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Posted: 8/13/2003 6:13:29 AM EDT
I am purchasing a quality safe. The locks are S & G. A very good company supplying locks for safe companies throughout the United States. I looked at the dial and it seems damn sturdy. The cost is $100 more to go keypad. I do not plan to go in and out too often. I like how sturdy the combo dial mechanism is versus the dial pad. Since Jr. High School, I have never had trouble with dial combo's. I am interested in having veterans chime in and give me your opinions.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:21:13 AM EDT
I am also good with combo locks, but I got my safe delivered yesterday and it took about 10 tries to master the combo. In retrospect I should have gone with the keypad. I know how to use it now, but it is still tedious.....
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:25:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 6:26:08 AM EDT by shaggy]
Go with the dial. In my experience, electronic gadgetry has a way of crapping out at the worst possible times. Additionally, from what I've seen of other keypad type devices, the more you use a certain number combination on them, the more those numbers show wear, thus the easier it may be to narrow down the numbers in the actual combination. (if the combo is "9-2-7-3" those numbers may start to show more wear so although an intruder may not know the exact order of the combo, he may be able to narrow it down to those four numbers and just run through all the possible permutations of those four.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:27:43 AM EDT
which ever you select, make sure you don't leave the house w/o locking the safes up.. I've hear a couple stories here where they were hit when they didn't. A safe only works when you use it properly.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:33:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 6:34:26 AM EDT by GDITheman]
i just bought a safe on sunday with an s&g dial. opens very easily and seems to be pretty sturdy. the dial was easier than i expected it to be. i didn't want a key pad in case of a fire. even a minor fire may do heat damage to the key pad and not the safe.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:44:56 AM EDT
i have a cannon with a dial pad and a national security with a dial. dial pad is quicker but i dont trust it as much as the regular dial...............
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 6:55:07 AM EDT
Mine has both on it. Must admit I use the key pad 99% of the time. Combo only added when I leave town. So far 4 years and much much use and key pad is holding up like new
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 7:16:04 AM EDT
I went with the dial pad on my Sentry. Its fast and it has a back up key lock behind the battery compartment. I've owned it for two years now and the pad has seen alot of use. So far its holding its own. I'm still on the same battery, but I'm going to change it out soon, just for GP. One thing I don't like about the keypad is that it "beeps" when each # is pushed. Silent would be better. Still faster than a dial and more convienant for me.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 7:28:32 AM EDT
My Cannon dealer convinced me to go with the keypad. They use a commercial version used on ATM machines. It's MUCH faster, easier to use when you are rattled and need to get in to the safe, and are very reliable.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 7:54:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shaggy: Additionally, from what I've seen of other keypad type devices, the more you use a certain number combination on them, the more those numbers show wear, thus the easier it may be to narrow down the numbers in the actual combination.
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Change the combination on a regular basis. Problem solved.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 8:01:28 AM EDT
I've *heard* that keypads can be "hacked" with the right equipment. I dunno how true that is, but I'd rather have a dial just because you don't have to worry about batteries, EMP, etc.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 9:08:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 9:08:49 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By shaggy: Additionally, from what I've seen of other keypad type devices, the more you use a certain number combination on them, the more those numbers show wear, thus the easier it may be to narrow down the numbers in the actual combination.
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Mine has a 6 digit combination. 0-9 available to choose from. That's 1,000,000 possible combinations. Assuming I don't use the same number twice, I've shown wear on 6 digits. That's still 46656 possible combinations
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 9:16:38 AM EDT
Dial for 23 years. Keypad for 4 years. KEYPAD. Mine has the self charger, no batteries. JMO
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 9:26:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4Nate: I've *heard* that keypads can be "hacked" with the right equipment. I dunno how true that is, but I'd rather have a dial just because you don't have to worry about batteries, [red][b]EMP[/b][/red], etc.
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[red][b]EMP[/b][/red] huh? Well if there's an EMP, don't expect for me to defend my home, I will more then likely fried. Just screwing with ya. No, those are valid concerns.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 10:14:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 10:16:44 AM EDT by danonly]
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: My Cannon dealer convinced me to go with the keypad. They use a commercial version used on ATM machines. It's MUCH faster, easier to use when you are rattled and need to get in to the safe, and are very reliable.
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I don't know about you, but i use the safe for STORAGE! The weapons that i want to have accessable, are accessable or in a cheap cabinet in the main part of the house. I have a dial on my safe, with a key to lock the dial from spinning. If the safe was in the main part of the house, and you are in the house, there are ways to *almost* finish the dial combo then lock the dial with the key. If you are in a hurry, turn the key, spin the dial till it stops, OPEN! depends where you are gonna put the safe, how far from where you sleep it is, etc. I have my safe in the basement, i sleep on the floor (in a bed) above it. If someone comes into my house, 95% of the time they will be between me and the safe. I need a gun to fight to my safe in that case. run the possible oh crap! scenarios for your situation- burglar, home invasion, needing to help a neighbor in a hurry, etc.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 10:16:20 AM EDT
I've never seen a keypad safe that didn't have a key back up. If you have a keypad safe that doesn't have a key backup, then EMP is certainly an issue. Otherwise, its just a PITA to find the key.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 12:53:22 PM EDT
The electronic keypads have failsafe key locks? Can they be picked? I have heard that the factory has master combinations for the electroic keypads that can open any of their safes. Is that rumor or do the dial combos also have a factory master combination that works? On dial combos you can dial in your combo and leave the last number a few clicks away so that you can access your own safe very quickly even in total darkness.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:00:24 PM EDT
Keypad, I've owned it for 2 years now and would never go to a dial lock. I go in it at least 3-4 times a day and haven't changed the batteries once.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 2:16:08 PM EDT
Keypad all the way. I had my safe for nearly 10 years, and still had trouble with the combo. The keypad takes about 2 seconds to get into. never again will I have to dial in a combination.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 4:08:38 PM EDT
Worked for a safe store for 2 years now. the Keypads acount for about 2% of our sales. And they acount for about 98% of our problems. Doesn't matter what type of lock from the Cheep LG to the $1500 one on the new GSA safes. They all have problems. S&G said they have fix all the bugs on the new ones coming out now, but they said the same thing 2 years ago, and we are replacing them with dails now. Just my .02
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 4:58:45 PM EDT
If you have a keypad safe that doesn't have a key backup, then EMP is certainly an issue.
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It's still not an issue. If there is an EMP close enough to you to damage the keypad, then I *promise* you that the zombies will be otherwise occupied for the 20-30 mins that it will take you to open your safe with an axe.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 5:11:31 PM EDT
i think the dial has a lifetime warranty and the electronic pad has only a 1 yr warranty. you might think about that when choosing.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 5:43:07 PM EDT
I am so confused. I went to the safe company and the manager I deal with is out sick. So I have a bit more time before making my purchase. They sell the electronic key and pad for $100 premium. They also sell a Sargent & Green Pulsetronic Remote Entry Combo Lock for $150. Please chime in and tell me if anyone has personal knowledge of the pulsetronic device. It seems neat. Thanks
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 6:29:38 AM EDT
Believe it or Not: It is almost even between Dial versus Keypad Any idea about this pulsetronic device. You just hold it up to the safe after punching the combo in it and it opens the safe up automatically.
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 6:58:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2003 6:59:16 AM EDT by jimtash9]
I went with the keypad and I will tell you why. When I went to purchase a safe there were both versions there that I tested. After turning and turning a dial on one, I couldn't get it to open. The salesman tried too but couldn't get it until about the third try. I figured what's the point of having a safe if I couldn't get to my valuables in an emergency situation (think fire, intrusion), so I ordered a Cannon with a keypad. It takes maybe all of 5 seconds to open it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2003 7:40:39 PM EDT
I went with the dial, but can recommend the keypad. I had to go with the dial because if my safe is in an unheated area, or I loose heat (in the winter), keypads (as in the display and plastic membrane type buttons) fail and break (but it get's to -50deg F here or worse!). LCD displays crap out, and other digital displays don't work when the batteries freeze. But that is an extreme condition you are not facing. Some of my safes have the S&G combo, with a keylock feature that allows you to lock it with a key if you are going in and out of it, though you lock it with the dial when you are through. S&G locks are very good, used in government security containers. They need a little more training to use than a regular combo, but I am used to S&G combo dial cause I have to access COMSEC material often in my line of government work. We have changed out our mechanical S&G's for Maas-Hamilton X-07 electronic dials. I have seen the video showing how intrusion safe these units are and it is phenomenal what methods they can defeat. BTW, they are self powered, no battery required. Bottom line: for the average Joe, get the keypad, they are much more convienient and I believe any decent model is quite secure. If you want a SHTF setup, get a mechanical dial. Compromise: get the mechanical dial with quick entry key lock, or mechanical keypad. P.S. Don't forget to hide/disguise your safe if possible, thieves can't steal what they don't know is there. If you can't, get the heaviest safe you can, then bolt that muther down, preferably in a basement so they can't attach cables and rip it right out through the side of your house.
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 6:59:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2003 7:02:25 PM EDT by LenS]
I've had a small safe for many years (it was bought used and is probably 50+ years old) and one day the S&G combo lock died. Neither my Wife nor I could reliably open it (it was worn out)! I called a safe company (who is at all the local gun shows) and bought a "take off" new lock from them (they've been selling lots of S&G keypad locks and swapping them for the dial locks). The one I bought was gold-tone with the key. I find it to be a bitch to open, since the light's glare on the gold-tone makes it difficult not to miss a number. [A brushed/dull finish wouldn't have this problem, but that's all that they had at the time for the "take off" price (~50% of list price).] More recently I bought a larger safe with the S&G keypad. Love it! Created different combos for myself and my Wife (if the numbers someday may look "used", good bet most/all the numbers will look "used"!). Very easy to get the combo correct on the first try. I used S&G for many years, first in gov't security-related jobs and later for labs and storerooms (those were pushbuttons though) that I ran at the late DEC.
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 7:07:43 PM EDT
or you could buy both like I have. Pistols in the key pad, rifles in the dial. If you want fast access, go with the key pad. Joe
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 10:51:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Mine has a 6 digit combination. 0-9 available to choose from. That's 1,000,000 possible combinations. Assuming I don't use the same number twice, I've shown wear on 6 digits. That's still 46656 possible combinations
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With 10 digits you actually have 3,628,800 permutations, but with six digits the number of permutations is only 720. Still, hard to imagine anyone working out one of 720 orders in any reasonable time.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 1:21:00 AM EDT
If it's hot enough to mess up a keypad its likely hot enough to mess up an S&G dial. The higher end S&G dials have a few bismuth parts in them that are designed to melt and disable the lock if somebody tries to torch the dial off.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:42:22 AM EDT
I have added a poll to keep track of everyones responses.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:00:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By armd_recce: With 10 digits you actually have 3,628,800 permutations, but with six digits the number of permutations is only 720. Still, hard to imagine anyone working out one of 720 orders in any reasonable time.
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10 digits in base 10 yields 10^10 combinations = 10,000,000,000 combinations 6 digits yields 10^6, or 1,000,000 combinations.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:25:54 AM EDT
keypad is faster Can you name anything thats not better faster? cars, women, beer, rate of fire all are better when they come faster
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:34:24 AM EDT
On the keypad models I have seen, they come with two large complex skeleton keys, which can be used if the keypad fails-- just don't lock them in the same safe. But where do you put them???
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:47:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 9:48:30 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama:
Originally Posted By armd_recce: 6 digits yields 10^6, or 1,000,000 combinations.
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This is wrong. If I have worn out 6 digits on a 10 digit keypad, each of my digits in my 6 digit combination has only 6 choices, not 10. Let's say my combination is 2-4-6-7-1-3 Normal choices - 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 Worn pad choices - 1,2,3,4,6,7 So, we have 6 choices for each of 6 numbers - 6x6x6x6x6x6= 46656 permutations with an unworn keypad, [b]not repeating any number[b/], a 6 digit combination would have 10 choices for each number, so 10x10x10x10x10x10= 1,000,000 choices
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:49:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By armd_recce: With 10 digits you actually have 3,628,800 permutations, but with six digits the number of permutations is only 720. Still, hard to imagine anyone working out one of 720 orders in any reasonable time.
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Ah, but I said [b]without repeating any digit[/b], hence the lower number of choices. See my previous post.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 10:00:01 AM EDT
just keep your master combo hidden well, and change your combo frequently.... thus the buttons wear evenly.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 11:21:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: ...with an unworn keypad, [b]not repeating any number[b/], a 6 digit combination would have 10 choices for each number, so 10x10x10x10x10x10= 1,000,000 choices
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Your value applies to possible repeat usage of digits. Using a 10-digit keypad & never repeating any number, the # of possible combinations should be: 10*9*8*7*6*5 = 151,200 *********** I'm intrigued by the self-charging pads/digital dials. Which safe company offers these as a std or option? A few years back, I saw a safe featured on "American Shooter" that had a digital, self-charging dial, but can't recal the mfg, & haven't been able to locate them online. Who offers this feature?
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 11:44:05 AM EDT
couldn't one easily tap into the keypad and place a code-grabber or code-sequencer on the unit? seems relatively easy-- electronic parts are easy and cheap to get. i.e. Use a simple counter for sequencing...
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 12:07:01 PM EDT
what about having a way out of your safe in case you are ever put inside it by some bad guy who has overcome you and put you inside your own safe? sorry, i am having one of those really bad paranoid days. probably never happen anyway, i hope.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:35:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 5:36:57 PM EDT by armd_recce]
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: ...with an unworn keypad, [b]not repeating any number[b/], a 6 digit combination would have 10 choices for each number, so 10x10x10x10x10x10= 1,000,000 choices
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Your value applies to possible repeat usage of digits. Using a 10-digit keypad & never repeating any number, the # of possible combinations should be: 10*9*8*7*6*5 = 151,200
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Whoops, Master Blaster nails the right answer... It is calculated as a permutation not combination, but as 10!/(10 - 6) since you are only using a 6 digit combo... My answer neglected to keep that fact in mind! It would be correct for a 10 digit combo without repeating any digits. 10 to the power of 6 would be right if you were using a 10 digit combination and could repeat digits (eg there's always 10 choices for the next number in the combination). The number of possibilities for the "worn numbers" scenario is still 720 though... Calculated as 6!, which is 6x5x4x3x2x1, since we aren't repeating any numbers. The possibilities for the next number decrease as we choose the combination.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 6:00:48 PM EDT
Not to rain on our statisticians parade, but the S&G keypad locks that we're talking about are built so that you can reuse each number as many times as you'd like! Thus, you really do have the maximum combinations (whatever that is).
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 6:33:03 PM EDT
good luck getting to your guns after an EMP keypad guys! [:p]
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 7:58:31 PM EDT
Although the doomsayers are having fun planning all the scenarios, I'd expect that an EMP event in a burb like mine is as likely to occur as a visit from little green men! I didn't buy my safe to protect me from TEOTWAIKI, just to protect me from any enterprising thugs that might want to rob my house. It serves the purpose for which it was purchased. Nothing will protect you from everything. What if your safe gets pushed over onto the lock mechanism? It might be damaged or if it is a big enough safe it might be impossible to turn so that you can open the door. What if, what if??
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:53:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gary_631: Worked for a safe store for 2 years now. the Keypads acount for about 2% of our sales. And they acount for about 98% of our problems. Doesn't matter what type of lock from the Cheep LG to the $1500 one on the new GSA safes. They all have problems. S&G said they have fix all the bugs on the new ones coming out now, but they said the same thing 2 years ago, and we are replacing them with dails now. Just my .02
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Quoted to insure you got this part...[;)] I have a dial! Any Electronic anything can fail for a number of reasons, mechanical makes it much more reliable. I dont need if's on my gunsafe!
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