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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:44:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 2:45:29 PM EDT by XM777]


Wonder if this is going to be availible here in the states any time soon?



qa-imi.gsites.co.il/Business/ProductsFamily/Product.aspx?FolderID=35&docID=449
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:38:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XM777:

Wonder if this is going to be availible here in the states any time soon?

qa-imi.gsites.co.il/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/6/286.jpg

qa-imi.gsites.co.il/Business/ProductsFamily/Product.aspx?FolderID=35&docID=449



I guess Black Hills can't keep up with the demand for this round... or IMI is placing itself to compete with BH for the GOV contract...

Either way, the more MK262 Mod1 that is made, the better the odds it will make its way to the civvy market...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:56:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By XM777:

Wonder if this is going to be availible here in the states any time soon?

qa-imi.gsites.co.il/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/6/286.jpg

qa-imi.gsites.co.il/Business/ProductsFamily/Product.aspx?FolderID=35&docID=449



I guess Black Hills can't keep up with the demand for this round... or IMI is placing itself to compete with BH for the GOV contract... hinking.gif



Either way, the more MK262 Mod1 that is made, the better the odds it will make its way to the civvy market...

Rmpl hr

We can only hope and pray. That would be SWEET if we if IMI sold it here!
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 4:02:53 PM EDT
Going by the spec' at the site this ammo is loaded about 100fps slower than mk262.
This is more like Balck Hills standard match grade ammo. 2750fps vs 2850fps.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 7:48:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 7:51:07 PM EDT by XM777]

Originally Posted By dynoman:
Going by the spec' at the site this ammo is loaded about 100fps slower than mk262.
This is more like Balck Hills standard match grade ammo. 2750fps vs 2850fps.



IMI's velocity spec is quoted at 24 meters (79ft), BH is typically measured at 10-15 ft. This would account for the 100fps quoted velocity difference.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 3:19:55 AM EDT
If Black Hills would release MK 262 on the commercial market, I would buy it in droves...but if they keep it .Gov only like it is now, I will support any maker that offers something similar. Right now I use 5.56 TAP and I applaud Hornady for offering it commercially.

I know the .gov is a whale of a client but it bothers me that MK262 is not being marketed outside the world of .gov procurement.


Link Posted: 4/5/2006 3:23:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FedDC:
If Black Hills would release MK 262 on the commercial market, I would buy it in droves...but if they keep it .Gov only like it is now, I will support any maker that offers something similar. Right now I use 5.56 TAP and I applaud Hornady for offering it commercially.

I know the .gov is a whale of a client but it bothers me that MK262 is not being marketed outside the world of .gov procurement.





Black Hills, remember, is not goddamn Winchester or Federal...

I doubt they have much 262 left over to sell, the military probably buys every last round...
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:47:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By FedDC:
If Black Hills would release MK 262 on the commercial market, I would buy it in droves...but if they keep it .Gov only like it is now, I will support any maker that offers something similar. Right now I use 5.56 TAP and I applaud Hornady for offering it commercially.

I know the .gov is a whale of a client but it bothers me that MK262 is not being marketed outside the world of .gov procurement.





Black Hills, remember, is not goddamn Winchester or Federal...

I doubt they have much 262 left over to sell, the military probably buys every last round...



+1
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:53:50 AM EDT
TAG! For the Group buy!
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:05:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FedDC:
If Black Hills would release MK 262 on the commercial market, I would buy it in droves...but if they keep it .Gov only like it is now, I will support any maker that offers something similar. Right now I use 5.56 TAP and I applaud Hornady for offering it commercially.

I know the .gov is a whale of a client but it bothers me that MK262 is not being marketed outside the world of .gov procurement.





Brother, where do you get your 5.56 TAP.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:15:12 AM EDT
I always wonder how Black hills could supply the Military without help?


Whats the Head stamp on the 77OTM by Black hills?
does it have a Nato cross? is the Brass anneald
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 3:18:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BRONZ:

Originally Posted By FedDC:
If Black Hills would release MK 262 on the commercial market, I would buy it in droves...but if they keep it .Gov only like it is now, I will support any maker that offers something similar. Right now I use 5.56 TAP and I applaud Hornady for offering it commercially.

I know the .gov is a whale of a client but it bothers me that MK262 is not being marketed outside the world of .gov procurement.





Brother, where do you get your 5.56 TAP.



Direct from Hornady. LE Purchase by individual officer. It ain't cheap but it is the best I can get unless 262 becomes available.

As far as capacity, I don't think that is an issue. Black Hills makes an entire line of hunting ammo as well as the 223 commercial.

I have used the real MK 262 and it is great ammo, truly first rate. They make good products and I hope that one of these days it does make it to the civi market.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:11:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 5:12:40 PM EDT by paulosantos]
I'm in the same boat. I shoot the 5.56 TAP becasue the MK 262 Mod 1 isn't available. They don't even have any of the Seconds. I called BH today and they are backordered for 6 months. Even Hornady is backordered for a couple of weeks.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:20:49 PM EDT
Hornady was BO'd last time I ordered too. I ordered 2K because of that. The thing about TAP is that it doesn't look like they seal the primers or case mouth... I don't think its crimped either. Good ammo but not as good as the MK 262.

Like I said, I am an ammo kinda guy and I looked at a ton of it when I was downrange. The 262 was by far the best I saw.

262 is the standard by which others are judged.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:41:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
I always wonder how Black hills could supply the Military without help?


Whats the Head stamp on the 77OTM by Black hills? WCC 05
does it have a Nato cross? Nope
is the Brass anneald Yup

Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:03:37 PM EDT
Since blackhills was brought up I'll add my thoughts...A company manufacturers the product which is in demand. I see a whole lot of BH ammo on the shelf but no Mk262. Which tells me that if they wanted to they could commit more sources to manufacturing more mk262 and less to other ammo which is not as sought after right now.

I called BH about 9 months ago to see if a civy could purchase some mk262 and their response was not that they don't have enough but that they do not offer it to the civy market nore do they ever plan to.

I personally don't have a need for any BH ammo unless it's MK262. It sounds like there's more people here who are opting to purchase ammo from other suppliers until BH offers MK262 to the public.

I would like to see IMI or anyone else offer MK262.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 9:06:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 9:12:02 PM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]
GROUP BUY!

If this is for real, and if it checks out near or equal to the BH Mk262, I'm going to toss a few cases in any group buy of this stuff.

If it comes in battlepacks or sealed ammo cans, that'd make it perfect.

ETA: I might actually know who to contact to arrange such a group buy from IMI... If any of the elders here want to try setting one up...
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:02:35 PM EDT
Widener's is selling new factory IMI .308 - wonder if they could get this stuff, too?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:30:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FedDC:

Originally Posted By BRONZ:

Originally Posted By FedDC:
If Black Hills would release MK 262 on the commercial market, I would buy it in droves...but if they keep it .Gov only like it is now, I will support any maker that offers something similar. Right now I use 5.56 TAP and I applaud Hornady for offering it commercially.

I know the .gov is a whale of a client but it bothers me that MK262 is not being marketed outside the world of .gov procurement.





Brother, where do you get your 5.56 TAP.



Direct from Hornady. LE Purchase by individual officer. It ain't cheap but it is the best I can get unless 262 becomes available.

As far as capacity, I don't think that is an issue. Black Hills makes an entire line of hunting ammo as well as the 223 commercial.

I have used the real MK 262 and it is great ammo, truly first rate. They make good products and I hope that one of these days it does make it to the civi market.



i was able to get some of the Hornady 5.56 tap ammo so it is possible but it is not for sale to the civi's. it is for government or LEO sales only. this is great for the LEO but sucks for the rest of us. although i am happy to have it and greatfull to those who helped me get it, it does suck to have to jump through hoops and pay a premium just to get it. at least Black Hills sells there blems to the general public when they have them. Hornady wont even do that.

i am tired of companies that restrict leagle products from civilian sale but then sell them to private officers. if this stuff is so dangerous that it cant be sold to civilians than it should only be sold to agencies and not to private officers. remember that the police are civilians too so what makes them more qualified than me to use this ammo. i guarantee i shoot more each year than most officers but Hornady does not care. most companies dont care or we would have alot more 5.56 ammo on the market.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:32:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 11:33:02 PM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Widener's is selling new factory IMI .308 - wonder if they could get this stuff, too?



Botach Tactical has a good working relationship with IMI... But they tend to cator more to LE sales. They'd still be the people to contact about this, however, if you want the best chance at actually getting it imported.



ETA: Don't leave me out if you get a group buy going!
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 1:13:14 AM EDT
Black Hills can supply the government with quantity, but at the cost of putting ALL commercial manufacturing aside...

Call Black Hills right now and ask for .223.... ANY .223. Right now they're shipping Factory Seconds... Regular production isn't scheduled for MONTHS.

Link Posted: 4/6/2006 5:15:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By michealj:

Originally Posted By FMJ:
I always wonder how Black hills could supply the Military without help?


Whats the Head stamp on the 77OTM by Black hills? WCC 05
does it have a Nato cross? Nope
is the Brass anneald Yup





Thank You very much! I have never seen the round itself

I have some Blue Box Black Hills 77gr The brass HEAD STAMP IS

05 with Nato cross ONLY??

Thats wierd I think?

Because my Black Hills Blue Box 75gr is mixed LC/Win brass
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 10:34:05 PM EDT
Bump to see if anyone else wants a group buy.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 7:15:10 AM EDT
Head stamp 05 and Nato Cross ONLY? ( My Blue Box Black Hills 77gr. )
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 7:29:12 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 7:57:46 AM EDT
tag, for group buy
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 9:53:47 AM EDT
Group buy sounds good to me.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 10:15:40 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 11:25:51 AM EDT
this would be AWESOME!!!!!
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 12:05:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
this would be AWESOME!!!!!



Hey ChapperJoe...

You speak Hebrew... if I had my firends in Jerusalem find out who to contact at IMI, maybe you and I could formulate a plan to try to work a group buy using an existing USA importer, such as AIM, etc... What do you think?

Rmpl
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 12:48:28 PM EDT
i'll group buy. just let me know when and how much
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 1:36:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2006 1:48:04 PM EDT by redfisher]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By FedDC:
If Black Hills would release MK 262 on the commercial market, I would buy it in droves...but if they keep it .Gov only like it is now, I will support any maker that offers something similar. Right now I use 5.56 TAP and I applaud Hornady for offering it commercially.

I know the .gov is a whale of a client but it bothers me that MK262 is not being marketed outside the world of .gov procurement.





Black Hills, remember, is not goddamn Winchester or Federal...

I doubt they have much 262 left over to sell, the military probably buys every last round...




Yet the Govt. buys it in big lots

This year the US military will use 1.8 Billion (with a B) rounds of small arms ammo with 1.2 billion coming from the Lake City Plant.

Granted that's not Black Hills, but gives a hint to the volume we are going through.

-->Article citing the "250,000 rounds to kill each insurgent" also cites the govt. buy from IMI for 5.56mm

Put that in perspective

1.8 billion rounds - placed end to end - would wrap around the equator twice + 16,000 miles!!

Link Posted: 4/7/2006 3:28:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 4:10:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sierraeight:
All,
I have a couple thoughts to share. We are certainly not elitists who think that civilans (including me) can't have what the military gets. We have big commitments to the military and will honor them. We are still producing commercial ammo, but like other companies we are having trouble keeping up with it. Backorders are occurring, and I don't see a quick fix. If the military exercises it, their contracts with suppliers must take priority over anything else the vendor is doing. So far we are doing our best at keeping up with commercial ammo demand, and importantly, we are meeting the military delivery schedule. Contractually and morally we have no choice, and we will continue to meet our military commitments.
Re other companies making MK262 Mod 1, Black Hills Ammuntion is the sole supplier. Other companies can make 77 grain 5.56 but it is not MK262 ammuntion . We have the only contract for this US gov't item. This is a small point but one that is significant, ( to us anyway). Our contract runs for the next 5 years minimum. There will continue to be cosmetic seconds available, because they are an inevitable result of our very picky hand inspection process of each loaded round. Thanks for your patience. I will be out on business until Tues, but I'll check back then if any questions. Thanks again, Jeff



Thanks for your reply Jeff, I, unlike most people here, understand the demand of military production. Thank you for making my friends in the US Army and Marine Corps serving in this war your first priority, as they should be.

I've found your Mk262 seconds to be the best 5.56mm on the market, you're making a great product, keep up the good work.

However, I will be taking part in any group buy of IMI 77 grain 5.56 that takes place... This is only because of the lack of 77grain 5.56 on the market, and not any dissatisfaction with your product. Once the military demand calms down, I'm sure more of you ammo will make it to the civilian market, and I will buy that when it happens.

Until then, I'll use the IMI if possible, simply because it's one of the few alternatives during these shortages [assuming they aren't totally bogged down with military orders too].

I hope you understand.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 4:16:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
this would be AWESOME!!!!!



Hey ChapperJoe...

You speak Hebrew... if I had my firends in Jerusalem find out who to contact at IMI, maybe you and I could formulate a plan to try to work a group buy using an existing USA importer, such as AIM, etc... What do you think?

Rmpl



If you are serious about trying to start a group buy of this stuff, forget about AIM or other suppliers. IMI only has two main importers in the United States, those would be Botach Tactical and another outfit which will remain nameless. If you want the best chance of such an order being accepted, go with Botach, trust me on that.

Botach may or may not agree to try such an order, and IMI may or may not be able to supply it. But it would have the best chance of success.

But if any group buy does take place, please private message me about it... I'm in for at least a case... Probably several.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 4:28:57 PM EDT
I thought I read here that BOTACH was no longer an IMI importer...

If they are, either Botach is stupid to not fill the ammo void left by XM193 or IMI has nothing to send the USA... I suspect the later...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 4:39:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
I always wonder how Black hills could supply the Military without help?


Whats the Head stamp on the 77OTM by Black hills?
does it have a Nato cross? is the Brass anneald



I was under the impression that all brass is annealed, but brass destined for the military skips the cosmetic polishing that removes the discoloration from civilian ammunition.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 5:22:32 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 5:25:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2006 5:25:57 PM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:
I thought I read here that BOTACH was no longer an IMI importer...



That's possible, I haven't done business with Botach in over a year... But last I knew they were still an IMI importer.

Not that long ago, IMI and Botach had a great business relationship going... If that is no longer in place, our best chance at a group buy may be gone.

IMI had another importer, who I will check with, along with Botach... Shouldn't be anything a few phone calls won't figure out.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 5:30:18 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 5:41:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2006 5:44:08 PM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]
Rmpl is correct, Botach and IMI aren't getting along so well anymore.

The current importers are Wideners (www.wideners.com) and Northwest Loadinging Supply (www.northwestloading.com/).

Might as well try both...
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 6:04:43 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:30:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 4:46:36 AM EDT by Rmplstlskn]

Originally Posted By sierraeight:
Re other companies making MK262 Mod 1, Black Hills Ammuntion is the sole supplier. Other companies can make 77 grain 5.56 but it is not MK262 ammuntion . We have the only contract for this US gov't item.



Jeff, I haven't seen MK262 blems at Cabela's in almost a year... I guess when they get some it goes right to backorders, never seeing their web site...

Is there any way Black Hills could be an IMPORTER for IMI 77g. "military-loaded" ammo?

I also still don't understand why BH doesn't make a RED BOX MK262 (call it something different). You are already loading commercial, SAAMI 77g rounds, why not boost it up to MILITARY pressures with the same powder you use in the MK262 round?

Even further, with the XM193 drought, why doesn't BH make an M193 clone in your RED BOX line of ammo? You already load 55g ammo, why not boost the power up to M193 specs? The only one that seems to have taken notice is WOLF with their M193 clone (that doesn't seem to be working that well from threads here)... Look at the feeding frenzy at AIM over 15 year old Guatemalan M193 ammo that has been stored in atrocious conditions (brass corrosion)...

I just don't understand why BH doesn't do this? It seems a HUGE untapped market, especially the M193 side of it... The only reason I can see is that BH couldn't make ammo as cheap as some of the surplus or Wolf M193 that is out there now... The 77g is still wide open though, with only TAP filling the void...

Or is it all just lawyers and LIABILITY issues with 5.56mm ammo in .223 rifles?

Rmpl
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 9:24:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 9:27:38 AM EDT by mstennes]

Jeff, I haven't seen MK262 blems at Cabela's in almost a year... I guess when they get some it goes right to backorders, never seeing their web site...

Is there any way Black Hills could be an IMPORTER for IMI 77g. "military-loaded" ammo?

I would doubt that as they are a manufacturer.

I also still don't understand why BH doesn't make a RED BOX MK262 (call it something different). You are already loading commercial, SAAMI 77g rounds, why not boost it up to MILITARY pressures with the same powder you use in the MK262 round?

Lawyers and insurance would be my best guess. Can you imagine people using the hotter ammo not knowing what it is and putting it in rifles not in good shape?

Even further, with the XM193 drought, why doesn't BH make an M193 clone in your RED BOX line of ammo? You already load 55g ammo, why not boost the power up to M193 specs? The only one that seems to have taken notice is WOLF with their M193 clone (that doesn't seem to be working that well from threads here)... Look at the feeding frenzy at AIM over 15 year old Guatemalan M193 ammo that has been stored in atrocious conditions (brass corrosion)...

That would be a interesting plan.

I just don't understand why BH doesn't do this? It seems a HUGE untapped market, especially the M193 side of it... The only reason I can see is that BH couldn't make ammo as cheap as some of the surplus or Wolf M193 that is out there now... The 77g is still wide open though, with only TAP filling the void...

I would like to see a 77 grain 5.56 pressure round that IS well marked made for us civies to.

Or is it all just lawyers and LIABILITY issues with 5.56mm ammo in .223 rifles?
+1

Rmpl

Sorry about your original post I tried to add some possible answers but somehow the edit didnt work as I thought it would. Sorry....Mike

Jeff,
Could you fill us in on some of these ideas/details?
Thanks,
Mike
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 9:38:06 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:09:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 5:17:19 PM EDT by chapperjoe]

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
this would be AWESOME!!!!!



Hey ChapperJoe...

You speak Hebrew... if I had my firends in Jerusalem find out who to contact at IMI, maybe you and I could formulate a plan to try to work a group buy using an existing USA importer, such as AIM, etc... What do you think?

Rmpl



Believe me I've been putting feelers out for the past week... like sierra said, anyone can put a 77 gr load together, I don't think it will ever be called 262 though it might be more 262-ish than std blk hills 77gr bthp.

ETA: also THANKS for the seconds!!!!! my precision rifle likee!

Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:14:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 5:15:23 PM EDT by chapperjoe]

Originally Posted By redfisher:
.



as an aside this line kills me:



The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.



We can thank Bill Clinton for that.
No incentive to have ANY surge capacity since they can't sell the surplus to us.
Fucking bastard.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:44:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

We can thank Bill Clinton for that.
No incentive to have ANY surge capacity since they can't sell the surplus to us.
Fucking bastard.



Is there any particular reason GWB cannot reverse this? Is it just an EO? If so, and he could, and he does not, then he is no better.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:46:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mstennes:

I also still don't understand why BH doesn't make a RED BOX MK262 (call it something different). You are already loading commercial, SAAMI 77g rounds, why not boost it up to MILITARY pressures with the same powder you use in the MK262 round?

Lawyers and insurance would be my best guess.




If this is the case, it would be nice if BH would just come clean and admit it.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 6:18:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sovereign:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

We can thank Bill Clinton for that.
No incentive to have ANY surge capacity since they can't sell the surplus to us.
Fucking bastard.



Is there any particular reason GWB cannot reverse this? Is it just an EO? If so, and he could, and he does not, then he is no better.



he hasn't seemed to care, though we have a better chance towards the end of his term. I don't mind buying IMI ammo for 10$ more than XM193, but the USG loses out the most with these massive foriegn contracts. wE really have a minimal domestic ammo capacity when compared to other countires.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 9:05:33 PM EDT
tag
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