IR lasers: illegal, immoral, or jusy unobtainable?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - IR lasers: illegal, immoral, or jusy unobtainable?

Posted: 9/1/2005 8:47:37 PM EDT

New to this topic, please be gentle!

So, can IR lasers be had?

Posted: 9/1/2005 8:56:41 PM EDT

[#1]

Pics...

IR lasers are legal for civies to buy and own. You can't buy them from a manufacturer or a dealer. Other than that, you're clear. Because of this, they are scarce. Most of them show up on ebay, EE and other internet sources.

By the way, they're not cheap.

Posted: 9/2/2005 3:28:14 PM EDT

[#2]

Can you elaborate, please? I have been wondering the same. Why can't I buy a laser from a mfg or dealer? Is there a federal law? Is it self-regulation by the industry? I have noticed that IR lasers, in particular, seem impossible to find - that manufacturers just say they are not available to civies.

Posted: 9/2/2005 3:35:19 PM EDT

[#3]

The FDA regulates them, as they ar dangerous to eyes. So it is illegal under federal law for a dealer or manufacturer to sell them, except to labs, military and LE. You can buy one that was surplused from an authorized buyer, for several thousand. Or a cheap imported russian unit for several hundred.

Posted: 9/2/2005 7:43:10 PM EDT

[#4]

Thanks for the info. I see I must dig deeper to get the scoop on all this night vision topic.

Posted: 9/2/2005 8:30:27 PM EDT

[#5]

Go here for your IR lasers. It's where I got my IWAL.

Posted: 9/2/2005 8:53:34 PM EDT

[#6]

.

Posted: 9/2/2005 9:12:35 PM EDT

[#7]

OK, after some cursory browsing, here's what I see:

Conventional night vision scopes are not suitable for the AR.

Far better would be Night Vision Goggles, combined with an IR laser or illuminator.

NV goggles can be had. IR illuminators are rare but available. But, IR lasers are hard to come by.

So, would an IR illuminator combined with an IR laser be viable, or would the laser "wash out"?

Or, would an IR illuminator with a visible laser also work? More provocative yes, but would the target, at ranges of say 30-100 meters, be able to trace the laser back to its source in the confusion of a shootout? Wouldn't the muzzle flash give you away anyway?

My use scenario: SHTF, opponent prolly does not have night vision.

Posted: 9/3/2005 5:58:20 AM EDT

[#8]

Maybe I'm a little cantankerous this morning, but I think you need to do a little more than a cursory reading.

Conventional night vision scopes are not suitable for the AR. Actually PVS14 and other milspec types are fully suitable for the AR, whether mounted on the rifle, or worn.

Far better would be Night Vision Goggles, combined with an IR laser or illuminator. Obviously NV is" better" with an IR laser. Are googles better than a single tube? Not necessarily, and in many circumstances not.

NV goggles can be had. IR illuminators are rare but available. But, IR lasers are hard to come by. IR illuminators are available from numerous vendors here. I'm aware of three very common IR illuminators, made by SureFire, Pentagon, and Vic's light, among others. NV is easy to buy, you just have to spend your money. IR lasers, can be found, but are restricted to sale to .gov type entities.

So, would an IR illuminator combined with an IR laser be viable, or would the laser "wash out"? Perhaps.

Or, would an IR illuminator with a visible laser also work? More provocative yes, but would the target, at ranges of say 30-100 meters, be able to trace the laser back to its source in the confusion of a shootout? Wouldn't the muzzle flash give you away anyway?

Posted: 9/3/2005 6:14:50 AM EDT

[#9]

Here is something that some of you guys might not have thought of. Since a good portion of the shooting community uses public or private ranges, where are you going to zero your laser at (as you need to do it at night when most ranges are closed)???

C4

Posted: 9/3/2005 6:17:28 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
So, would an IR illuminator combined with an IR laser be viable, or would the laser "wash out"?

It doesn't wash it out...it actually negates the "Bloom" that you'll get from an IR/visible laser, by itself. Bloom is a concentric halo that surrounds any bright pinpoint (like street light, car headlight, etc.) Having supplemental Illumination (like Vic's IR Illuminator) is a good thing.
That's why the military combined the two...the PEQ-2 is just such a critter. The combination of IR Illumination/Laser is awesome for identifying targets in treelines, or shadowy architecture.

Or, would an IR illuminator with a visible laser also work? More provocative yes, but would the target, at ranges of say 30-100 meters, be able to trace the laser back to its source in the confusion of a shootout?

It would work...but would give away your position..not necessarily with a beam, but your unit will be a beacon to the target as you get the dot near it. I would suggest a weapon-mounted PVS, with an Aimpoint or Eotech sight in front of it. (that way...you can't be "seen", even if they have NVGs)

Wouldn't the muzzle flash give you away anyway?

Big time.
A sound suppressor will also remove most of your flash. A proper concealed-position, PVS-14, PAQ-4 and a QD sound suppressor (Like a M4-2000 or an M4-96D). Sounds optimum for what you want to achieve..

Posted: 9/3/2005 6:19:08 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Here is something that some of you guys might not have thought of. Since a good portion of the shooting community uses public or private ranges, where are you going to zero your laser at (as you need to do it at night when most ranges are closed)???

C4

You need a good freind with land in the country

...or, range-zero an Eotech and then line-up the dots.

Posted: 9/3/2005 6:20:18 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Here is something that some of you guys might not have thought of. Since a good portion of the shooting community uses public or private ranges, where are you going to zero your laser at (as you need to do it at night when most ranges are closed)???

C4

You need a good freind with land in the country

...or, range-zero an Eotech and then line-up the dots.

This is true. I ahve such options available to me, but not everyone does.

C4

Posted: 9/3/2005 7:32:23 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
OK, after some cursory browsing, here's what I see:

Conventional night vision scopes are not suitable for the AR.

Far better would be Night Vision Goggles, combined with an IR laser or illuminator.

NV goggles can be had. IR illuminators are rare but available. But, IR lasers are hard to come by.

So, would an IR illuminator combined with an IR laser be viable, or would the laser "wash out"?

Or, would an IR illuminator with a visible laser also work? More provocative yes, but would the target, at ranges of say 30-100 meters, be able to trace the laser back to its source in the confusion of a shootout? Wouldn't the muzzle flash give you away anyway?

My use scenario: SHTF, opponent prolly does not have night vision.

With the exception of PVS14s (which can be used as goggles or mounted to your weapon), I'd rather have a NV scope than NVGs... After a few hours, those goggles hanging in front of your head get rather uncomfortable (PVS7Bs, anyway) - and that's wearing them attached to a helmet (which you probably wouldn't be... The 7B head-mount has aquired the nickname 'skull crusher' for a reason)...

Posted: 9/3/2005 7:36:07 AM EDT

[#14]

Posted: 9/3/2005 11:24:12 AM EDT

[#15]

I think the concern over someone seeing your laser is moot since if you are in a group shootig at people and you using NV optics the glint tape and IR strobes you are wearing is going to give you away anyway. And in my admittedly limited experience dual tube NV goggles offer a vstly improved abilty to maintain at least some depth perception and helps clarify images. People are obsessed and the military uses monoculars due to cost reasons not performance reasons IMO.

Posted: 9/3/2005 11:37:07 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Here is something that some of you guys might not have thought of. Since a good portion of the shooting community uses public or private ranges, where are you going to zero your laser at (as you need to do it at night when most ranges are closed)???

C4

Hi Grant, (good post to all btw)

I am fortunate to belong to a few "private ranges". One is 200M yards, while the other is 510M. ALL open at night to me with keys and locked gates!

I zero at 300 and bang steel all night long at the 510 burm with my MSTN built 6.8 SPC outfitted with either a 6X Raptor, D-760 and IR (illum.) stuff. With my 6'xers, I usually do not employ lasers except for a high power illuminator during no moon/overcast skies. For 300M and in work, my head is held high (well not too high, <GULP>) with my helmet mounted 14's and it's all point and shoot time with ONLY a laser and my M4. You would think the private ranges would let night shooting commence. Both ranges I belong to, have no problem letting folk do this. The ONLY problem I have is the rare folks who do come in at night sometimes use their car lights for illumination.

Usually a sneak peek through my optics puts them in a pretty good mood to down their headlights for me!

Posted: 9/3/2005 11:52:19 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
With the exception of PVS14s (which can be used as goggles or mounted to your weapon), I'd rather have a NV scope than NVGs... After a few hours, those goggles hanging in front of your head get rather uncomfortable (PVS7Bs, anyway) - and that's wearing them attached to a helmet (which you probably wouldn't be... The 7B head-mount has aquired the nickname 'skull crusher' for a reason)...

the only place for a fixed NFG on a weapon is on Crew Served Weapons. Doing passage of Lines or Partisan Link Ups where you have to raise your weapon everytime you want to use your NVG's is going to get people killed.....................................................

Posted: 9/3/2005 12:00:57 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Or, would an IR illuminator with a visible laser also work? More provocative yes, but would the target, at ranges of say 30-100 meters, be able to trace the laser back to its source in the confusion of a shootout? Wouldn't the muzzle flash give you away anyway?

My use scenario: SHTF, opponent prolly does not have night vision.

In the area of the muzzle flash, I've done alot of experimentation over the last year with NVD's. I'm going to post up in the dedicated NV forumn (thread) the best flash hider I have used, BUT with some draw backs, that ALL even a "can" can't supress!

This not the correct thread, but a good one no less.

In the area of ones opponent seeing your beam...Most high end IR lasers have an off-axis light security where you opponent cannot see the thin beam unless they are within 5 or 6 deg cone of your muzlzle. The Vitals, and PAQ's have this. I think a few others have this feature as well.

Posted: 9/3/2005 6:51:45 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

the only place for a fixed NFG on a weapon is on Crew Served Weapons. Doing passage of Lines or Partisan Link Ups where you have to raise your weapon everytime you want to use your NVG's is going to get people killed.....................................................

You beat me to it.

Nothing superior about having to point your weapon at everything you wish to look at in the dark.

Also, there are other ways to zero your IR laser:

Put rifle in a vice, or secured so it will not move. Move target until the bulls eye is precisely at the point of aim. Turn lights out, turn NVG and IR laser on. Adjust laser to 'modified' point of aim, taking care to compensate for distance laser is off axis.

The military has special targets for this, showing point of aim for various mounting location of lasers.

~Doug

Posted: 9/3/2005 7:09:59 PM EDT

[#20]

.

Posted: 9/3/2005 8:22:05 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Go here for your IR lasers. It's where I got my IWAL.

I'm going to ask a stupid question here, but since I've never used my rails for anything other than the vert grip before I'm still gonna go ahead and do it.

I see on the picture it's mounted to the top rail. Since I have a regular front site post there I couldn't go with that. One big reason I've been thinking about either getting the OTAL and trying to change the lasermakingthinggymadoodle.

Now would I were to mount it to one of the rails on the side would it have enough adjustment to get cenererd in? I've seen pictures of people's guns before where they have some kind of little angled piece on the rail to put lasers on. I alwasy assmumed that was because there wasn't enough adjustment.

Could you mouht something like that one the side just on the rail itself?

Posted: 9/3/2005 9:47:19 PM EDT

[#22]

IWAL

Has someone done a review of this gadget?
Ha! Fooled you! That wasn't a hot link!

[homer]hmmm....hot links...ugggh[/homer]

Posted: 9/4/2005 12:40:05 AM EDT

[#23]

Okay I'll admit it.. I kept trying ti click it

Posted: 9/4/2005 3:36:17 AM EDT

[#24]

Could you put an IR filter over a visible laser?

What is involved with replacing the visible parts of an OTAL with the parts to make it IR?

Posted: 9/4/2005 6:01:17 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Could you put an IR filter over a visible laser?

What is involved with replacing the visible parts of an OTAL with the parts to make it IR?

IR Filters are very dense & will scatter the vis laser.

There are IR DBAL clones (available on eBay...compliments of China

) that might be a better choice for you. Cracking open a perfectly good OTAL is a sin.

Posted: 9/4/2005 6:28:28 AM EDT

[#26]

I purchased my IR lasers from Newcon. www.newcon-optik.com

Posted: 9/4/2005 1:04:56 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Cracking open a perfectly good OTAL is a sin.

but so is the feeling I get everytime I see Adriana Lima.. most good things in life are infact sins

Posted: 9/6/2005 4:57:20 PM EDT

[#28]

Hong kong clones will not be able to absorb the rifle recoil, they are made by STAR who makes airsoft products.

Posted: 9/6/2005 6:45:22 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Hong kong clones will not be able to absorb the rifle recoil, they are made by STAR who makes airsoft products.

I found one of those on gunbroker I almost bought. The fact that it wasn't waterprof changed that for me so now i don't have one,.

Posted: 9/8/2005 5:06:35 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Hong kong clones will not be able to absorb the rifle recoil, they are made by STAR who makes airsoft products.

I found one of those on gunbroker I almost bought. The fact that it wasn't waterprof changed that for me so now i don't have one,.

same here I cancelled my auction when I found out and I bought a OTAL instead. Better to get a regular laser thats the real deal then some rip off piece of crap.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - IR lasers: illegal, immoral, or jusy unobtainable?

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