going to be heavier?

I haven't seen the figures on the 16" Noveske light recce but the Noveske 14.5" (N4) was designed with the same weight as a standard M4 barrel but with a much superior profile. The 16" should be very close in weight but once again with a much improved profile and the superior midlength gas system. The Noveske is also hammer forged and with the heavier chrome lining, all around a far superior choice.

This is important because if it is going to be the ultimate AR it must have a suppressor on it which will in turn make it more muzzle heavy so I would really like to keep the weight down as much as possible. Also can the VTAC’s fore end tube be taken apart for cleaning? I was also thinking of buying a 12.5 crusader barrel and installing a VTAC fore end tube on it but I don’t know if there would be enough clearance for a suppressor?

If you're looking for a lightweight SHTF rifle then Noveske's heavy stainless barrels are NOT the way to go. The N4 light rifle/light recce barrels are a completely different prospect than the heavy stainless precision barrels. If you go with a 16" barrel then suppressor use makes the midlength gas system even more important by the way.

What do you need to clean under the handguard? There's really nothing that needs routine maintenance, if it gets really dirty or something just hose it out then blast it with compressed air or something.

I have also been considering a Larue Stealth upper again I don’t know if I should get a 12” or a 16” If I went with the12” Larue option I was thinking about installing one of the PRI carbon fiber free float handguards in place of the Larue rail but I haven’t read enough about them on here to know if they are GTG or just mall ninja crap. But I have seen pick’s on here of them and I like how it looks when a suppressor is sticking out of them. I also like that there are no sharp cheese grater rails to scrape up your hands.

You say you want a lightweight SHTF rifle but then keep talking about heavy weight precision rifles.


So I guess you could say I want the best all around rifle out of these choices. Let’s hear what you guys think and any picks would be great.

I think you really need to slow down and get some more information and preferably experience with different rifle configurations before you make a big $ decision. You're throwing around a lot of options here which are very disparate in their qualities.

Personally I would go for the best quality / highest performance parts I can get for the mission I want the rifle for. No factory complete rifle meets my personal criteria.

As far as a recommendation to you with what's available off the shelf right now for the stated requirements would be a Noveske light recce. Depending on your budget, timeframe, etc you might also talk to MSTN about a custom build - they are the only source for custom builds with the N4 barrels. The previously mentioned KAC SR15E3 looks to be an excellent rifle but has a signficant disadvantage for "SHTF"/long term maintainability as it uses several critical parts which are non-standard and would have to be replaced with KAC proprietary parts. I have the same issue with Colt for using non-standard FCG parts.

One upgrade I might consider although I haven't heard much in the way of user feedback - is the LWRC updated bolt (available from JP rifles).
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 2:45:55 PM EST
Multi Year?....HA!

Since 1970

There is no such thing as "the perfect" AR

I have come to the conclusion that they are more like golf clubs than rifles...

With each course...maybe even each shot...needing it's own particular "club"

Putter.. 9 irons.. #3 wood driver... etc etc...

Super light wts in 16" carb 16" middie 18" with mid mid and 20" with rifle length gas tubes.

Heavier wt SBRs...lighter wt SBRs....medium wt SBRS

Then theres SPRs...and Varmints....and super Varmints

RECCES and RECONS medium contours and light contours...

Then there are piston driven in all the aformentioned varities..

And the "Variants" 204....6.8.. 6.5.. 7.62.. .243.. Beowulfs.. and SOCOMS...

One wife...maybe.....one AR.....nevah happen...

IMO

But best of luck and deep pockets in your search...

The journey is the better part of getting there....


Link Posted: 10/14/2008 2:47:49 PM EST
Sabre Defense with a fluted stainless 18" barrel. Mid length gas system.
Full length free float hand guards.
Flip up iron by Mid West.
ARMS high rings with a 1x5 Loopy Ill. scope.
Quality lower, magpul furniture.
Just simply bad and beyond accurate with 77gr OTMs.
YMMV but mine are great.
Cwackers
PS Built both mine myself. Not even close to a problem.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 2:53:12 PM EST
I have two answers:

(1) Sell me that POS, nasty unreliable 6920 for $20!!!

(2) Seriously now, you own pretty much THE highest standard of an AR-15 type carbine made by THE people own the TDP! The very recipe of what ends up being the weapon our troops are using in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere!

You are suffering from the "grass is greener."

The FN SCAR seems to have a lot of "nice to have" features but your 6920 is THE standard.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 2:56:32 PM EST
You already have a 6920 and its not perfect for your needs? I don't think you will ever find anything suitable for you then.

The 6920 is simple, reliable, adaptable, and standard parts and ammo are readily available. I don't see a problem here.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 3:05:43 PM EST
find?

the only way to get the ultimate anything is to make it yourself.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 10:23:10 PM EST
This is an error IMO as the midlength configuration is far superior for a 16" barrel and probably a 14.5" as well. Personally I avoid 16" barrels with carbine gas systems at this point. You're pretty much all over the map here if you don't know if you want a 12" or 16" barrel, notwithstanding SBR/NFA stamp issues, etc.

What makes a midlength superior? I have shot thousands of rounds with my carbine length gas system with no problems as have most others on here that have quality tier 1 rifles. IMO it seems to be a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist.

If you're looking for a lightweight SHTF rifle then Noveske's heavy stainless barrels are NOT the way to go.

See I did not know for sure that their stainless barrels were heavy contour barrels.
Am I crazy to think that if I want a SBR then I would want a lightweight, high speed low drag rifle why would Noveske make their SBR’s with Heavy contour barrels?

If you go with a 16" barrel then suppressor use makes the midlength gas system even more important by the way.

If this is true then that is defiantly a consideration that I would have to think about however I am not sure that I agree with that. I have read many reports on here about people having SBR Noveskes with suppressors that have no problems the few that I can remember that did have problems were solved by changing to a different recoil buffer. If anything a 16” barrel should increase reliability regardless of the gas system? I mean why would a 10.5 CQB with a carbine length gas system be reliable with a suppressor and a 14.5 or a 16” not?

What do you need to clean under the handguard? There's really nothing that needs routine maintenance, if it gets really dirty or something just hose it out then blast it with compressed air or something.

When I get done shooting I like to wipe all steel parts with a light coat of oil before I put the gun away. And also because it gets dirty and dusty and needs to be cleaned out. And because I don’t like to see burnt powder residue on my barrel.

You say you want a lightweight SHTF rifle but then keep talking about heavy weight precision rifles.

Again I did not know weather or not these were HBAR’s I just do not understand the concept behind making a SBR with a heavy barrel

I think you really need to slow down and get some more information and preferably experience with different rifle configurations before you make a big $ decision. You're throwing around a lot of options here which are very disparate in their qualities.

That’s why Im here to get more info from people that have experience with these guns. Unfortunately hands on experience will be next to impossible no gunshops stock these kinds of rifles you would be lucky to find a Colt 6920 but mostly all you see are DPMS Stag Bushy’s and other non tier1 guns.

Please don’t take the above comments as me being a smart ass or that I am trying to be arguemenitive I am not I am just trying to decide which way to go there are so many choices it can be very difficult to come to a decision.

P.S. sorry about the text format I don’t know how to quote individual parts the way that you did.
Link Posted: 10/14/2008 11:29:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By JimJones:
What makes a midlength superior?

The gas port is further away from the chamber, so the when the gas is vented from the barrel, down, the gas tube, and into the action, it is at a lower pressure. This allows the gas to operate the action less violently resulting in a smoother recoil impulse and slower wear on the parts. Also, since the bolt is unlocking at a lower chamber pressure, case extraction is more reliable.

It's not that the carbine system doesn't work (it's been proven that it does)--it's that the midlength does it better.


Am I crazy to think that if I want a SBR then I would want a lightweight, high speed low drag rifle why would Noveske make their SBR’s with Heavy contour barrels?

Noveske's short, stainless barrels are for a niche market--people who want a precision barrel in a compact package. If your not terribly worried at making tiny groups on paper, then you'd probably be better served with a lighter, chrome-lined barrel.

If anything a 16” barrel should increase reliability regardless of the gas system? I mean why would a 10.5 CQB with a carbine length gas system be reliable with a suppressor and a 14.5 or a 16” not?

The problem isn't about reliability. Like I said earlier, a carbine gas system throws gas into the action more violently than a midlength gas system. Since a suppressor increases back pressure, that gas gets thrown into the action much more violently when you add the suppressor. That gas ends up hitting you in the face. With a midlength gas system, that gas hits you in the face less hard.

That said, a suppressor hanging off the end of a 16" barrel dramatically throws off the balance of the rifle making it, IMO, very cumbersome and unwieldy compared to the same suppressor on a 10.5" barrel. I'll take a 10.5" + suppressor over a 16" + suppressor any day.


When I get done shooting I like to wipe all steel parts with a light coat of oil before I put the gun away. And also because it gets dirty and dusty and needs to be cleaned out. And because I don’t like to see burnt powder residue on my barrel.

That's fine, but not necessary. Also not really possible with a free floating handguard. You would have to give that up if you want a free floating handguard.

Again I did not know weather or not these were HBAR’s I just do not understand the concept behind making a SBR with a heavy barrel

For extreme precision, just like their long barreled counterparts. If that's not what you're after, then you don't need one. FWIW, I recommend the Noveske N4 barrels if you end up going with a 14.5" or 16". IMO, they offer the best balance between accuracy, durability, and longevity.

P.S. sorry about the text format I don’t know how to quote individual parts the way that you did.

Far left button under the text box when posting your reply.
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 4:56:40 PM EST



Would it be stupid to get a N4 barrel and have it cut down to 12”
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 5:05:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By JimJones:



Would it be stupid to get a N4 barrel and have it cut down to 12”

i believe you cannot buy just the n4 barrel....might be wrong though
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 6:28:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 6:36:57 PM EST
AR 180 Carbine with MI Rail or Robinson XCR
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 6:38:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By JimJones:

Ultimate SHTF- home defense = 12 pump shotgun i recommend Mossberg or Remington

plinking - fun - range = get a ruger 10-22 race rifle, very accurate, very fun, plinking at it's best.



let the flamage begin.
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 6:43:26 PM EST
No wonder, it is in my safe.
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 7:09:12 PM EST
you already have it dude. Just get good ammo.
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 7:12:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2008 7:13:56 PM EST by ChromeLined]
Instead of trying to find it build it with the quality parts of your choosing.Decide long range extreme accurate or self defense close quarters.You have a 6920 so you already have a fighting carbine..how about a custom upper to interchange with just build it as a sniper type upper using a stainless match carbine barrel.
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 7:14:29 PM EST
If you want the 'ultimate' tacti-cool then just buy the most expensive stuff you can possibly find. The more stuff I see on a gun on the range, the more the owner fusses around with it.
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 7:39:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By tdoggy1:

Originally Posted By JimJones:



Would it be stupid to get a N4 barrel and have it cut down to 12”

i believe you cannot buy just the n4 barrel....might be wrong though


I don't think you can either. But you can by the N4 upper. As for cutting it down, give them a call and ask.
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 8:18:17 PM EST
A noble quest. Best of luck.
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 8:34:21 PM EST
Well here's my 2cents and I'm prepared to get flamed. You want reliability first, accuracy 2nd. You want a rifle that CANNOT fail unless some FREAK accident/it gets shot happens. So you don't want an ar. You want an ak-74. but first, if your current rifle fails why would you question it now? Now a '74 will shoot about 2moa or less which will enable you hit a threat in the face at 300 yds+(more than enough 4 shtf if you ask me.) Its piston driven and its not an after-thought like piston ars are. You already have an ar. You may want to rethink this through.

Ok, I suggested an ak in the ar forum - bring it on!!!!
Link Posted: 10/15/2008 9:10:42 PM EST
I still don't get it, your requirements described your 6920
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 5:58:28 PM EST
Its not that my 6920 is not up to any of the tasks. I guess that I see so many bad ass guns on this site I want one too. “ie” SBR’s suppressors, rails, lights, kind of makes my 6920 seam boring.

The more I have been looking around the more I like the VTAC Noveske Carbine I was thinking that I could get the 14.5 and have it cut down to 12” and mount either a AAC M4 2000 or a Surefire FA556AR.

Would this be reliable?
Has anybody tried any thing like this before?
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 6:13:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2008 6:17:37 PM EST by kevinb120]
Why don't you just modify the one you have instead of buying some else's copy of it?

I'm getting in the mindset of hmm.... ACOG or PTR-91? Ecotec or AK47? New rail or Spike's .22 upper? My rifle already hits what I aim at
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 6:22:15 PM EST

There was once a guy who spent his life trying to find the ultimate solvent, the one thing that almost every thing would dissolve in. As he sat drinking a glass of water he realised what it was.


Was was it???

Anyway, have you considered an LMT PISTON?
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 6:28:01 PM EST
For me, the LMT does the job that I look for. I have 1 with all the goodies, and 1 that is essentially a stock M4. I personally love the KISS rifle.
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 6:11:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By LIONHART:

There was once a guy who spent his life trying to find the ultimate solvent, the one thing that almost every thing would dissolve in. As he sat drinking a glass of water he realised what it was.


Was was it???

Anyway, have you considered an LMT PISTON?


Water, the universal solvent.
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 6:26:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2008 6:27:23 AM EST by Baldmonk]
Been shooting Highpower competivly for 20 + years and just starting 3-gun. I have a good feel for what works and doesn't.

My latest build in the works:

- 17" Krieger barrel, .775 under handguards, rifle length gas, 1 /7.7 twist, 5.56 match chamber (not .223) from CLE, no M4 ramps (don't like them. They can push back the bullets that aren't crimped, and that screws with my accuracy)

- Geiselle DMR 2-stage trigger

- CTR stock (I like how tight they lock up)

- LMT Bolt / Carrier

- Sun Devil Lower (I love that you can adjust the lower to upper fit-up. This should have came out years ago.)

- 12" Larue handguard.


Optics will probably be Nightforce 1x4 Mil-dot with zero-stop turrents on a Larue mount.

Link Posted: 10/18/2008 6:43:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By likelinus:
KAC SR15 E3


What he said!
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 8:10:53 AM EST
I'll apologize up front because this will not be your typical ARFCOM response of buy "XYZ" because its the best and the reason it's the best is because it's the newest fad or because it's what I have.

Originally Posted By JimJones:
I have been on a multi year struggle to find the Ultimate AR. Please give me your opinion on what you would do.

FYI, that struggle will never end because there is no one "Ultimate AR". Building a "do-it-all" AR is a compromise and finding the right balance will vary for each person. Even for that one person, it may change and perceived needs and requirements change and as new equiptment becomes availible.

One thing I've come to realize is that the only way to get even close to the ultimate AR for you is to borrow\build\buy and shoot as many different setups as you can and find out what works best for you.

Originally Posted By JimJones:
To me the ultimate AR needs to do the following things
1. Be RELIABLE RELIABLE RELIABLE RELIABLE x 1 million

That's not as hard as some people make it out to be. Take quality parts, assemble them correctly and 99.9% of the time you will be fine. Long term, use good mags and ammo and perform proper maintenance and you should be GTG.

Originally Posted By JimJones:
2. Some what accurate. I don’t need anything crazy, I am a decent shot but I am not a Marine sniper nor do I play one on tv.

This is a non-issue. Just about any AR, even the cheap ones are more then capable of delivering acceptable accuracy for their intended purpose assuming you use decent ammo and do your part.

Originally Posted By JimJones:
3. Lightweight. I don’t need or want a 8-10 pound rifle bull barrels are totally out of the question I want something that is light, quick, fast and easy to handle.

Couple of things here. Overall I agree, most of us have no need for a 10+ lb AR and an HBAR barrel for a fighting carbine is just dumb but keep a couple of things in mind. IMO, overall weight should not be the main objective. I've found that balance is more important then weight. I feel a well balanced weapon is easier to deploy and maneuver then a lighter weapon that is front or rear heavy. I may be alone here but I also think that an AR can be made too light. I think anything under 6lbs is too light and think that ~7lbs to be the sweet spot for a well setup SD AR. One last thing, do not sacrifice quality, reliability or function for the sake of weight savings.

The easiest way to keep the weight down on an AR (beyond avoiding HBAR barrels) is to avoid hanging a bunch of unneeded crap off of your AR. IMO, the average civilian only needs one thing on their AR for SD and that's a weapon light. Weapon light technology isn't exactly where I'd like it to be yet but it has come far enough that you can put on a very capable weapon that won't add a lot of weight to your AR. Just avoid the urge to put on a beacon that can be seen from space.

Optics are nice to haves and if you do, you need some type of rear BUIS but again, don't go crazy here. An Aimpoint or Eotech (with an appropriate mount) is fine. The new Aimpoint Micro T1 is really sweet. Very light, small, tough and has great battery life. IMO, there is no need for 3x magnifiers or 1-4x optics. It is my opinion that the average civilian using their AR for SD will likely never need to take a shot past 100yrds and I've built my SD AR with that in mind.

The last thing is rails. If you spend enough time here you will start to think you have to have a rail system for your AR to be "complete". That is not true and they are not "needed". I will admit that they can be handy depending on your setup but I still think you should try to avoid them if possible. If you can't then look seriously at the DD Omega rail as it hardly adds any weight at all, has a built in sling mount and is easy as hell to install and remove.

Originally Posted By JimJones:
currently the only AR that I have is a Colt 6920 which is pretty bad ass and has been very reliable ... I just can’t help wanting something more. Exactly what Im not sure.

I speak from experience here when I say that the above statement is the direct result of hanging around this place too much. This place instills BRD and the feeling of inadequacy if you don't have 5-10 decked out AR's. That's fine if you have the money to play that game with but just understand it's "want" and not a "need" and that there are probably better ways to spend your free money.

If SD\SHTF is truly your main focus, I suggest you buy another 6920 (or a very similarly setup LMT, BCM or SDI) because when it comes to SD, the adage "2 is 1, 1 is none" really can't be stressed enough. I know building\buying another AR just like the one you already have may seem boring or stupid from a shooters\hobbiest perspective but from a SD perspective, there is nothing smarter and for that purpose you can't do much better then 2 similarly equipped 6920's

After that, if you still have the need or desire (and money) for something else then go for it. There are a lot of cool possibilities but just remember that those will be for fun so build whatever it is the interests you.
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