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Posted: 9/30/2004 1:01:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 5:35:12 AM EST by pulpsmack]
If you want something done right ...

I would have done it myself, but the thing is that I have been absolutely swamped lately, so I had no time to replace the postban barrel out of my Bushmaster and replace it with my newly ordered government profile. I don't have a barrel wrench either so my choice was to buy the wrench, wait for it's arrival and then take time to rebarrel the AR OR find a reasonably priced gunsmith and have them do it immediately. My first call estimated the rebarrel at $65. I lost track of who that was and while backtracking through the yellow pages I talked to a gunsmith at a range here in OH. it went down like this:

ME: I am not sure if I called here before, I wanted to rebarrel my AR with a pre-ban barrel now that the AWB sunsetted.

HIM: uh.... Forty bucks.

ME: FORTY BUCKS?

HIM: Yeah, fourty bucks.

ME: OK... I might want to put a tetachable front sight with a gas block on it, if I do how much would that be?

HIM: uh..... Eighty Bucks.

ME: So, Forty for the rebarrel, and another forty for the new sight installation?

Him Yeah.

I dropped off the rifle and the new barrel (since he wasn't in). I marked on the service tag "re-barrel" (I opted out of the front site replacement and didn't bring that in) . I pick the rifle up today (He left a half hour before my arrival). The invoice: $92 and change. I won't pay that, so they have the rifle and there is nothng I can do until that bastard gets in. The jackass at the counter suggested that the gunsmith always quotes labor (bullshit). So I'll leave off on this until tomorrow...


BUT here's where YOU come in

I grabbed the box with my postban barrel on my way out. and examining it I'm amazed. The pins on the front site are knocked halfway out and there are big marks all over the gas block (from what looks like a hammer missing the mark as he knocked the pins out. ALSO there are all kinds of scratches travelling lengthwise down the barrel from God only knows what. They seem to be on the left hand side only IIRC, and they are "under the handguards". DOES ANYBODY HAVE A CLUE WHAT THE HELL HE WAS UP TO? Edit: I also noticed through the holes in the handguard that the gas tube was copper colored. My factory tube had a black coating on it, so I KNOW he replaced the gas tube (likely because HE broke it and plans on sticking me with the replacement cost). #1 I'm beginning to wonder if he has a barrel wrench for an AR-15 in the first place, and #2, I am terrified to know what the hell's going on under the handguards with my brand new barrel!!!

Any thoughts on this? Would/Could a stupid or stubborn gunsmith rebarrel an AR without the proper wrench?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:06:10 PM EST
My guess is he had trouble removing the gas tube, thus the attemp t remove the gas block and the scratches on the barrel.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:09:03 PM EST
Good guess, I just put an "edit" in that I forgot to add, which sheds some light on that
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:09:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 1:10:18 PM EST by SGB]
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:14:38 PM EST
Dude, I think you demand a complete listing of the work that was done.
Then go over each item with him, before you pay anytihng. Tell him
where you got your new barrel and make him replace it.

Make sure you tell him, you'll post the name of his business and his customer
service record on ar15.com and whatever other gun forums you can.

Bastard should replace the whole fu&*ing gun. What a rookie!
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:16:02 PM EST
Boy, that sucks that jackass worked your rifle over like that.

I'm sure you could easily swap barrels without a barrel wrench.

1. Pry the handguards off with the biggest screwdriver ya got.
2. Hacksaw the gas tube off at both ends. Just leave enough that you can slip some of that thin copper over it and hose-clamp it on.
3. Drill a couple holes through the barrel and wood-screw it to the workbench.
4. Crank the barrel nut off with a pair of channel-locks. You gotta really hang onto it to flatten out those little nubs enough to get a real good grip.
5. Geez, I don't know how you get that front sight thing off there. I guess you just gotta get a big'ol hammer and whale on it good.

Reverse the procedure to re-assemble. Use duct tape to hold the handguards on.

Does he have your whole rifle, or just the upper? Seems to me he owes you a bunch of new parts and some free labor. Be sure you let everyone here know who that dumbass is, there's no reason to call yourself a "gunsmith" if that's you take care of folks' shootin' irons.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:19:05 PM EST


Should have bought the wrench.

<­BR>
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:20:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:
It's been my experience that most so called Gunsmiths simply AREN'Thr


Hear, hear, brother. That's why I work on my guns, car, motorcycle, and bicycles my damn self. It seems most times you pay somebody to get something done, it ends up all kinds of half-assed. I'd even do my own damn surgery, if I could. At least you'd only have yourself to blame for your problems!
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:28:05 PM EST
In hindsight, yeah you should have bought the wrench and did it yourself so lets move on past that. What's another $12? Yes I understand its the principles of the matter and I don't think that there is anyone here who is going to dipute that. So lets move on from there as well. Get your rifle back, tell them they do shitty work and pass the word around. The main thing is get your rifle back before that hack behind the counter decided to take it upon himself to see, "wutz so durn spacial bout dis things anyways"
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:28:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:30:09 PM EST
let us know how this goes- i'm sure you will

hopefully he doesn't need to much to convince him to give up whatever his argument is. I sure hope you don't have to waste too much time with him.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:34:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:55:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:
It's been my experience that most so called Gunsmiths simply AREN'T



There are gunsmiths and there are ARsmiths. Very rarely do you see a local gunsmith with a storefront who is proficient on ARs, at least that is my experience. Sorry to hear about your poor results.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:17:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By SGB:
It's been my experience that most so called Gunsmiths simply AREN'T



There are gunsmiths and there are ARsmiths. Very rarely do you see a local gunsmith with a storefront who is proficient on ARs, at least that is my experience. Sorry to hear about your poor results.




+1
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:22:57 PM EST
You should have sent it to ADCO.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:59:52 PM EST
Care to share the name and/or location of this shop?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 3:00:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:


My guess in the barrel scratches is he may have used an aluminum barrel vice, instead of a action block . . .just a guess

Oh shit yeah ask and see if they even have an action block, I bet when you ask to see the "barrel vice" you'll find out what happened.


+2
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 3:18:10 PM EST
$92.00 for a barrel and front sight swap!!! I met a guy at the range last week and did the same thing to his rifle also installed a free float tube for him and all I charged was that he drop off a 6 pack sometime. Wow! Although I have all the proper tools.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 6:51:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:
It's been my experience that most so called Gunsmiths simply AREN'Thr



Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
Most gun store gunsmiths are good at mounting scopes, bore sighting etc.
The AR15 is a different animal, so to speak.

My guess in the barrel scratches is he may have used an aluminum barrel vice, instead of a action block . . .just a guess



I am lucky to have a great relationship with some truly excellent and well respected gunsmiths and have over the years seen a large number of both pistols and long guns that they had received in order to repair the butchery performed on them by gun store and range GUN PLUMBERS. When you do find a good gunsmith that you trust you will find that the cost of doing something as minor as replacing an AR barrel, while knowing that you are fully capable of doing the job yourself, is worth whatever he might charge when you have the piece of mind knowing that it will be done to your expectations. Good Luck!
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 7:00:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 7:11:42 PM EST
I bought a vise, action block, barrel jaws, barrel wrench and punch pin set and swapped out my barrel in less than 25 minutes.

The tools cost me about $100 altogether.....What were you thinking. I don't know ANY local gunsmiths I would trust with my AR. none. zip. nada.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 7:13:56 PM EST
Document the conversation although that woun't do you much good because it's your word against his. Pay the man and get a written receipt. Take detailed pictures of the damage of your rifle. Get documentation on the replacement cost for ORIGINAL parts. Get others who can attest to the condition your gun was in prior to the "repairs". Sue his pants off!

I feel for you and I don't know if Pissed would describe how I would be if I ran into the same thing.

Good luck buddy!

Brian
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 7:21:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By shortcycle:

Originally Posted By SGB:
It's been my experience that most so called Gunsmiths simply AREN'T



Hear, hear, brother. That's why I work on my guns, car, motorcycle, and bicycles my damn self. It seems most times you pay somebody to get something done, it ends up all kinds of half-assed. I'd even do my own damn surgery, if I could. At least you'd only have yourself to blame for your problems!



+1 Here Here . Well said, but I dont agree on the surgury part
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:01:27 PM EST
I feel you man. Thats why I'm buying some AR tools just to have in case you need to do surgery on it.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:02:48 PM EST
Wow holy crap. I'm just some jackhole and I could have done a better job in about 10 minutes! Dang, I should go around charging people 90 bucks to change barrels.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:13:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4RRA-plinker:
You should have sent it to ADCO.



I second this...steve will do anything at the worlds most reasonable price. I got my barrel swapped for...I think $10...+1 for Steve.

Matt Carper
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 8:16:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By onrope1971:
$92.00 for a barrel and front sight swap!!! I met a guy at the range last week and did the same thing to his rifle also installed a free float tube for him and all I charged was that he drop off a 6 pack sometime. Wow! Although I have all the proper tools.



If beer were dollars, I'd have used all the money I would have gotten from helping people out to buy beer. Seriously, though, I've went this route several times and taught/instructed people how to work on their own firearms, especially after some poorly trained garage-based hack wrenched on their rifle.

Jeremy
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:14:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 6:16:09 AM EST by pulpsmack]
UPDATE

9:00 am I call to make sure he's there

HIM: Gunsmith!!! (he actually answers his extension that way)

ME: I came in for the AR-15 yesterday... it seems there was a discrepancy in the price

HIM: Well it was forty for the rebarrel... and then the remainder was for the other services

ME: What Services?! Your "services" amount to over 100% of what you quoted me

HIM: The rifle was very dirty. I had to spend alot of time cleaning it. ( )

ME: Look, you quoted me forty dollars for the job, an-

HIM: - That was forty dollars for a clean rifle. I had to-

Me: -You quoted me forty dollars!!! you didn't specify clean, dirty, or otherwise. Once you took apart the rifle and saw it was such the mess you claimed it was, you could have told me that I could either clean it and return it to you for the job, or you would clean it for me at an additional cost. I left my number on the service tag so you could have called me. but you didn't.

HIM: Alright... you know what? 's forty dollars! Come get the goddamned thing!!!


It was actually $49 with tax and $6 worth of "test shots" he charged me for.

So here is the breakdown as follows:

Costs:

$50 cash
120 miles and gas for 3 round trips

Postban barrel:
- dings on the gas block
- front sight pins left halfway off
- Horrendous scratch on the barrel under the handguards

Rifle (with preban replacement barrel):

- Nasty scratch across the forward assist well
- Finish wear on two sides of the upper (left side) that coincide with the foward assist scratch on the right (Vice jaws???)
- finish wear on the barrel behind the FS (perhaps normal for installation, perhaps avoidable if he gave a damn)
- finish marks on the front sight


"Gains"

One barrel installation job
One hard-learned lesson that local gunsmiths have no business around my AR-15s (along with many other weapons)

Now what the hell is that pen called that conceals marks on the finish & is it good for the barrel as well as the aluminum, or just the aluminum? And where is it sold, because it seems I need 2 of them now?
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:29:26 AM EST
Wow. Just Wow.
I'm sorry you had to go through that.
But, I think you came out as good as you could expect, with that dumbass.
Next time, do it yourself. We will walk you through it.
For $40 you could have bought a receiver vice block form Bushmaster.
And another $25 would have gotten you a barrel wrench.
Hope your gun shoots great, though.
At least you'll have that...
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:35:15 AM EST


Was this in LA or OH??


Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:35:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 6:36:53 AM EST by SkiandShoot]

Originally Posted By shortcycle:
Boy, that sucks that jackass worked your rifle over like that.

I'm sure you could easily swap barrels without a barrel wrench.

1. Here hold my beer for a minute..
2. Pry the handguards off with the biggest screwdriver ya got.
3. Hacksaw the gas tube off at both ends. Just leave enough that you can slip some of that thin copper over it and hose-clamp it on.
4. Drill a couple holes through the barrel and wood-screw it to the workbench.
5. Crank the barrel nut off with a pair of channel-locks. You gotta really hang onto it to flatten out those little nubs enough to get a real good grip.
6. Geez, I don't know how you get that front sight thing off there. I guess you just gotta get a big'ol hammer and whale on it good.

Reverse the procedure to re-assemble. Use duct tape to hold the handguards on.

.




Updated the proper order...
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:43:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:


Now what the hell is that pen called that conceals marks on the finish & is it good for the barrel as well as the aluminum, or just the aluminum? And where is it sold, because it seems I need 2 of them now?



Check Brwonells, they have an aluminum oxidizer for touching up scratches, it works well.

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:13:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:20:49 AM EST
Yu need to post his name and business infomration so people will stay the hell away from him.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:35:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 8:43:00 AM EST by El_Roto]

Originally Posted By ian187:

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:


Now what the hell is that pen called that conceals marks on the finish & is it good for the barrel as well as the aluminum, or just the aluminum? And where is it sold, because it seems I need 2 of them now?



Check Brwonells, they have an aluminum oxidizer for touching up scratches, it works well.




Here you go: www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=4941&title=ALUMINUM+BLACK

also check out this link, at the top is a touch-up pen that's good for quickly covering scratches in the field: www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=4942&title=METAL+FINISHING+PRODUCTS
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:44:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:
Now what the hell is that pen called that conceals marks on the finish & is it good for the barrel as well as the aluminum, or just the aluminum? And where is it sold, because it seems I need 2 of them now?



Birchwood Casey Aluminum Black for the aluminum

Birchwood Casey Perma Blue for the steel (buy the paste type it seems to work with less applications)

Most gun stores sell the stuff, no need to pay for shipping from Brownells. On second thought do order from Brownells and order all the tools you need.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:52:54 AM EST
So whats this jackasses name so we can give him some bad PR???
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:03:04 AM EST
The money invested in getting these parts: Action block, Barrel wrench, Go/no go gauges is WELL WORTH ANY PRICE YOU WILL PAY OVER THE COST OF HAVING SOMEBODY ELSE DO IT.


Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:20:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:51:36 AM EST
Sorry to hear of your trouble with the gun plumber.

One word of advice--ADCO--these guys are professional AR-15 gunsmiths/machinists who work on these fine rifles day in and day out.

Don't trust your AR-15 work to just any gunsmith. The same as taking a Porsche to a Chevy dealer for repairs, you just don't do it!
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:57:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:08:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By black_heart:
Document the conversation although that woun't do you much good because it's your word against his. Pay the man and get a written receipt. Take detailed pictures of the damage of your rifle. Get documentation on the replacement cost for ORIGINAL parts. Get others who can attest to the condition your gun was in prior to the "repairs". Sue his pants off!

I feel for you and I don't know if Pissed would describe how I would be if I ran into the same thing.

Good luck buddy!

Brian



Slip a running tape recorder in your pocket, that'd do the trick.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:50:52 AM EST
You should have paid with a Visa or Mastercard then contacted the credit card company & disputed the charge! There are craftsmen who repair guns who cringe at what happened to you & would have written up the hacks work & an estimate to fix his "gunsmithing"
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 12:42:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 10:16:25 AM EST by _DR]
Make sure....

1. Ensure that the barrel lug nut is actually tight by grasping the upper receiver while separated from the lower with one hand, and the front sight base with the other, and wiggle forcefully. There should be ZERO movement.

2. Ensure the gas tube is not under tension to the left or right by the barrel nut teeth - if it does not protrude straight into the upper it may mean the barrel nut is not aligned so as to allow the gas tube to pass through unrestricted. Could cause wear on the gas tube, malfunction or damage if the gas tube is way left or right.

3. It would be nice to know if he used moly grease when installing the barrel (though he probably didn't there was probably a bit left over from the original barrel installation).

4. eyeball the barrel with the handguards off and makes sure it looks straight while sighting down the barrel.

5. Ensure he actually inserted to roll pin that secures the gas tube in the opening in the front sight base - if he lost the original pin he may not have inserted a new one when replacing the gas tube on the new barrel assembly. If not in place could allow the gas tube to dislodge from the FSB when shooting.

Assume nothing, check everything before firing



this guys sounds like a real character to avoid...let us know what shop it is.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 1:05:56 PM EST
!. Here, hold my beer.

Thanks, SkiandShoot. I can't believe I missed that part. *burp*
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 1:09:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 1:12:10 PM EST by pulpsmack]
Thanks for all the support and advice, guys.

I'll do what I can with your advice and admonitions. As for the establishment, it is Stonewall's Gun & Range in Cleveland (Brecksville) OH. I can't exactly say much negative about the establishment other than one counterperson is a jackass. All I can tell you is that the so-called "gunsmith" is an unprofessional butcher that was lucky enough to have the good sense to cut what he perceived to be "his losses".

There really is the temptation to fuck this guy (i.e. complaint to the BBB, dispute payment, small claims for the Post ban barrel & receiver marks) but he wisely gave in enough to cool my anger to a steady simmer. When I go to war I go to fucking war, and given the stale concessions and my limited schedule at the moment, it's not worth me flying off the handle. Had he tried to push the $92 service tag, I'd have a totally different outlook on the situation.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 10:04:24 AM EST
i'd take pictures of the damaged areas and send them to ADCO and a few other 'smiths found on AR15.com. I'd ask them to send me a written quote on refinished/fixing/checking for safety and I would go to him with the three estimates and tell him flat-out "I paid what you and I agreed on over the phone (or in person, now you ARE going to do what you have to do to fix every mistake and scratch that was not part of the agreement!" Tell him he'll have to undo all of the 'custom' work he did. He did not need a squeaky clean rifle in order to change barrels, etc. You have those three estimates to show him so he knows where to send the rifle or who to contact for payment if you send it in. I don't know how much time or money it would take to "persuade" him to follow through, but if this got to a judge, that guy would be paying you $$$ for what he did. I've seen judges (TV and in person) that absolutely abhor people who work on something whether it be a car, computer, etc. that damage other parts or do anything harmful or inappropriate to your property. It's property damage, plain and simple. He is a business and you paid him. Had you given an AR15.com'er a six pack and he accidentally made a mark, you'd deal with it. But since you paid this guy and he owns a business, he can't get away with this.

Do you have any lawyer friends? Maybe someone here had this problem before and has had to search for information that could convince him without trouble?
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 10:20:19 AM EST
Oh..I forgot to say...

You brought a dirty rifle in for work? Shame on you!
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 4:54:03 PM EST
Sorry to hear that.
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