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Posted: 4/27/2011 2:20:11 PM EDT
This is from 50 yards. XM193 55 Grain. Troy rear BUIS.
Spikes ST M4 LE 1x7 Upper Anvil Arms Lower RRA LPK J&P Springs Magpul CTR DSA Buffer Tube Kit 
Was using a grip pod as well for stability. Got my sights to mechanical zero. How is that even possible? I am barely on target here. I don't know if its the gun or (obviously) me just being a shitty shooter. Is it possible that I did not do something correct when building the lower, and it is somehow affecting the shots? Everything went boom so I do not think its that. Going to go on hometown to ask someone local for some help/tips. |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 2:23:02 PM EDT
[#1]
I'm seeing breathing while firing, inconsistent sight picture, and jerking the trigger (if you're a righty)
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Posted: 4/27/2011 2:26:55 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I'm seeing breathing while firing, inconsistent sight picture, and jerking the trigger (if you're a righty) I concur with one, or all of those things... Or maybe anticipating recoil, and jerking the rifle. |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 2:27:39 PM EDT
[#3]
What exactly do you mean when you say you got your sights to mechanical zero? Do you mean you just adjusted the windage and elevation adjustments to the middle of their travel and then shot the gun?
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Posted: 4/27/2011 2:32:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Try from a bench, with some bags. pop off 3 rounds, taking as much time as necessary to ensure your single aim point. The shouts should end up in a tight group, and help identify what you need to adjust to get on target. Repeat as necessary. Once you are sighted in, then go to various stances. Getting the gun dialed in will let you work on correcting any posture issues. If the gun is out, you will end up chasing your tail.
Do not change your point of aim.
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Posted: 4/27/2011 2:56:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Try from a bench, with some bags. pop off 3 rounds, taking as much time as necessary to ensure your single aim point. The shouts should end up in a tight group, and help identify what you need to adjust to get on target. Repeat as necessary. Once you are sighted in, then go to various stances. Getting the gun dialed in will let you work on correcting any posture issues. If the gun is out, you will end up chasing your tail. Do not change your point of aim. This. You want to remove YOU as much as possible form the sighting in process and get the gun zeroed. Bench, bags, calm day, etc. |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 2:58:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Trigger control plain and simple.
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:03:29 PM EDT
[#7]
That target is for 25 meters or 27.3 yards.
If you are going to shoot at 50 yards you should use a 50 yard target Slow down your trigger finger |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:07:45 PM EDT
[#8]
I think you'll find your gun shoots just fine with somemore practice. That looks like how I shoot pistol
 . What people have suggested here are good ideas. They're fundamentals. Any shooting instruction will help, then practice those things. Trigger control, breathing, sight picture, recoil anticipation/management, stance, grip.
I too need more work on the fundamentals - heck, who doesn't. I just ordered and am waiting for the "Art of the Tactical Carbine" video to give me some ideas for practice. Maybe something like that? Keep after it, it gets fun, just relax and take your time. Have plenty of ammo so you aren't counting quarters each shot....... -JC |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:13:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Breath control
Relax Aim Squeeze Shoot |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:14:29 PM EDT
[#10]
If no one has mentioned it yet, be sure your using your smaller rear sight aperture
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:20:25 PM EDT
[#11]
I should have mentioned this was not free hand. This was off the bench using the grippod as a bipod. I used the smaller aperture.
Where can I get one of the 50 yard sight in targets? THanks for the tips everyone. |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:24:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: I should have mentioned this was not free hand. This was off the bench using the grippod as a bipod. I used the smaller aperture. Where can I get one of the 50 yard sight in targets? THanks for the tips everyone. Set the target at 25 meters/27.3 yards or 82 feet and you'll be fine |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:25:05 PM EDT
[#13]
its not too bad, looks like you scored a left arm flesh wound :)
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:27:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Check out www.targetz.com
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:33:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Have someone else shoot your rifle.
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:34:58 PM EDT
[#16]
DAMN.....Looks like a little anticipation! Was anyone shooting at you?
Really try shooting from a bench and see if that helps out with getting the groups grouped and work from there. |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:44:03 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I should have mentioned this was not free hand. This was off the bench using the grippod as a bipod. I used the smaller aperture. Where can I get one of the 50 yard sight in targets? THanks for the tips everyone. Set the target at 25 meters/27.3 yards or 82 feet and you'll be fine this group size is almost 10 inches @ 50yds from a benched position... 
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Posted: 4/27/2011 3:51:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Where do you live?
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Posted: 4/27/2011 4:08:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Where do you live? This, I'm sure someone local to you would be willing to join you at a range and give you some pointers to get you grouping a lot better. |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 4:09:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Try again at 25 yds. Shoot from a bench as others said: meaning from a sandbag rest which will be more stable than the grip pod. Also, go with a known good rifle shooter who can try as well which will take you out of the equation. Whenever I think my sights are off (mostly with pistols), I always get a better shooter than me to confirm and rule out shooter error on my part.
You should be able to get dime to quarter size groups at 25 yds and .75-2" groups at 50 yds from a sandbag rest even with FMJ ammo. |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 4:18:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Jeez. Please don't shoot from a bench. Learn to shoot from a prone position. Support the rifle on its handguards. Make sure you are as close to centered as you can. Lay your feet flat and relax and make sure you are breathing. Make sure the small aperture is up for now. My guess is you have waaaaay too much finger on the trigger. Only use enough finger so that you can press the trigger straight back. Dry fire as you can and safely. Your sight picture should be the front post clear in the center of the rear aperture which should be somewhat fuzzy. Your target will be somewhat fuzzy. Concentrate on the front sight and your trigger press. Fight the urge to look up and see where you are shooting. Fire ten rounds slowly (don't try to hold your breath the whole time either) without moving your position on the stock or changing your sight picture. Adjust as necessary. It shouldn't be that far off from mechanical zero.
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Posted: 4/27/2011 5:06:11 PM EDT
[#22]
So using your theory, it must be impossible to obtain a tight group on a 25yd target, set at 100yds? Think again.
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Posted: 4/27/2011 5:13:29 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Jeez. Please don't shoot from a bench. Learn to shoot from a prone position. Support the rifle on its handguards. Make sure you are as close to centered as you can. Lay your feet flat and relax and make sure you are breathing. Make sure the small aperture is up for now. My guess is you have waaaaay too much finger on the trigger. Only use enough finger so that you can press the trigger straight back. Dry fire as you can and safely. Your sight picture should be the front post clear in the center of the rear aperture which should be somewhat fuzzy. Your target will be somewhat fuzzy. Concentrate on the front sight and your trigger press. Fight the urge to look up and see where you are shooting. Fire ten rounds slowly (don't try to hold your breath the whole time either) without moving your position on the stock or changing your sight picture. Adjust as necessary. It shouldn't be that far off from mechanical zero. the purpose of using a bench is to remove you from the equation. Its how a rifle should be sighted in, and where one learns trigger control. You can focus 100% on trigger and sights. Once you master that, go to prone. Then, any poor groups are you and its easier to isolate the problem. Nothing wrong with starting prone, but its easier to master trigger control and build confidence from the bench. Espetially new shooters. |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 5:17:33 PM EDT
[#24]
OP
if you're near SE PA and want some help shoot me a PM.... if not, like was said - move in to 25 meters... shoot from a good prone position - don't shoot supported prone, shoot real prone - WORK at that prone position at home.... do some snapping in every night. trigger control, trigger control, trigger control - slow steady squeezes.... |
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Posted: 4/27/2011 5:28:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: So using your theory, it must be impossible to obtain a tight group on a 25yd target, set at 100yds? Think again. The OP target has designations for 25 yards, not 50 yards. If you can punch a ragged hole at 100yds, congratulations. This is not the case in the OP. Simplify everything. Can some one else shoot the rifle in a tight group? can you shoot different rifles in a tight group? This will help to determine if it is the shooter, or the rifle. Looking at the target, I'm going with shooter error. If this is the case, read up and understand shooting basics. Focus on the front sight. Aim center of the bullseye, slow exhale and hold. Squeeze the trigger lightly, and be surprised by the discharge. Repeat for a group of 3 rounds. DO NOT try to compensate to hit the bulls. Aim for the center of the bulls everytime, and watch your group. If you know you had a bad shot, dis-regard. The center of the 3 round group, is where your rifle is pointed, and you will need to compensate on your sights. Figure out what you need to move, and move it. Repeat the 3 round group. At this point, you should be pretty much on target, but feel free to refine as much as you desire. If things seem to be moving around. Check your "Cheek Weld" first, then grip, and trigger pull. All of these are readily available info on the net. If you don't do everything the same, neither will your rifle. practice, practice, practice.
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Posted: 4/27/2011 5:57:21 PM EDT
[#26]
Do you shoot handguns? If not, do...this will make you tremendously better with a rifle. Other than that all i can recommend is trigger control. This will sound strange but get yourself a $30 daisy red ryder, sit in your office/bedroom etc and keep firing at a target on a cardboard box. It will help you focus on the shot instead of all the stuff you shouldn't focus on while making a shot. I cant shoot my "real" guns daily but shoot the 'ole red ryder everyday at the office! Then turn around and duplicate everything and you'll be just fine.
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Posted: 4/27/2011 7:32:38 PM EDT
[#27]
Looks like you need to adjust windage and bullet impact. You also look to jerk the rifle when you shoot. Practice will certainly help!
 At least you hit paper!
Quoted:
Do you shoot handguns? If not, do...this will make you tremendously better with a rifle. Other than that all i can recommend is trigger control. This will sound strange but get yourself a $30 daisy red ryder, sit in your office/bedroom etc and keep firing at a target on a cardboard box. It will help you focus on the shot instead of all the stuff you shouldn't focus on while making a shot. I cant shoot my "real" guns daily but shoot the 'ole red ryder everyday at the office! Then turn around and duplicate everything and you'll be just fine.
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Posted: 4/27/2011 10:52:23 PM EDT
[#28]
The windage should be easy to adjust, the up and down needs some serious practice.
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Posted: 4/28/2011 2:20:53 AM EDT
[#29]
The windage is not hard to adjust onto target- in fact, it looks like you're horizontal dispersion isn't that bad. However, your vertical dispersion suggests you're shooting at different points in your respiratory cycle.
In addition to the all the pointers given above, give these two videos from the USMC a chance. They go into more detail about the fundamentals of marksmanship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITp2OM7Qzqs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TvmWdDRZ0s&feature=relmfu <––- this video contains explanation of breathing control. |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 4:56:42 AM EDT
[#30]
I still want to know what the OP meant by mechanical zero.
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Posted: 4/28/2011 5:12:27 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
I still want to know what the OP meant by mechanical zero. Your FSP is flush with the base & the rear sight apperature is centered. |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 5:44:03 AM EDT
[#32]
You'll want to actually adjust your sights. Very few rifles are actually zeroed at "mechanical zero."
The rest of the guys covered most of the shooting fundamentals to work on already. No one starts off an expert marksman, hell, I'm not even close. Just do your best to work on it every time you go to the range. Think about what you're doing. 1. Practice shooting after exhaling (I prefer after inhaling, but as long as you're consistent and you aren't breathing during the shot, it doesn't matter) 2. Squeeze the trigger, don't pull. Do not squeeze with your entire hand, only your trigger finger. 3. Practice proper follow-through (don't immediately let go of the trigger, hold it back after the shot, wait, then release. You should hear the trigger click and reset) 4. Keep the stock at the same adjustment and keep your cheek as close as you can to welded to the stock. You want to have a consistent sight picture. 5. Use skeletal support, don't use muscular support. If you are using your muscles to hold the rifle entirely, you will tire quickly and shake. Best of luck to you. |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 5:48:41 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I still want to know what the OP meant by mechanical zero. Your FSP is flush with the base & the rear sight apperature is centered. This |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 5:49:31 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: You'll want to actually adjust your sights. Very few rifles are actually zeroed at "mechanical zero." The rest of the guys covered most of the shooting fundamentals to work on already. No one starts off an expert marksman, hell, I'm not even close. Just do your best to work on it every time you go to the range. Think about what you're doing. 1. Practice shooting after exhaling (I prefer after inhaling, but as long as you're consistent and you aren't breathing during the shot, it doesn't matter) 2. Squeeze the trigger, don't pull. Do not squeeze with your entire hand, only your trigger finger. 3. Practice proper follow-through (don't immediately let go of the trigger, hold it back after the shot, wait, then release. You should hear the trigger click and reset) 4. Keep the stock at the same adjustment and keep your cheek as close as you can to welded to the stock. You want to have a consistent sight picture. 5. Use skeletal support, don't use muscular support. If you are using your muscles to hold the rifle entirely, you will tire quickly and shake. Best of luck to you. |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 6:12:18 AM EDT
[#35]
One question is the recoil felt kind of violent. Would I benefit from a heavier buffer perhaps? I am using the stock buffer in the DSA tube kit, don't know what weight it is.
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Posted: 4/28/2011 6:21:44 AM EDT
[#36]
If you do everything right before the shot is fired breathing, trigger control, sight picture the recoil itself shouldn't have any effect on accuracy.
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Posted: 4/28/2011 6:23:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: If you do everything right before the shot is fired breathing, trigger control, sight picture the recoil itself shouldn't have any effect on accuracy. also, make sure you have a solid hold on the rifle - not a death grip, but don't just sit it there either high firm pistol grip butt of the rifle tucked into your shoulder pocket sold cheek weld on the comb of the stock those will help reduce felt recoil also
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Posted: 4/28/2011 6:41:22 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you do everything right before the shot is fired breathing, trigger control, sight picture the recoil itself shouldn't have any effect on accuracy. also, make sure you have a solid hold on the rifle - not a death grip, but don't just sit it there either high firm pistol grip butt of the rifle tucked into your shoulder pocket sold cheek weld on the comb of the stock those will help reduce felt recoil also I think the way I am sitting is part of the problem as well. So this should help. Thanks. |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 6:58:29 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you do everything right before the shot is fired breathing, trigger control, sight picture the recoil itself shouldn't have any effect on accuracy. also, make sure you have a solid hold on the rifle - not a death grip, but don't just sit it there either high firm pistol grip butt of the rifle tucked into your shoulder pocket sold cheek weld on the comb of the stock those will help reduce felt recoil also I think the way I am sitting is part of the problem as well. So this should help. Thanks. Square your shoulders to the target. Let your whole body absorb the recoil not just your arm/shoulder. |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 7:31:40 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 4/28/2011 8:01:41 AM EDT
[#41]
Don't worry about getting a certain type of target. <Comment removed - Z> When your shots are strung up and down the way yours are it usually means you're not shooting in your natural pause between breaths. Get comfrotable, don't alter your breathing pattern and shoot in the natural pause using good trigger control and you should be fine. Your groups will come down and then you can start dialing in some left windage. Have fun.
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Posted: 4/28/2011 9:28:38 AM EDT
[#42]
How long has it been since your last eye check up. I have a grandson that shoots a good pattern but consistantly off to one side. He needs glasses.
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Posted: 4/28/2011 9:54:47 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I still want to know what the OP meant by mechanical zero. Your FSP is flush with the base & the rear sight apperature is centered. This Got it. I wouldn't expect that to be where every rifle's POI is though. Has anyone here had one that worked out that way? I've only used ones with fixed FSBs and flip up rear BUIS though. |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 9:59:31 AM EDT
[#44]
Bring your rifle to an Appleseed event http://www.appleseedinfo.org/as_faq.html and learn to shoot it properly, including how to adjust the sights.
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Posted: 4/28/2011 10:13:30 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: So using your theory, it must be impossible to obtain a tight group on a 25yd target, set at 100yds? Think again. Those targets are tiny. If the target it hard to see, it's hard to shoot with irons. He should try an NRA 25 yard pistol bullseye at 25 to sight in for the standard zero. Then he should practice off the bench with a 100 yard bullseye. Once he gets the mechanics, he ought to practice offhand, prone, etc. OP, look up appleseed clinics or M1 Garand clinics. Both will give you a crash course in the fundamentals of marksmanship. From there you'll have a decent foundation for whatever you want to do. |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 10:21:17 AM EDT
[#46]
I dont have access to 25 yards, only 50.
If I want to shoot at 25 yards on my 50, then I would need to move up to the berm and there is no bench I can shoot from there. So the standard size paper is to small to shoot at here from 50? |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 10:23:42 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: That target is designed to sight in the AR15/M16 at 300 yards. It will only accomplish this if set to 25 yards. If that was not your goal, it doesn't really matter. I dont have access to 25 yards, only 50. If I want to shoot at 25 yards on my 50, then I would need to move up to the berm and there is no bench I can shoot from there. So the standard size paper is to small to shoot at here from 50? However, the target may be hard to see at 50. That could cause you issues as a nwe shooter. ETA: As previously stated, mechanical zero very rarely actually puts the rounds on target. That's why we have "adjustable" sights.  |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 10:35:45 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That target is designed to sight in the AR15/M16 at 300 yards. It will only accomplish this if set to 25 yards. If that was not your goal, it doesn't really matter.
I dont have access to 25 yards, only 50. If I want to shoot at 25 yards on my 50, then I would need to move up to the berm and there is no bench I can shoot from there. So the standard size paper is to small to shoot at here from 50? However, the target may be hard to see at 50. That could cause you issues as a nwe shooter. ETA: As previously stated, mechanical zero very rarely actually puts the rounds on target. That's why we have "adjustable" sights.
I just figured mechanical was a good starting point to begin to sight in at, then go from there. Can anyone link to the targets I should be using? I went to targetz but they print on regular computer paper as well. Thanks again for all info |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 12:10:08 PM EDT
[#49]
You could also setup your targets to be high enough at 25 yards that the shots will impact on the berm. I do that all the time at my range, or do they disallow it?
They generally don't care as long as all your shots are hitting the berm. |
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Posted: 4/28/2011 1:02:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That target is designed to sight in the AR15/M16 at 300 yards. It will only accomplish this if set to 25 yards. If that was not your goal, it doesn't really matter. I dont have access to 25 yards, only 50. If I want to shoot at 25 yards on my 50, then I would need to move up to the berm and there is no bench I can shoot from there. So the standard size paper is to small to shoot at here from 50? However, the target may be hard to see at 50. That could cause you issues as a nwe shooter. ETA: As previously stated, mechanical zero very rarely actually puts the rounds on target. That's why we have "adjustable" sights. I just figured mechanical was a good starting point to begin to sight in at, then go from there. Can anyone link to the targets I should be using? I went to targetz but they print on regular computer paper as well. Thanks again for all info mechanical zero is where you should start with a new rifle, correct there. those targets are fine but shoot them at 25 meters, they simulate a 300 yd target - which means at 50yds you're shooting ~600yards go to a stationary store and pick up a big roll of white paper - put that target in the middle of the big piece of white paper and just practice getting groups - when you can get a steady grouping, then move your sights as shown on the target (again at 25m) |
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