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Page AR-15 » Rimfire and Pistol Calibers
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Posted: 8/8/2011 11:27:31 AM EST
I recently bought a used Kuehl .22 upper. From what I can gather, this is an earlier model (non-captive bolt assy). This is for use on my M16, and has the auto-trip and anti-bounce weight.

I've only had it out a couple times...first time it had a fair number of jams (doublefeeds, fail-to-ejects), but I did get one clean mag dump. I then polished the Ciener kit contact areas with a Dremel felt wheel and some Brasso, and also did the feed ramp- carefully, I thought.

I now have a nice gouge on the feed ramp, and the upper will not feed consistently at all. I've tried hand-sanding it with 220 grit wrapped around a 22 cartridge, still no joy. Pretty sick about this.

I haven't taken it to my 'smtih yet, but am assuming that I've cocked the thing up. In case he cannot fix my clownings, what options are available to me to get this thing back up? I understand Kuehl is no longer in biz, and that the Spike's barrels would work (with milling on the sides for the Ciener kit rails), but that Spike's no longer sells them.

Could one of the collars from CMMG be made to work (with rail milling)? If not, are there any other .22 AR barrels available that could be made to work?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated...I've got a good 'smith, but would like to have some ideas to offer him if I'm not just totally hosed here.

Link Posted: 8/8/2011 1:33:44 PM EST
[#1]
Really, need to see pictures... They will be worth a Bazillion Words... Then we can give you some options...
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 6:34:35 PM EST
[#2]
Hope this show the problem:






Again, thx for any help offered. The gouge looks deeper in the photo than it feels.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 2:42:50 AM EST
[#3]
If you can't buff the gouge, you might might RanG or Beyer to make the MKII (collar) type.
The MKI will run better, thorough.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:44:05 AM EST
[#4]
Man, you take Awesome Pictures... I don't see how that (IMHO) small nick / gouge can be causing feed issues by itself...
I now atleast understand what Rick was doing with this set up... At one time he was using barrels that had used the complete
Ciener Conversion. This is one of the later models. I would think maybe the recoil spring is in need of some attention, either it's
loose or too strong.  I still think the bullets should feed over that slight imperfection... Only thing that concerns me is how much
you actually took off using sand paper. Are you using Black Dog Machine or CMMG Magazines? If you are using the Ciener Metal
Mags, all I ever had was feeding problems with them... If you are using Cieners Mags, everything else may be good.

Dave / Spec

PS: Good to see you posting Lee... Hope all is well...
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 6:59:53 AM EST
[#5]
Thx, guys. (Those pictures were the best  out of perhaps 60 taken with a small flashlight in other hand ).

I'm using both BDM and CMMG (tabs filed down) mags, same result. I swapped out recoil springs between a full-length Lakeside, another cut halfway between regular and full length, and a standard. Same thing.

I took it to my smith this AM, and he said the same thing, that he didn't think that small of a gouge would cause the feeding issues. My work with the sandpaper really was minimal, despite my hamhandedness with the Dremel. He feels that he can get that gouge out or at least minimized, and will be pulling the barrel later.

Given that some of the malfs are double-feeds when it did feed (dry-cycling), I've also ordered another extractor in case.

Thx for the input- it's good to know we can collar it if it turns out the gouge is a prob. Any other suggestions welcomed.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:23:20 AM EST
[#6]
I also don't believe the gouge is the problem. I'm not familiar with Kuehls set up so I can't be much help there.
I do know small, unnoticed differences in CMMG's bolt are what make it so reliable compared to past and current competitors. Feed ramp angles, spring tensions. machining to the bolt, all add up.
Dave N
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:06:06 AM EST
[#7]
One last thing I thought of, though I don't really see it relevant: after I polished the major Ciener kit parts in wear areas with Brasso, I degreased thoroughly and gave them a coat of Militec, then 90 minutes in the oven at 170. I cannot see how anything could have warped, but I'm just throwing all the variables out there.

Consensus seems to be that it's not the gouge (which is what worried me most), so I suppose anything else is tweakable until it runs well. If need be, even another Ciener kit with the legs cut is an option; but replacing/reworking that barrel is a tougher nut than that.

Thx again, gents.

Link Posted: 8/9/2011 8:59:18 AM EST
[#8]
The main problem we see with kits malfunctioning is when they are taken apart and the rails get bent out of spec.
The CMMG stainless is stronger and doesn't ben as easily. The Cieners are weak metal and are easy to bend out of shape.
with the recoil spring removed, make sure the bolt slides freely. It's not hanging or binding anywhere. At the same time, you don't want the bolt to be loose on the rail indicating that it's spread too far apart.
Make sure you lube the Ciener BCG before use.
Dave N
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 9:50:43 AM EST
[#9]
If you had some video or someone watching you shoot you might be able to see if the bolt is going far enough to the rear to chamber a new round.  If your using the original 30 round Ciener mag this could be the problem.  The old Ciener metal mags had such weak steel the lips could easily be bent and cause feeding problems.  Get a new CMMG or Black Dog Machine mag and see if the true cause is a failure to feed.   Its possible Rick Kuehl machined the chamber feed ramp area and threaded this on the barrel in a similar fashion as the barrel extension is on a 5.56 barrel.   I really believe the barrel feed ramp/chamber  is machined in one complete assembly.     If this were the case you could take the barrel off and have a machinist remove the feed ramp area and mill the barrel to accept the CMMG collar.  You could then order a new rail/collar set from CMMG and use your existing bolt and trip lever and barrel.  

CMMG and  Brownell's sells the CMMG dedicated 22 barrel for $99 including collar.  You could order a new barrel, collar and conversion rail and switch everything over your self for $150 or less.  I still think you can salvage your present barrel for cheaper.  Let us know how this turns out.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 4:34:32 PM EST
[#10]
Are you using the extra weight for the M16 application (as compared to the AR15)?
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 7:57:16 PM EST
[#11]
Quoted:
Are you using the extra weight for the M16 application (as compared to the AR15)?


Yep. The Kuehl came with a modified Ciener kit including the anti-bounce weight and auto-trip.

I don't own any Ciener metal mags, but during the one session I had where the upper worked reasonably well, there were no issues with either BDM gen2  or CMMG mags.

Thx for all the input, gents. Shadowcop, that tip about the Ciener frame metal being weaker than CMMG's resonates with me, as even after polishing and generous Slip 2000, there was one spot where the Ciener bolt had a bit of resistance on the rail.

As it happens, I have an unused stainless CMMG conversion kit laying around that I never got around to playing with, and the frame feels MUCH more substantial than the Ciener. I can't tell for sure as the upper is at my 'smiths, but the CMMG frame MAY be thicker. If it is, I may just have him mill out the slots in the Kuehl barrel-end (where the legs, with hooks removed, go in) and use the weight and auto-trip from the Ciener on the CMMG. I may luck out and find that it's the same thickness, then it would just be a matter of removing the hooks from the end of CMMG frame. All this shouldn't be that tough, since he'll already have the barrel out.

Any thoughts on this approach, pro or con? And does anyone know offhand if the frame thickness is the same between the CMMG and Ciener kits? (I can find that out Thu either way.)




Link Posted: 8/10/2011 10:14:42 AM EST
[#12]
Try running your unit with some 0 or 5 weight Mobil 1 motor oil.  That is all I use in my .22 conversions and they all run like clocks.  I also put a CMMG cocking handle in one that uses a Ciener and it cut down on all of my ejection issues.

Regards,

John
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 2:53:38 PM EST
[#13]
I have two of those uppers.  Problems are almost always the mag lips draging on the bolt. (or other mag issue)

I had to do quite a bit of handwork filing and bending to get the old steel mags to run.  I got an original (beta tester) mag from Blackdog but never tried it. (sorry and I still have it)  Anyway put a mag in and check cycling;  I doubt it is the rest of the upper.  

I never had a chance to run full auto so I can't speak to that.

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