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Posted: 3/4/2005 12:55:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/4/2005 12:57:33 AM EST by Atreides]
I have been reading through all of the info here about rounds like the 6.5MM Grendel and 6.8MM SPC being tested by our Military, and how because of red tape it is unlikely that there will be a change to the primary caliber (the 5.56MM) for our Armed Forces anytime soon. From what I read I believe that the whole idea of going with a heavier round in our militarys battle rifles is a good idea.

My question is: Are such specialty rounds still seeing actual combat in the conflicts in Afganistan & Iraq today? And if so, wouldn't ammunition supplies be an issue? I mean, superior ballistics wouldn't mean much if you can't get ammo right? I admit, I am totally ignorant as to how the military supplies our soldiers in the field but I would think a "specialy" round would be sort of a hassle for the soldier with such a weapon. 5.56MM rounds & magazines would be much more accessible where ever you go right? It's my understanding that 6.8MM rounds & magazines are in high demand for the general public and only a few manefacturers are producing such products. Is it because these manefacturers are supplying the military primarily and don't have much extras to sell to the public?

Since on the subject of bullets larger than 5.56MM, I've read that some Ranger units have been issued M14's and I have seen pictures of some of them in Iraq, but I haven't seen any pictures of them in Afganistan. Do all of the militarys M14's have Full-Auto capability? I was just wondering.

Anyway thanks for reading.
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 1:54:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Atreides:
Is it because these manefacturers are supplying the military primarily and don't have much extras to sell to the public? DING DING DING! we have a winner!

Since on the subject of bullets larger than 5.56MM, I've read that some Ranger units have been issued M14's and I have seen pictures of some of them in Iraq, but I haven't seen any pictures of them in Afganistan. Do all of the militarys M14's have Full-Auto capability? I was just wondering.

Anyway thanks for reading.



i think all m14s are full auto- hence the m14 designation.

however, iirc, the sniper rifles some were using a decade or 2 ago, were national match m1as, tricked out by the usmc gunsmiths. dunno if these are the guns that got dusted off, or not.

i'm sure someone with more/better info will be along shortly.
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 2:35:53 AM EST
Are'nt there some SR25's in service also? That's a .308 as well.
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 2:56:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
i think all m14s are full auto- hence the m14 designation.

No, they were supposedly all built to be FA capable, but many/most were issued with a "selector lock" instead of a selector, effectively making them semi-auto only. Without the selector, connector, and sear trip, an M14 is pretty much just a government owned M1A.
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 2:57:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By 45-Bravo:
Are'nt there some SR25's in service also? That's a .308 as well.



That's what Troy told me in a post I made about .308's/
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 3:06:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By druncuncas:

Originally Posted By Atreides:
Is it because these manefacturers are supplying the military primarily and don't have much extras to sell to the public? DING DING DING! we have a winner!

Since on the subject of bullets larger than 5.56MM, I've read that some Ranger units have been issued M14's and I have seen pictures of some of them in Iraq, but I haven't seen any pictures of them in Afganistan. Do all of the militarys M14's have Full-Auto capability? I was just wondering.

Anyway thanks for reading.



i think all m14s are full auto- hence the m14 designation.

however, iirc, the sniper rifles some were using a decade or 2 ago, were national match m1as, tricked out by the usmc gunsmiths. dunno if these are the guns that got dusted off, or not.

i'm sure someone with more/better info will be along shortly.



Thanks for the reply D~

Excuse me for the ignorance about the M14 designation as opposed to the M1A.

I don't own an M1A so I'm not familiar with how to distinguish a M14 from an M1A, but in the picture I saw from Iraq, the soldiers rifle had what looked like a seletor switch on the right side of the reciever. (Similar to the switch on the left side of an old M2)The odd thing about it was the rifle appeared to have been set up for Sniper duty (Scope, extra padding on stock for cheek weld etc.) I was just wondering.
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 3:51:37 AM EST
When speciality rounds are used there's generally enough for those weapons systems. They don't get used in large numbers by large units. As for the M14 they are built with the capablity as mentioned and most are generally semi only (hence M1A civilian version). Even on the semi only ones the selector lock is there and can be mistaking for a selector in photos since its the same location. I just finished a tour with a NM M14 in Iraq. No problem getting M118LR match ammo but there is a storage of magazines. I had 7 which is more than some M14s that the infantry carried that I ran into but I prefer more in combat zone (kept 30 loaded for my M4).

CD
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 6:23:35 AM EST
Thank you very very much for sharing your first hand experience CD, I really appreciate it alot. You cleared up alot of what I was wondering about for sure! Getting back to supplies, your situation of having only 7 magazines for my primary weapon as opposed to 30 would have been a huge concern for me. You mentioned your M4. Were you issued a M1A Along with your M4? Or did you have to turn in your M4 for the M1A?
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 11:41:00 AM EST
I'm one of the lucky ones that get to choose what I carry. Being an SF MSG gives me pull . Last rotation I was issued and signed for the following M4A1, National Match M14, M1911A1, M9, M79 and M240B. When out on convoys I primarly operated a M2 HB up in the turrent. My rifle was generally a backup weapon in that situation. However, when ever I flew I did take the M14 with the 7 mags backuped by the ever present sidearm. I think last time I counted I was also lugging around 105 rds of .45 in Wilson mags!
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 12:17:22 PM EST
There is no military designation of 'M1A' for the M14 rifle. It's still an M14 without the selector switch, just set for Semi. It would be the same if they took some M16s and blocked the switch from going auto. It's still an M16, not an AR15. 'M1A' is the strictly Springfield designation for their civilian M14-style rifle. Your points about different ammo for the M16/M4 causing supply problems is valid. The military has always depended heavily on standardization of all weapons and ammo, so these very problems would not occur among the majority of field units. Testing is always going on in combat theatres, and certain special units will get the new equipment for evaluation. These units will be specially supplied so incompatible equipment/ammo does not get into the normal supply chain. Could this cause problems with those units? Absolutely. If their ammo truck gets whacked on the way up, they could be in a world of shit. Any combat situation is regarded as an opportunity to try new things in field conditions, and as a training opportunity for personnel. I'd say that out military right now has the most experience in today's urban combat in the world, and this is a huge factor in the scheming of those who would oppose us.
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 12:21:27 PM EST
5.56 is a kick ass caliber.
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 4:52:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
I'm one of the lucky ones that get to choose what I carry. Being an SF MSG gives me pull . Last rotation I was issued and signed for the following M4A1, National Match M14, M1911A1, M9, M79 and M240B. When out on convoys I primarly operated a M2 HB up in the turrent. My rifle was generally a backup weapon in that situation. However, when ever I flew I did take the M14 with the 7 mags backuped by the ever present sidearm. I think last time I counted I was also lugging around 105 rds of .45 in Wilson mags!



Comabat_Diver,

What do you think about the FN SCAR? Do you know if it will be issued to all SOCOM units? Also, is your M1911A1 customized (like a Larry Vickers M1911) or a standard model? Lastly, many Quiet Professionals swear by the LeMas Blended Metal Technology (BMT) rounds and I was just wondering, what is your opinion on the matter? Thanks for your time.

Respectfully,

Justin
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 5:05:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
I'm one of the lucky ones that get to choose what I carry. Being an SF MSG gives me pull . Last rotation I was issued and signed for the following M4A1, National Match M14, M1911A1, M9, M79 and M240B. When out on convoys I primarly operated a M2 HB up in the turrent. My rifle was generally a backup weapon in that situation. However, when ever I flew I did take the M14 with the 7 mags backuped by the ever present sidearm. I think last time I counted I was also lugging around 105 rds of .45 in Wilson mags!



Comabat_Diver,

What do you think about the FN SCAR? Do you know if it will be issued to all SOCOM units? Also, is your M1911A1 customized (like a Larry Vickers M1911) or a standard model? Lastly, many Quiet Professionals swear by the LeMas Blended Metal Technology (BMT) rounds and I was just wondering, what is your opinion on the matter? Thanks for your time.

Respectfully,

Justin

SOF adopted the SCAR yes. See this link
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 5:47:10 PM EST
Most M14's are semi only. The gun cant be controlled and is useless on full auto.
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 5:57:43 PM EST
Those M14s with scopes you saw were probably not snipers, some squad marksmen were issued them in regular infantry squads, I believe now they get A4s but I'm not sure. True snipers either get the M40 or the Barrett. (at least in the USMC)
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 6:04:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Those M14s with scopes you saw were probably not snipers, some squad marksmen were issued them in regular infantry squads, I believe now they get A4s but I'm not sure. True snipers either get the M40 or the Barrett. (at least in the USMC)



M21 is also issued as a sniper weapon isnt it?
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 6:06:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2005 6:08:06 PM EST by RolandofGilead]
Army I think maybe, not sure. I'm just a regular old 03 so what I know about snipers is stuff I hear from other Marines or read in the Marine Times.

ETA: the spotter may carry one now that I think about it...again, not totally sure
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 6:13:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2005 6:13:50 PM EST by Slu54]
Hmm. Interesting. Like GHPorter stated, almost all M14s currently in service (mostly with army sniper units, I believe) are either semi-only accurized M21/M14NMs or "semi locked" M14s. I believe the M14 was very difficult to control in fully automatic fire, like Variablebinary already said.

The SEALs do use SR25s, or rather, Mk 11 Mod 0s (I'm not sure if any other branch uses this system; I know the USMC tested as a potential SAM-R candidate). They are in 7.62. The USMC has a M14 built around a McMillan stock and uses it as a DM rifle (its called the DMR).
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 6:15:58 PM EST
Saxon32,

Thanks for the link.

-Justin
Link Posted: 3/9/2005 2:59:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Comabat_Diver,

What do you think about the FN SCAR? Do you know if it will be issued to all SOCOM units? Also, is your M1911A1 customized (like a Larry Vickers M1911) or a standard model? Lastly, many Quiet Professionals swear by the LeMas Blended Metal Technology (BMT) rounds and I was just wondering, what is your opinion on the matter? Thanks for your time.

Respectfully,

Justin



Bump.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 5:21:32 PM EST
Sorry for the delay, been in the field. As to the SCAR haven't seen it yet. Its been proposed and selected but not funded yet. Time will tell its issue within SOCOM. As far as my M1911A1 it was stock out of depot. Took over 200 of them in 2003 and all where stock or a few NM models. Never seen any of the LeMas ammo in two tours there. Only issued M855 Ball and Mk 262 Match for 5.56mm, M80 Ball or M118 LR for the 7.62. Army SF does utilize the Mk 11 Mod 0 (SR25) and Mk 12 models (SPR). Seems that Crane is classifing arms for us lately.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 5:49:21 PM EST
WELCOME BACK!!!


Link Posted: 3/11/2005 11:23:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
Sorry for the delay, been in the field. As to the SCAR haven't seen it yet. Its been proposed and selected but not funded yet. Time will tell its issue within SOCOM. As far as my M1911A1 it was stock out of depot. Took over 200 of them in 2003 and all where stock or a few NM models. Never seen any of the LeMas ammo in two tours there. Only issued M855 Ball and Mk 262 Match for 5.56mm, M80 Ball or M118 LR for the 7.62. Army SF does utilize the Mk 11 Mod 0 (SR25) and Mk 12 models (SPR). Seems that Crane is classifing arms for us lately.



Thank you for the response. But, more importantly, thank you for your service to this country.

Respectfully,

Justin
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 12:09:01 PM EST
May I ask what you think of the MK 262 Mod 1 ammo?

thanks

stay safe and watch your six
Link Posted: 3/11/2005 12:52:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By GHPorter:

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
i think all m14s are full auto- hence the m14 designation.

No, they were supposedly all built to be FA capable, but many/most were issued with a "selector lock" instead of a selector, effectively making them semi-auto only. Without the selector, connector, and sear trip, an M14 is pretty much just a government owned M1A.



That's what I've seen. I haven't seen a FA M14 in over 10 years.
Link Posted: 3/12/2005 6:05:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 9:06:35 AM EST by CitySlicker]

Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
May I ask what you think of the MK 262 Mod 1 ammo?

thanks

stay safe and watch your six




Combat_Diver,

Can you also offer your opinion on the 5.56 caliber as a whole? In your expert opinion, are the new 6.5 mm Grendel and 6.8 mm SPC cartridges really that necessary? I only ask because those same Quiet Professionals [who swear by the LeMas BMT ammo] also say that 5.56 is very affective at "killing people" (in their own words) and I was just wondering what someone with your recent experience has to say about the matter. Thank you.

Respectfully,

Justin
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 12:20:58 PM EST
bump.
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