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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 7/29/2003 5:47:44 AM EDT
Anyone hunt with your AR. I've used my flattop for hogs, turkey, and spotlighting varmints. Never had any complaints. Anyone ever used one deer hunting?
I'm wondering how a .223 55grn FMJ stands up. Any stopping power issues?

Mark
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 6:23:49 AM EDT
is there any states that allow that caliber to hunt deer legally?
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 6:36:41 AM EDT
I believe the .223 round leaves too many wounded animals - just my opinion. Also as ar15full questions above what about your state laws ??
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 6:44:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 7:06:57 AM EDT
Just my opinion, but I wouldn't use one for deer. Deer around here are pretty good size. While there are several bullet choices more suitable to deer-sized game, I think there are better choices available. I wouldn't hesitate to use an AR for varmits or coyotes. I'm sure someone will point out that shot placement is everything. For example, poachers shoot many, many deer with .22 lr rounds every year. Just because it is possible doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job IMHO.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 7:24:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NFBBM: Anyone hunt with your AR. I've used my flattop for hogs, turkey, and spotlighting varmints. Never had any complaints. Anyone ever used one deer hunting? I'm wondering how a .223 55grn FMJ stands up. Any stopping power issues? Mark
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We have to use at least .24 cal around here (TN) for deer or other big game. Personally I wouldn't attempt anything above a coyote or feral hogs with the .223 The FMJ won't reliably expand, it likes to fragment, not much good for dropping game in their tracks.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 7:31:31 AM EDT
On small whitetail, I know people who have had good results with 62gr softpoints and proper bullet placement. For larger whitetail or muleys, I'd move up to .243 as a minimum caliber. Plus, I'd never hunt with FMJ. Not only is it against the law in some states, it's just not ethical, IMHO. Use a good expanding bullet and make sure your shot is clean. You owe it to the animal. I've used .223 to kill many varmints, though. It's damn near perfect for coyote, raccoon, possum and prairie dogs. 45 - 55gr JHP or BT hit like lightning on those little critters!
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 9:18:39 AM EDT
What about with some 100 grain Sierra Match King? Surely that would put a deer down.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 9:26:28 AM EDT
Thanks guys. In Texas I believe it's legal to use a .223 but I think I'll pick up the AR-10 I've been looking at. I know a 308 will do the job. BTW. I have yet to find a better all around ranch rifle than the AR15. Shoot on! [sniper2]
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 9:46:52 AM EDT
I would suggest that everyone should read the discussions that have been going on in the Ammo forum. There are several threads about lethality of bullets (particularly .223) in people. The consensus is that a bullet that fragments actually creates a larger wound cavity and is more likely to sever nerves and damage blood vessels and cause a MORE rapid bleed out then a bullet that expands yet stays in one peice. There is a link (which I am having trouble finding at the moment) to an FBI study about pistol caliber sub guns and .223 entry weapons. The basic gist of that study is that there is less chance of a .223 going through someone then a pistol round and more chance of death/incapitation. I am not much of a biologist, but a deer is not terribly larger then a man, and being a mammal, is built the same internally. A 62gr to 77gr bullet should be more then effective for deer. Of course if you are out doing 1000 yard shots...get a larger gun. Or if you are planning on hunting in thickets/dense brush with few clear fire lanes, .30 cal rounds do better then .223. No bullet is going to "knock a deer down" simple newtonian physics prevents it. One might cut the spinal cord or frighten the deer enough from the impact that it will fall, but not simply from the size of your round. Oh, and an AR is better for humping through the woods then a nice walnut stocked, shiny blued rifle. Personal experience, drop a prized family 30.06, drop your AR....see which one makes your stomach do a harder flip.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 9:54:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By phatmax: Personal experience, drop a prized family 30.06, drop your AR....see which one makes your stomach do a harder flip.
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[snoopy] [:D]
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 10:28:24 AM EDT
I would suggest that everyone should read the discussions that have been going on in the Ammo forum. There are several threads about lethality of bullets (particularly .223) in people. The consensus is that a bullet that fragments actually creates a larger wound cavity and is more likely to sever nerves and damage blood vessels and cause a MORE rapid bleed out then a bullet that expands yet stays in one peice. There is a link (which I am having trouble finding at the moment) to an FBI study about pistol caliber sub guns and .223 entry weapons. The basic gist of that study is that there is less chance of a .223 going through someone then a pistol round and more chance of death/incapitation.
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Phatmax, I take it you’re not a deer hunter. The bullets to which you refer (FMJ designed to fragment) are designed to cause massive tissue damage, but that doesn’t mean they are designed for hunting purposes. It is illegal in most states to hunt with FMJ ammo for that very reason. A hunter is interested in killing the animal with the least amount of meat damage. This means using an expanding bullet that retains most of it’s weight.
I am not much of a biologist, but a deer is not terribly larger then a man, and being a mammal, is built the same internally. A 62gr to 77gr bullet should be more then effective for deer. Of course if you are out doing 1000 yard shots...get a larger gun. Or if you are planning on hunting in thickets/dense brush with few clear fire lanes, .30 cal rounds do better then .223. No bullet is going to "knock a deer down" simple newtonian physics prevents it. One might cut the spinal cord or frighten the deer enough from the impact that it will fall, but not simply from the size of your round.
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A .22 lr will effectively kill a deer with the right shot placement. You can also skin an animal with a butter knife. The point is there are often better tools for the job. You point out the 62 and 77-grain bullets as being good performers on deer-sized game. I agree with you that these are the best choices in a .223 caliber for deer-sized game. I’ll disagree with you on the “no bullet is going to knock a deer down” comment. I’ve got a .50 muzzleloader and a 7mm Mag that beg to differ. A deer with two broken shoulders goes down hard. On occasion, they might manage to get back up, but they won’t go far. I sincerely mean no offense. I’m just of the opinion that there are much better caliber and bullet choices out there. I also am of the opinion that people who aren’t experienced deer hunters shouldn’t offer opinions regarding deer hunting questions. Again, just my .02 worth. BTW, welcome to the site.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 12:37:52 PM EDT
Phatmax, I take it you’re not a deer hunter. The bullets to which you refer (FMJ designed to fragment) are designed to cause massive tissue damage, but that doesn’t mean they are designed for hunting purposes. It is illegal in most states to hunt with FMJ ammo for that very reason. A hunter is interested in killing the animal with the least amount of meat damage. This means using an expanding bullet that retains most of it’s weight. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not much of a biologist, but a deer is not terribly larger then a man, and being a mammal, is built the same internally. A 62gr to 77gr bullet should be more then effective for deer. Of course if you are out doing 1000 yard shots...get a larger gun. Or if you are planning on hunting in thickets/dense brush with few clear fire lanes, .30 cal rounds do better then .223. No bullet is going to "knock a deer down" simple newtonian physics prevents it. One might cut the spinal cord or frighten the deer enough from the impact that it will fall, but not simply from the size of your round. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A .22 lr will effectively kill a deer with the right shot placement. You can also skin an animal with a butter knife. The point is there are often better tools for the job. You point out the 62 and 77-grain bullets as being good performers on deer-sized game. I agree with you that these are the best choices in a .223 caliber for deer-sized game. I’ll disagree with you on the “no bullet is going to knock a deer down” comment. I’ve got a .50 muzzleloader and a 7mm Mag that beg to differ. A deer with two broken shoulders goes down hard. On occasion, they might manage to get back up, but they won’t go far. I sincerely mean no offense. I’m just of the opinion that there are much better caliber and bullet choices out there. I also am of the opinion that people who aren’t experienced deer hunters shouldn’t offer opinions regarding deer hunting questions. Again, just my .02 worth. BTW, welcome to the site. Good info all. After talking with my hunting buddies, it looks like I'll be going with the AR-10. I've been looking at the the at a few and wonder; Who has one and what do you like/dis-like about them in the field? I'll be using the weapon primarily for larger N.A. game. (Mule, white tail, elk) How do you like the weight/feel of the gun? Brand? Too heavy? Complaints? Modifications off the shelf? I have noting but good things to say about my Colt. How does a comparable weapon of larger caliber do in the field? Again, thanks guys!
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 1:05:24 PM EDT
its legal in oregon to use a .223, i have a uncle that has hunted deer with a .223 bolt gun for the last ten years, he gets a deer every year. he says it doesnt destroy as much meat, he has been hunting for the last forty years. he laughs at the guys that use a 300 win mag and blow a six inch hole out the side of the deer. i was thinking of using my 20" AR but i think ill use my .308 since im not as patient or as skilled as my uncle. he sits and waits for the good shot before he fires.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 2:54:09 PM EDT
my wife is a very small lady, around 115 ibs at 5'2". she will be hunting with my ar 15 this fall. she will be using winchester ballistic silver tips in 55 grain. her shots will be 100 yds or less. a 55 grain bullet placed behind the shoulder of a whitetail will put it down within 30 to 60 yds. also hunting bullets are designed to expend all or most of their energy into the tissue of the target animal killing it with massive organ damage and shock. my hunting buddy has killed several deer here in oklahoma with 22-250 and 55 grain bullets none went further than 60 yds. as long as one keeps in minds the limits of their weapon, and themselves, the outcome should be positive.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 3:18:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OUTALEAD: winchester ballistic silver tips in 55 grain.
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hmm... have you ever taken a deer with 55grn BST? When I used them on some jack rabbits they barely got the job done. 55grn SP, now theres another story. They turned a rabbit inside-out before it knew what hit it. I am also planning on using my AR for the deer hunt, but I'm going to use nothing smaller than 64grn and probably soft point.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 3:25:49 PM EDT
I have personally experience with 223's and deer hunting. I experimented with it last season, I was shooting the new Nosler Partition 60grs out of my Remington 700. I harvested 2 does with this combination and both deer dropped on the spot. I was shooting these deer where you are taught not to, but like I said I was experimenting, I shot both of them through the ears. The ranges were 75 yards and 175 yards. I do not reccomend people do this, the only reason I did was because I felt kind of insecure with a 223 deer hunting and I wanted them to drop on the spot. I had a solid rest and the deer were standing shots. BTW I have harvested around 40 deer with both rifle and bow, and this is not my normal deer cartridge. BTW I do not reccomend a 223 on deer after my experience(s) and from what I have seen others do to deer while hunting with a 223. Do NOT attempt to use FMJs on big game. The AR10 is an awesome gun and the caliber is superb for deer. I'd go that route. Just my $.02
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 12:16:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2003 12:17:54 PM EDT by 800Mtrs]
I tried it out after feeling that the round would be enough in Missouri for deer with a well placed shot. I harvested 2 deer and they dropped pretty quick (10 yards) Well placed vital Heart shot. (8 pointer) [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid71/pfce89174bd320243bd9f95963279838c/fb876fea.jpg[/img] I was using 62g soft nose ammo and definately not FMJ. I think it was Winchester. I will check when I get home. edited to add that the range was 50 and ~ 100yds
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 12:43:14 PM EDT
While the .223 is legal in this state--based on ft-lbs-----its more of a stunt than anything. Your deer needs to be put down with a caliber that will insure a quick--clean--humane kill----something the .223 won't always do. Look into a .270 or .308 for deer hunting. NEVER use FMJ for hunting---no matter the caliber.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 1:14:17 PM EDT
Why did I click on this thread? AR-15 works best for beating dead horses. Once again. My family has hunted mule deer for many many years with nothing but a .222 rem. bolt gun using 55 gr soft points. It was more than adequite for taking muleys at close to moderate ranges and there are many benefits. 1. Less damage to meat 2. Can practice with your hunting rifle on ground squirrels in the summer time and get really good at it. It's hard to miss a good clean shot when your proficient at blasting 8" gophers at 250 yds. 3. Less recoil 4. Less noise 5. Cheaper to shoot and reload (must be the Scots blood), thinking back I can't recall ever needing more than one shot. 6. Lightwieght. .223 would be even better while having the same benefits. That said. It is not a long distance gun, but that's rarely needed, in MT anyway mule deer aren't hard to find. Long distance is for antelope, and sometimes elk hunting. It is definately not a brush gun. I haven't felt the need to go hunting lately because it seems to be more expensive then just buying meat nowadays,and the out-of-staters are ruining it for us. But if I did, I'd pick up my AR15 load it with Sierra 63 gr SP and feel more than capable.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 1:29:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ridge: and the out-of-staters are ruining it for us.
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REALLY? Dang, and I always have dreamt about taking a trip to MT to go Elk hunting. Guess if the locals feel this way I'll just stay in NE and hunt my white tails.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 1:46:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2003 2:06:08 PM EDT by NickFury]
My wife's primary deer rifle was an AR for several years - but it was chambered in 7.62x39mm. She used it until I picked her up a nice Interarms Mark X Mauser in that same chambering - a neighbor had built & custom fit the stock on it for his son (who had since outgrown it) years before, and it fits her like a glove. Much more conventional and fewer raised eyebrows - but that AR served her well and still would today. edited to add: FWIW, plenty of folks here in Alabama use .223 for whitetail - especially women & youngsters.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 1:47:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2003 1:50:45 PM EDT by Ridge]
Guess, I'm bitter and must clarify this statement. (sorry for off topic). The MT ranchers and land owners are getting greedy (so maybe it's actually our fault), and closing down there land to the average joe shmo hunter trying to feed his/her family. More and more of them are reserving their land for the super elite, rich, out-of state hunters that pay tons of money for a guided hunt on private land reserved just for them. So they can go blast a bambi and show it off to their country club friends. So this is what I mean by out-if-staters taking the fun out of it for us. It's getting harder and harder. Plus we have an influx of liberal types moving into the area where I live and buying up all the land to built 5 million dollar homes that 2 people can live in. In the past we never experienced problems with out-of-state hunters. In fact we went out of our way to support them because they bring a lot of revenue in to the state. Just sad that it's not like it used to be, when they would hunt along-side of us. I apoligize for my statial (as opposed to racial [:)]) slurr.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 3:02:33 PM EDT
Do soft point loads cycle and group very well in ARs... I always heard to avoid them? I was considering using a ballistic tip or perhaps the remington premier accutip with my AR10 for mule deer this year.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 4:51:19 PM EDT
I took a spike buck at about 100 yards last year with my Mossy Oak Bushmaster, used handloaded Speer 70gr Semi-spitzers. The buck went about 70 yards or so. Massive internal damage. I have had them go farther with just as lethal hits using a .270 and 30-06. I am a firm believer that shot placement is the key. YOU HAVE TO BE PATIENT AND WAIT FOR THE PROPER SHOT!!
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 5:52:00 PM EDT
I love using my AR for hunting. I use a standard 20" barrel Bushy loaded with rounds made with the 60gr Hornady V-Max bullets on top of 26g of VARGET powder. Here in KY we can hunt deer with any centerfire cartridge and I have taken two with my AR. I can tell you for sure that a neck shot on a whitetail can take one down, dead, at 252 steps. It has also made a great varmit round. I have now got to where I take my AR hunting more than my ole favorite bolt actions.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 10:04:28 PM EDT
My .02 [beathorse] If it is legal to use a .223 in your state (it is here in Texas) than go right ahead. Practice your shot placement, and make sure that you are close (100 yds or so). If you have the confidence to be able to make a clean kill than go for it. I have seen "hunters" blow the hips out of a buck with a .300 win mag and a .30-06. The only way to make sure you stop a deer dead in it's tracks with one hit is to use your truck. Other than that, you can expect to trail a deer with what ever you use from time to time. That being said, I have used everything from a .222 to .30-06 myself and have settled on .270 as a great all around deer gun. I also prefer a bolt action for this type of hunting. However, if you are set on using your AR to hunt deer, please use a soft tip bullet. (It is illegal to use FMJ in Texas) Also consider a new upper from Olympic in .243 WSSM. That is more than enough round for any but the largest muley's around. They should be available by the end of September. Happy hunting.[beer]
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 10:25:42 PM EDT
My neighbor (we live in Louisiana) hunts deer regularly with a Mini-14. He lost one arm in a piece of machinery, and he has to stick with small weapons that he can manage. He said that you will have to do a little tracking after the shot, but if you get them close and do your part to get a well placed shot, it works just fine. I am not sure of what type of ammo he uses. I would guess that it is some specially suited stuff.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 10:30:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ar15fullauto: is there any states that allow that caliber to hunt deer legally?
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In Texas, a fella can use any centerfire round, I've seen guys take deer with the .17 remington. I wouldn't try it, but it is legal.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 10:36:26 PM EDT
GOD BLESS TEXAS! From firearms to hunting regulations, you are more free than the average bear!
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 3:13:22 AM EDT
Legal in Michigan... I've taken 2 with my AR's but as everyone is point out, proper ammo and shot placement is everything. There have been many deer that have walked by over the years that I could have taken with a heavier caliber but the shots were iffy with the .223 so they kept on walking... If you use the .223, be prepared to let your venison walk away while you wait for a better opportunity... I'd love to hunt Turkey with an AR... my 2 Bushy V-Match AR's with Leupolds or Oly PCR-16/Leupold combo are accurate enough to handle a head shot easily at the typical ranges I'm seeing Turkey on my property, but Michigan only allows firearms that fire shot for Turkey... Too bad, I'd bet Wild Turkey would taste even better if I got to take it with an AR...
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 6:03:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chaos4570:
Originally Posted By ar15fullauto: is there any states that allow that caliber to hunt deer legally?
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In Texas, a fella can use any centerfire round, I've seen guys take deer with the .17 remington. I wouldn't try it, but it is legal.
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Isnt the .17 HMR a RIMFIRE?? That would be illegal correct? Yup the .17 HMR is a Rimfire. Is the .17 Remington the same as a HMR?
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 7:29:29 AM EDT
Yes, we have it made in Texas. I have friend who is one of those country boys who grew up hunting barefoot with a .22 hornet. He popped a doe at 25 yards with a head shot with that thing. Of course once these good ole boys get going with thier stories, your likely to here about a cousins half brother who killed a ten point with a BB gun! I like what Darkstar said, a .223 is a great round for turkey and YES, WE CAN HUNT TURKEY WITH A RIFLE!! WOOO WHOOOO Yipee Ki Yay mother..... [}:D]
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 7:46:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ridge: Guess, I'm bitter and must clarify this statement. (sorry for off topic). The MT ranchers and land owners are getting greedy (so maybe it's actually our fault), and closing down there land to the average joe shmo hunter trying to feed his/her family. More and more of them are reserving their land for the super elite, rich, out-of state hunters that pay tons of money for a guided hunt on private land reserved just for them. So they can go blast a bambi and show it off to their country club friends. So this is what I mean by out-if-staters taking the fun out of it for us. It's getting harder and harder. Plus we have an influx of liberal types moving into the area where I live and buying up all the land to built 5 million dollar homes that 2 people can live in. In the past we never experienced problems with out-of-state hunters. In fact we went out of our way to support them because they bring a lot of revenue in to the state. Just sad that it's not like it used to be, when they would hunt along-side of us. I apoligize for my statial (as opposed to racial [:)]) slurr.
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So it wouldnt be the out of state hunters, but the instate landowners who are ruining it for you.
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 8:06:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2003 9:51:45 AM EDT by NickFury]
Originally Posted By 800Mtrs: Isnt the .17 HMR a RIMFIRE?? That would be illegal correct? Yup the .17 HMR is a Rimfire. Is the .17 Remington the same as a HMR?
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.17 HMR = .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire. .17 Remington is a factory-loaded centerfire cartridge based upon the .223 case. I have an AR in .17 Remington. It most certainly is NOT a .17 HMR. (IIRC, the .17 Remington & the .220 Swift are the only two [b]commercially-loaded[/b] cartridges with muzzle velocities greater than 4,000 FPS.)
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 12:49:31 AM EDT
I have lived in Texas for 18 years. Never shot a deer here because: 1. Ambush is not hunting 2. It costs a fortune 3. I have dogs as big as the deer here (1)No skill or sport involved when you feed animals all year then shoot them one day when they come to chow. I have had this fight with native Texans many times. Go hump the mountains in WV where you have to really WORK to get a shot, then hump that real deer back out to camp. That is deer hunting. (2)Land owners charge a small fortune to let people shoot these deer here. From a blind over looking the feeder, please. (3)The South Texas deer are small. I consider the 5.56 to be an anti personnel round. I will shoot a bad guy with it but will give an an innocent animal the benefit of a .30 caliber.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 4:00:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mack811: I have lived in Texas for 18 years. Never shot a deer here because: 1. Ambush is not hunting 2. It costs a fortune 3. I have dogs as big as the deer here (1)No skill or sport involved when you feed animals all year then shoot them one day when they come to chow. I have had this fight with native Texans many times. Go hump the mountains in WV where you have to really WORK to get a shot, then hump that real deer back out to camp. That is deer hunting. (2)Land owners charge a small fortune to let people shoot these deer here. From a blind over looking the feeder, please. (3)The South Texas deer are small. I consider the 5.56 to be an anti personnel round. I will shoot a bad guy with it but will give an an innocent animal the benefit of a .30 caliber.
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Nothing in Texas State law says you have to Ambush hunt or hunt over a feeder. I have never taken a Big Buck at a feeder(except during rut, chasing does). That's how they get big.....stay away from feeders. The only time I hunt over a feeder is when I have my boys with me. They see lots of game, it keeps them interested.( it is nothing to see 20-60 deer over a feeder in some parts down South, each outing) South Texas deer are small?!?! Depends on where you hunt. Lots of counties throughout Texas are overrun with the beasts, thus the small size, competition for food. Hunt a less densly populated (deer) area. North, West, East, and yes even parts of South Texas produce large deer. I have taken some good bucks in South Texas. Big enough that I couldn't pick them up. Go hump the canyons of West Texas, or Hill Country and then tell us about your pic-nic. It costs a fortune because People from out of state and big cities are willing to pay it. Can't really blame the Red-Necked Farmer for charging what he does. Although I do Have a Bitch about the high prices also. Do your homework and you can find a reasonably priced place to hunt, or MOVE out of state where much of the land is federally owned.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 4:04:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 800Mtrs:
Originally Posted By chaos4570:
Originally Posted By ar15fullauto: is there any states that allow that caliber to hunt deer legally?
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In Texas, a fella can use any centerfire round, I've seen guys take deer with the .17 remington. I wouldn't try it, but it is legal.
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Isnt the .17 HMR a RIMFIRE?? That would be illegal correct? Yup the .17 HMR is a Rimfire. Is the .17 Remington the same as a HMR?
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You are correct a .17HMR is a rimfire making it illegal to hunt deer with in Texas. The .17 Remington is a Centerfire round. Making it LEGAL to hunt deer with in Texas. A pretty poor choice, but Legal.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 6:14:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NFBBM: Anyone hunt with your AR. I've used my flattop for hogs, turkey, and spotlighting varmints. Never had any complaints. Anyone ever used one deer hunting? I'm wondering how a .223 55grn FMJ stands up. Any stopping power issues? Mark
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AR-15 is worthless for big game. Try an AK-47. Much better.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 9:09:18 PM EDT
Hey guys, I read the .223 WSSM uppers made by Olympic Arms should be shipping in 3 to 4 weeks. I might just have to get one of these. Thanks Arvin
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