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Page AR-15 » AR Discussions
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Posted: 1/10/2022 1:37:13 AM EDT
I always thought clamp on gas blocks were weak and a substandard way to affix a gas block.

Apparently a while back Military Moron did A test (you have to scroll down to the vltor sight block test) where they wanted to measure how much torque the clamp on FSB could endure before it moved. Before the sight block moved - the dang index pin sheared off!  So it endured 100+ ft lbs of torque and still didn't move.

I suppose in hind sight this makes sense given when you use a clamp on style, the entire area of the gas block Is applying clamping force, like a scope ring.

Due to the failure of the barrel index pin and damage to the receiver at about 110 ft-lbs (1320 in-lbs) (actual was more than indicated setting on the torque wrench due to the moment arm length), it's inconclusive at what point the gas block would have rotated on the barrel.
View Quote

Attachment Attached File


Attachment Attached File


Full Test details:
Click To View Spoiler
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 1:56:23 AM EDT
[#1]
I remember that test..IIRC heat & vibration were not involved.. but yeah that’s impressive anyway

It’s like the old taper pins vs roll pins debate.. sure taper pins are stronger but there’re plenty of military guns that use roll pins to hold gas blocks & bayo lugs without issue
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 2:20:38 AM EDT
[#2]
Issue I have with clamp on is that you dont really have a way to dead nuts line up the gas port to the gas block. Get close, sure. But nothing like a properly dimpled barrel with Rocksett locked set screws.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 2:22:16 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Issue I have with clamp on is that you dont really have a way to dead nuts line up the gas port to the gas block. Get close, sure. But nothing like a properly dimpled barrel with Rocksett locked set screws.
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Calipers. Feeler gauge.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 3:21:35 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Issue I have with clamp on is that you dont really have a way to dead nuts line up the gas port to the gas block. Get close, sure. But nothing like a properly dimpled barrel with Rocksett locked set screws.
View Quote

I've installed them and feel like there's plenty of room for error and still install it just fine. Like the other guy said, a feeler gauge or just a piece of cardboard of the right thickness if your installing a free float handguard and not a handguard that uses the sheet metal piece in front.. The gas port on the barrel is way smaller than the gas port on the block so you have quite a bit of room for error.

Having said that, yes "dead nuts" may be difficult but I think it's far from necessary.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 4:06:56 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Issue I have with clamp on is that you dont really have a way to dead nuts line up the gas port to the gas block. Get close, sure. But nothing like a properly dimpled barrel with Rocksett locked set screws.
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Bore scope. Any competent smith has no issues aligning a gas port.

The issue with clamp ons these days is that rails are getting more and more loprofile and clamp on designs lend themselves against being compatible. With a compatible rail though they're great.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 11:42:22 AM EDT
[#6]
Added pics and test details to op for posterity / archives.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 11:43:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Bore scope. Any competent smith has no issues aligning a gas port.

The issue with clamp ons these days is that rails are getting more and more loprofile and clamp on designs lend themselves against being compatible. With a compatible rail though they're great.
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Clamp on block are getting small too. Just look at the SLR and Superlative arms adjustable clamp ons
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 12:54:30 PM EDT
[#8]
I just put a clamp on, adjustable SLR and was amazed at how small it was.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 1:13:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 4:02:12 PM EDT
[#10]
US Marshal's Special Operations Group runs a clamped gas block on their 11.5" blasters.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 5:11:37 PM EDT
[#11]
I was actually imagining the SLR clamp on when I wrote that. The fasteners stick out the side and will usually be the point of contact between the rail and the gas block. No hate on the gas block though, just the reality.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 5:14:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Hey OP, pinned is stronger than you think
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 5:19:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Issue I have with clamp on is that you dont really have a way to dead nuts line up the gas port to the gas block. Get close, sure. But nothing like a properly dimpled barrel with Rocksett locked set screws.
View Quote


Toothpick! Put a piece of round toothpick in the gas hole and cut it at the top, put on the gas block, invert, and wiggle it until the toothpick falls in the hole. After tightening break off with a cleaning rod.
This is not rocket surgery folks.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 6:50:02 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 7:15:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Jamming brittle shit into your gas system and breaking it off is a poor way to assemble a gas assy. A teslong borescope is like $70, there's no excuse to do the job incorrectly.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 7:41:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Issue I have with clamp on is that you dont really have a way to dead nuts line up the gas port to the gas block. Get close, sure. But nothing like a properly dimpled barrel with Rocksett locked set screws.
View Quote


The gas port hole on the GB is larger than the one on the barrel..
The GB needs to be really canted in order to screw things up.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 8:41:45 PM EDT
[#17]
The VLTOR gas block I have on one rifle had a small hole on the bottom you line up with the port then your rotate the block 180*. Worked great for me and I haven't had it work loose yet, but I only have half a case through that particular gun.

It barely fits inside the Troy Battle Rail but that hasn't caused any issues yet either.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 10:05:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The gas port hole on the GB is larger than the one on the barrel..
The GB needs to be really canted in order to screw things up.
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This. Port in the gas block is substantially larger than the barrel usually.

Last clamp on I assembled was the ARMS #41 flip up front sight. It had a spacer to take the place of the handguard endcap so it was dirt simple. I mechanically zeroed the front sight by using a bubble level on the receiver and then on the front sight. I only had to adjust windage a couple clicks on the rear sight though I suppose if you wanted a true mechanical zero you could adjust the front sight side to side.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 10:06:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The gas port hole on the GB is larger than the one on the barrel..
The GB needs to be really canted in order to screw things up.
View Quote


This. Port in the gas block is substantially larger than the barrel usually.

Last clamp on I assembled was the ARMS #41 flip up front sight. It had a spacer to take the place of the handguard endcap so it was dirt simple. I mechanically zeroed the front sight by using a bubble level on the receiver and then on the front sight. I only had to adjust windage a couple clicks on the rear sight though I suppose if you wanted a true mechanical zero you could adjust the front sight side to side.
Link Posted: 1/10/2022 10:11:31 PM EDT
[#20]
I have three clamp-ons...but had to remove them.  
Had nothing to do with strength....I knew they were plenty strong.  As someone mentioned, the issue is that free float rails are so small that clamps were touching the rails.

Clamp-ons are strong enough, and technically more accurate (or so the saying goes).

Are there any clamp-ons that fit under MI Combat rails?
Link Posted: 1/11/2022 2:00:58 AM EDT
[#21]
Wojtek gas blocks have the gas hole through the top to line up the gas hole while clamping.  They're low profile and inexpensive as well.
Link Posted: 1/11/2022 2:06:27 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have three clamp-ons...but had to remove them.  
Had nothing to do with strength....I knew they were plenty strong.  As someone mentioned, the issue is that free float rails are so small that clamps were touching the rails.

Clamp-ons are strong enough, and technically more accurate (or so the saying goes).

Are there any clamp-ons that fit under MI Combat rails?
View Quote

The SLR  gas block I just put on is under a MI combat rail. It fit fine
Link Posted: 1/11/2022 10:43:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Toothpick! Put a piece of round toothpick in the gas hole and cut it at the top, put on the gas block, invert, and wiggle it until the toothpick falls in the hole. After tightening break off with a cleaning rod.
This is not rocket surgery folks.
View Quote


Break off and it stays in the gas system.
Link Posted: 1/12/2022 1:20:39 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The gas port hole on the GB is larger than the one on the barrel..
The GB needs to be really canted in order to screw things up.
View Quote


This. I've never measured one, by just eyeballing it, the hole in every gas block I've ever seen looked like it was 0.100" or bigger.

Two clamp bolts is the same thing that's holding the front forks on to a motorcycle. Sure, I've got forks to shift in the clamps before, but the amount of force that it takes to do it is certainly not something you could ever replicate onto a low-profile gas block.
Link Posted: 1/12/2022 1:24:41 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have three clamp-ons...but had to remove them.  
Had nothing to do with strength....I knew they were plenty strong.  As someone mentioned, the issue is that free float rails are so small that clamps were touching the rails.

Clamp-ons are strong enough, and technically more accurate (or so the saying goes).

Are there any clamp-ons that fit under MI Combat rails?
View Quote


Never owned that exact rail, but VLTOR or Superlative Arms both fit under an Aero Precision R-one, which is about as skinny as they get. Daniel Defense does not, the clamp screws are a little too chunky.
Link Posted: 1/12/2022 2:02:58 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Issue I have with clamp on is that you dont really have a way to dead nuts line up the gas port to the gas block. Get close, sure. But nothing like a properly dimpled barrel with Rocksett locked set screws.
View Quote

Sure you do. Just use thin or angel hair spaghetti. Break off a piece in the gas port, turn the barrel upside down, and you can easily feel where the center should be. Even if you don't have thin spaghetti on hand or don't want to go get some, the gas block's port is huge compared to the barrel's port though. You have a large margin of error, so as long as you get it reasonably straight, you are usually good.
Link Posted: 1/12/2022 2:25:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Again, a teslong borescope is too cheap and useful a tool for a home builder to be shoving wheat noodles and toothpicks and breaking them off inside your gas system.
Link Posted: 1/12/2022 4:31:40 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Again, a teslong borescope is too cheap and useful a tool for a home builder to be shoving wheat noodles and toothpicks and breaking them off inside your gas system.
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A borescope would be ideal, but I certainly wouldn't shove a toothpick in my gas port. That's asking for trouble. Spaghetti is cheap and works. There's nothing wrong with simple solutions like that.
Link Posted: 1/12/2022 7:27:35 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Break off and it stays in the gas system.
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Push it out of the bbl with a cleaning rod.

Actual kits available HERE.


In reality,  alignment of a GB is not too damn unmanageable.
Link Posted: 1/12/2022 7:38:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Again, a teslong borescope is too cheap and useful a tool for a home builder to be shoving wheat noodles and toothpicks and breaking them off inside your gas system.
View Quote

A bore scope will likely do nothing more than confuse the majority of users and distract those who have no idea what they are looking at chasing and attempting to ID every anomaly that they encounter.



Link Posted: 1/12/2022 11:21:32 AM EDT
[#31]
Granted, easy thing to do when you don't know what fouling looks like at 5x magnification. But if we're just talking about aligning a gas port, there is no substitute for visual verification.
Link Posted: 1/12/2022 11:41:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Granted, easy thing to do when you don't know what fouling looks like at 5x magnification. But if we're just talking about aligning a gas port, there is no substitute for visual verification.
View Quote


If one has a scope and wants to use it, I definitely can't blame them, for sure.

Ultimately though, far from a necessity.

GP alignment is far from as critical as most make it out to be, IMO. There is adequate room for error, and they will run just fine without absolute centering.

Example:

Attachment Attached File


Definitely not far enough out of alignment to cause issues with function.
Link Posted: 1/14/2022 12:15:06 AM EDT
[#33]
Don't care, all my gas blocks get pinned. Period.
Link Posted: 1/14/2022 3:03:16 AM EDT
[#34]
Plenty of ways to skin a cat, or in this case install a gas block. I still believe a dimple jig is cheaper, easier and 100% precise.

To each their own!
Link Posted: 1/14/2022 10:00:24 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Don't care, all my gas blocks get pinned. Period.
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I agree 100%, anything less is a range toy.
Link Posted: 1/14/2022 11:19:42 AM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I agree 100%, anything less is a range toy.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't care, all my gas blocks get pinned. Period.


I agree 100%, anything less is a range toy.

And then there are all of those M4A1s and URGIs down range.


To each their own.....
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