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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 4/3/2006 11:22:42 AM EDT
I know there are some retired and active duty soldiers/marines and law enforcement on this website. I am joining the marines this August, infantry, and I wanted to ask you who have more experience...what is the optimal fit out for your rifle? Lets say you have an M16A3 How would you fit it out?

I see plenty of rifles on this website decorated like Christmas trees, but am guessing half the stuff is not needed and just makes the rifle a little heavier and unweildy. I see high power scopes on them, when the m16 isnt really a sniper rifle.. I see flashlights, laser designators, IR illuminators, scopes, holosights.....loads of crap one one weapon.

So how would you fit out your weapon if you were going into combat? Lets say in an urban environment.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 11:59:32 AM EDT
Scope: For a scope, you want a tough optic like the Aimpoints or the ACOG. If you are going with the 1X Magnification scope, check out the Aimpoint M3, Eotech, and the always overlooked Trijicon Reflex Sight. If I was still in the Military, I would consider the Trijicon Reflex becasue it doesn't need batteries. If you want magnification, get the ACOG TA31A or TA31F.

Back-up Sights: You will need a back-up sight, just in case the scope fails. The ARMS 40L and the Troy Rear sight are good choices.

Light: Surefire or Pentagon Lights. The Pentagon lights are a little cheaper.

These are probably the bare necessities. Other things to consider:

Slings: Viking Tactics Wide Padded Sling. Make sure it is the wide one, not the regular one.

Rails: The YHM Two-Piece Handguards, Knights, or Surefire ones. These just replace the standard handguards, they are not Free-float. The YHM are a lot cheaper and just as good.

Vertical Grips: Also refered to as a "Donkey Dick". These go on the Handrail and gives you some support. The one from TangoDown is real good and it has a slot for the pressure switch for the light.

Bi-Pod: Harris Bi-pod or the Tangodown Bipod. The TangoDown one is more expensive, but if you buy the Harris and get the ARMS bipod adaptor, it almost comes to the same price.

The ones you really need are the Scope, Back-up Sights (BUIS), and the Weapon Light. All the other stuff is extra. The stuff I listed will not add that much weight to your weapon, except fot the scope. All the other stuff is pretty light. Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:05:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 12:26:21 PM EDT by WitchDoctor02]
As an infantry medic in Iraq, I carried an M9 pistol and M4 carbine. My carbine was outfitted with an M68 (Aimpoint), PAQ-4 (IR laser, which worked for shit but pointing), Knight's Armament rail system, and a three-point sling. I also used PVS-14 NVGs, which I could mount behind the M68 (which I did on a few missions, due to the fact that my Paq-4 was so inaccurate). I was in Iraq 2003 and 2004, before it was real easy to get other stuff and before the Rapid Fielding Initiative really took off. If I had the opportunity, I would have side-mounted a Surefire that was intended for weapon-use (essential for urban, in my opinion) and back-up iron sights. However, your training will make you entirely proficient with a standard rifle with no accessories - which is preferred by many combat veterans...

In my opinion, based on ten+ years and OIF, consider (for urban combat):

1) Reflex sight (very much recommended) - Aimpoint or EoTech s best for CQB, ACOG is still good for outside, but slightly disadvantaged inside. (As you'll learn, at close range, you're looking for your front sight-post, not the reticule.) Make sure it is compatible with NVGs (in case your IR laser gets beat up or malfunctions or doesn't exist), which I don't think the Trijicon reflex sight is.

and

2) Surefire Weapon Light (designed for weapon use) - remember there is such a thing as too bright, so look for 65 to 125 lumens, no more, really. In my opinion, the vertical foregrip types should be avoided for a number of reasons, including: weight, bulk, real estate on the rail, obstruction of other devices, and interference with sandbags, and prone supporting features. HOWEVER, I do recommend a standard, no-frills vertical foregrip on a rail system.

EDIT: Oh, and 3) Back-up iron sights!! We weren't able to get any back then, and I made it okay, but my M68 never failed and I always carried my carry handle in my butt-pack, just in-case.

Also, consider slings, but you'll find your favorite over time - please, though, don't be a dork and wrap your sling through the front sight assembly, as I see many Marines doing (It ends up obstructing sights, getting tangled, and looking generally gay). Instead, consider three-point slings, which can be carried at the ready, on the side, or on your back. Look out for single point slings on longer rifles (M16A2/A3/A4), as they tend to allow the weapon to hang too low for inevitable combat tasks. For long while, I simply hooked by M4 to some 550 cord and a carabineer that was snapped to my IBA shoulder strap - which worked great, as long as I wore my vest (not so good inside the wire).

Otherwise, avoid stuff that will only weigh-down your rifle. After time, you will figure out what is really useful for you.

Avoid (at risk of being ate-up [8up] and/or retarded) - Bi-pods, high-power scopes, multiple lights, spare mag carriers (which are slow, heavy, bulky, and totally unnecessary when you are wearing IBA or load-bearing vest), and dual or modified mags (which get trashed, full of sand, and generally fuck-up [seriously] -- only popular outside the infantry)

Remember, for now, you should concentrate on simplicity and instruction, and don't worry about later - besides, your unit SOP may prevent you from any personal modifications, though not necessarily. If they do allow mods, you will find that every person has their own way. In that case, I always recommend paying more for quality, tested gear the first time around. In any case, good luck!

EDIT: Oh, and if you're using an M4, a rail system is ideal.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:11:20 PM EDT
I bought a...well it has m16a2 stamped on the lower reciever and the upper reciever looks like....I dont know what to call it, but heres a description.

Flat top / 16 inch Heavy chrome lined barrel / retractable stock / eotech sight NV capable

I ordered a new handgaurd with rails on it so I could mount extras as needed, and also some flip up front and rear sights in case the eotech holosight isnt working for some reason. I cant think of much else I would need for the < 300 meter ranges I will probably be dealing with in urban combat.

I wish I could take my own rifle into action...I would get chrome everything on the inside. Do you know if its possible to at least bring your own equipment to refit the rifle they issue to you? If so, I would purchase some things I have seen online, like some chrome bolt carriers and other parts offered...I wish I remembered the link to that site to show you.

Also do you know if you are allowed to bring your own side arm? Or to bring back "trophy" stuff? People have told me its policy that you cant, but I am guessing if you have a combat arms CO, he will conveniently overlook things as long as you dont get caught.

Also any opinion on the grendel 6.5mm?

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:15:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Voltron:
I bought a...well it has m16a2 stamped on the lower reciever







I hope you did all the NFA paperwork on that.


Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:19:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 12:21:10 PM EDT by WitchDoctor02]



I wish I could take my own rifle into action...I would get chrome everything on the inside. Do you know if its possible to at least bring your own equipment to refit the rifle they issue to you? If so, I would purchase some things I have seen online, like some chrome bolt carriers and other parts offered...I wish I remembered the link to that site to show you.

Also do you know if you are allowed to bring your own side arm? Or to bring back "trophy" stuff? People have told me its policy that you cant, but I am guessing if you have a combat arms CO, he will conveniently overlook things as long as you dont get caught.





Don't modify the guts of your service weapon, your unit armourer will take care of that stuff, and service weapons, especially in the infantry, are only as fucked up as the person who carries it - seriously.

As for the sidearm, no, and don't try to bring one - depending on your role in your company or platoon, you will be given a sidearm. Of course, most don't get one and that sucks, but still, don't bring your own.

It is true that you can find those things in the field, but those situations generally don't end well for lower enlisted. We managed to get several pistols, AKs, mortar tubes and bases, an RPK, and some other shit, but we were just trying to get it off the streets. We destroyed most of it and the unit kept a couple of things for display.

Infantry doesn't get cut any slack by COs, customs or MPs for contraband weapons, so don't rely on that - stick to little things like bayonets and memories - you'll be happy enough to come back home alive
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:26:16 PM EDT
Voltron, you need to relax on the rifle options. I know you are excited to get into the fight and want to use all this high speed stuff to conquer the world, but just relax a bit. First off, you need to make it through recruit training. After SOI you will be assigned to your unit(are you combat arms??) at which point you can ready for a deployment to the sandbox. The Anbar province is no picnic so please listen to your NCO's and heed their advice. You won't be bringing your personal weapons and you won't be able to illegally mod your weapon. Your fire team leader or squad leader will designate what you carry and how you deploy that weapon. Don't be so eager to fire off a round- it has lasting effects.

Before you decide to turn your young flamethrower on, this is all advice from me- I just retired after 20 years in the beloved Corps. I can list my credentials if it makes you feel better. Just relax a bit- they will set you up for survival.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:26:35 PM EDT
hat
I was also going to bring some dragonskin body armor, which I saw a video of, it stopped 20 rounds of 7.62mm from 20 feet. Then another 190 rounds of 9mm from and MP5. Good shit!!!

But I have read the ARMY banned the use of anything but issued armor....WTF. I hope the marine corps doesnt have the same policy. Dragonskin is obviously superior to interceptor armor.

Does anyone know if the marine corps armorers do any special work on the rifles? I trust they know what they are doing, I just know they have a budget they have to work with. It would be nice if you could bring in some stuff for them to work into your rifle to make it more reliable, or accurate, or something like that.

Sorry if I am asking a bunch of questions or have crazy ideas :)

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:27:58 PM EDT
Oh and as far as NFA paperwork....whats that? I just walked into the store, showed my drivers license and mentioned I was active duty Air Force and walked out about 15 minutes later with a rifle....I did fill out some form...I guess that was the paperwork? It was just 2 pages.

I wont be robbing any banks or anything :) Dont worry

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:32:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Voltron:
I bought a...well it has m16a2 stamped on the lower reciever and the upper reciever looks like....I dont know what to call it, but heres a description.

Flat top / 16 inch Heavy chrome lined barrel / retractable stock / eotech sight NV capable

I ordered a new handgaurd with rails on it so I could mount extras as needed, and also some flip up front and rear sights in case the eotech holosight isnt working for some reason. I cant think of much else I would need for the < 300 meter ranges I will probably be dealing with in urban combat.

I wish I could take my own rifle into action...I would get chrome everything on the inside. Do you know if its possible to at least bring your own equipment to refit the rifle they issue to you? If so, I would purchase some things I have seen online, like some chrome bolt carriers and other parts offered...I wish I remembered the link to that site to show you.

Also do you know if you are allowed to bring your own side arm? Or to bring back "trophy" stuff? People have told me its policy that you cant, but I am guessing if you have a combat arms CO, he will conveniently overlook things as long as you dont get caught.

Also any opinion on the grendel 6.5mm?




It sounds like you have what is equivalent to the M4/M16A4. The M4/M16A4 actually has a 14.5" Barrel and the M16A2 has a 20" Barrel. Stay away from shinny stuff. Keep it simple. Most Unit Commanders probably won't care what you do to your rifle as long as you are not taking the whole thing apart. You should have no problems with the items I mentioned above and what WitchDoctor wrote. Make sure your EOTech is NV compatible. You will only need the Back-up rear sight becasue you won't be able to take the fixed front sight out. Also + 1 for the side mounted weaponlight instead of the Vertical Foregrip one. I'm in Law Enforcement now and I have the Pentagon light which I believe is125 lumens. I also have the A.R.M.S.® #23™ Quick Detach Throw Lever Pistol Grip, which I attach the pressure switch.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:55:55 PM EDT
I kinda wanted to stay away from the forward pistol grips mounted on the handgaurd. I could see it creating problems during prone firing, or getting snagged on something. The more stuff sticking off the rifle I think the more heavy/impractical it becomes. I want to fit mine to be as effective as possible, but stay practical and light. No bipods, no 3 flashlights, 2 scopes, 3 laser pointers and all that for me lol.

Thanks alot for the info guys, I just like to know what to expect. I am very anxious to get out of the AF comm and into Marine infantry, it should be alot more fun and exciting. I have a great respect for the ground pounders, and I am anxious to become one despite the crap everyone talks about them being stupid or cannon fodder. Pussies! hock.gif
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:25:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Voltron:
But I have read the ARMY banned the use of anything but issued armor....WTF. I hope the marine corps doesnt have the same policy.


Dollars to donuts they do.


Dragonskin is obviously superior to interceptor armor.

Based on what testing?

What is your basis of comparison for this statement?

Will this 'Dragonskin' even live up to what the military requires of it's armor for day-to-day survivability and the required mobility of the troops?



Sorry if I am asking a bunch of questions or have crazy ideas :)


Instead of making comments about 'stopping power' or what a POS a paticular piece of kit is get some experience first. Worry about getting through basic training before deciding you want/need non-issue gear & weapons or if the armorer can somehow tweak the rifle for you.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:26:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Voltron:
I kinda wanted to stay away from the forward pistol grips mounted on the handgaurd. I could see it creating problems during prone firing, or getting snagged on something.
[/qutoe]
Hmm yeah like that magwell with the 30 round magazine is not going to do the same thing...
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:59:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:02:41 PM EDT by Voltron]
ntmid8r333 I appreciate your 20 years of service in the Marines, youre a badass :) I hope I can put in that many years too. Having almost served 4 years in the air force....I am ready for a branch with some brotherhood, gung ho attitude, and real tradition and all those intangibles that give a man pride with what he does. I havent felt it at all in the air force and am ready to get the hell out in August. Trade my blue for some marine green. I will take your advice and listen to my NCO's. Dont mistake my eagerness to be as prepared as possible for foolheartyness. I know I am no John Rambo :)

Forest, in response to your comments, there were a few so I will try to give an answer for each...

9mm service pistol. I spoke to some combat arms instructors and they tell me that they instruct people to shoot two body shots and a head shot. I also read many places that troops complain about having to use multiple shots to stop someone with the 9mm. This led me to believe that the 9mm is a weak round requiring multiple shots.

Dragonskin body armor I believe is in fact superior because unlike the interceptor armor which will stop a 7.62 on the ceramic plate only (and will break after a few hits) the dragonskin armor can stop 7.62 AP on the entire surface of the armor, front, back, sides, anywhere. Unlike the interceptor which only provides that kind of protection on the ceramic plates. Also the dragonskin armor does not crack after a few hits. I saw a video of it taking 20x7.62mm rounds from 20 feet and nothing penetrated. Also dragonskin does not crack if dropped, like the ceramic plates in interceptor armor. You should look into it, I think you will become a believer too :)

And in regards to me asking about modding my own weapon and doing all sorts of other stuff...one only finds out by asking, and so I am asking. Im not worried about making it through Marine boot camp....I am looking forward to it with some excitement, some fear, but very anxious :) I will be fine, Ive seen worse people make it through :)


I almost forgot...the pistol grip mounted on the handgaurd rail....I just dont see the need. I am comfortable just gripping the handgaurd. And Yes the 30 round magazine comes out a bit far and could snag on something, but having ammunition is kind of a neccesity for the proper function of the rifle, the extra pistol grip isnt. If I died because I got my unneccesary pistol grip caught on something....thats my fault in a way for putting that thing on there in the first place when I didnt need it. If I died because I got my neccesary 30 round mag caught on something, then thats just bad luck.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:15:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:21:38 PM EDT by WitchDoctor02]
About the M9 - having carried it most of my career, I can tell you it is very easy to shoot, which goes for a lot in my opinion. 9mm can be and is a very effective round in the hands of a well-trained soldier or Marine - placement is key, which the M9 facilitates very well for shooters of all sizes and experience - that's partially why the military chose it. However, the M9 mags are horrendous in the Iraqi desert. Myself and every person I worked with that carried an M9 had major problems with the mags - and we were all very disciplined about maintaining our weapon systems.

As for knockdown power, I've seen men take grenade blasts and mortar fire and not go down, and I've seen 9mm kill in one shot. Again, it just depends on placement - not so much the size of the weapon.


Originally Posted By Voltron:
I kinda wanted to stay away from the forward pistol grips mounted
on the handgaurd. I could see it creating problems during prone firing, or getting snagged on something. The more stuff sticking off the rifle I think the more heavy/impractical it becomes. I want to fit mine to be as effective as possible, but stay practical and light. No bipods, no 3 flashlights, 2 scopes, 3 laser pointers and all that for me lol.




You can certainly opt out of the vertical foregrip - it will reduce weight by a couple of ounces and it is one less thing to tangle. I like to use one, but I mount it as far back as the rail will allow. In mounting it far to the rear, close to the magazine well, you leave space ahead for prone shooting positions, sandbags, and windows -- when in a vehicle without armored glass, for example, you will likely want to point your weapon out in order to cover your side of the vehicle. I found that by positioning the vertical grip further back, it didn't get hung up or saddled on the door if I wanted to pull it back in faster. This is one of the little things that you will one day decide what's best for you.

Of course, before my M4, I always used an M16, which I found I liked to hold by the magazine well, close to the handguard, in much the same way I use the foregrip now. Again, matter of preference, but you may find this method to your liking in the absence of a vertical foregrip on an issue weapon.

In any case, ntmid8r333 and paulosantos make good points - all of this will come with experience. The infantry is different than any other kind of military occupation. Your training, NCOs, and units will take care of you and your education. Just go and leave any assumptions and opinions behind. And don't feel foolish for your questions! It's great that you're eager to take on this new challenge, especially these days - you will learn more than you can imagine and, if you go with an open willingness to learn and excel, your new friendships will be different than any other relationship.

As for the gear, that will work itself out, too. Enjoy!

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:20:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:23:38 PM EDT by simply_green]
Make it through boot camp. Then make it through SOI. Then go get trained up on your speciality, unless you're a 0311. Forget about everything that you are worrying about. If you make it the Marines in your unit will tell you what you need and what you don't need. Don't get wrapped up on the details or things that you cannot control and for God's sakes don't waste your money on anything that you may be issued in the future. The Corps will issue you what you need or your NCO's will recommend the good gear.

Air Force huh? Prepare yourself for culture shock.

ETA - Don't be the one bringing back "war trophys" - you will bring misfortune upon yourself and your fellow Marines.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:23:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:24:59 PM EDT by WitchDoctor02]

Originally Posted By simply_green:
... and for God's sakes don't waste your money on anything that you may be issued in the future. The Corps will issue you what you need or your NCO's will recommend the good gear.





I agree entirely
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:24:02 PM EDT
Replicate your service rifle exactly, as closely as the NFA allows (16" or longer barrel and semi only) so that all your shooting lessons carry over to each other. Do this even if you are issued a shitty stock and iron sights.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:24:18 PM EDT
Voltron: You are doing a good job of planning ahead. Keep asking questions until you are satisfied.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:26:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By paulosantos:
Voltron: You are doing a good job of planning ahead. Keep asking questions until you are satisfied.



Definitely agree
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:50:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Voltron:
I am joining the marines this August, infantry




You will carry what the Gunnery Sergeant gives you. No more, No less.

They will also teach you what you need to know and in my opinion, the USMC does a better job than the USA when it comes to gear (even though Marines whine about the Army having money, etc.)

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:53:50 PM EDT
Well if I had my 5 robot lions and a blazing sword, I wouldnt have to ask all these questions, but sadly I lost those somewhere. Just gonna have to rely on a rifle. Oh just to sidetrack for a second. I have been looking at pictures of rifles and everything ALL DAYYYY. Work is boring and I have the time. I refer to it as my rifle porn. The air force "free kills" I work with think its crazy.

I dont think I will be in for too much of a culture shock...I got that when I joined the Air Force...mistake!!!

Im not saying marine boot or infantry lifestyle will be easy...I actually worry about it because you could get hurt and messed up easily cause they do some crazy shit on the job. Even in training you could get hurt and kicked out :( But I felt it was my calling, and its better to try and do your best than to never try at all, and regret never doing it!

I guess youre all right about the weapon fit out, all up to personal preference and mission requirements. I normally hold my rifle by the magazine well, so thats my preference on that :)

Thats bad news that I cant bring my own pistol. I was really wanting to bring a 357 magnum haha. Damn I wish I had more money to buy all this stuff....damn gun porn makes me lust for all sorts of weapons. I want a 6.5mm grendel upper reciever too...sigh...

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:59:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:02:55 PM EDT by dxdgenert]

Originally Posted By ntmid8r333:
Voltron, you need to relax on the rifle options. I know you are excited to get into the fight and want to use all this high speed stuff to conquer the world, but just relax a bit. First off, you need to make it through recruit training. After SOI you will be assigned to your unit(are you combat arms??) at which point you can ready for a deployment to the sandbox. The Anbar province is no picnic so please listen to your NCO's and heed their advice. You won't be bringing your personal weapons and you won't be able to illegally mod your weapon. Your fire team leader or squad leader will designate what you carry and how you deploy that weapon. Don't be so eager to fire off a round- it has lasting effects.

Before you decide to turn your young flamethrower on, this is all advice from me- I just retired after 20 years in the beloved Corps. I can list my credentials if it makes you feel better. Just relax a bit- they will set you up for survival.


+1
Not Armed Forces but LEO... I understand your excitement but agree with some others that you are worrying about things that are beyond your control. You also have some HUGE misconceptions about what combat is going to be like... My best friend and roomate is doing his second stint in the secondbox as a Personal Security Detail leader/medic. Peopel die on both sides of the war, my friend. This is real life and not movies, TV or video games. It was a huge shock for him and really changed his life, as I'm sure it will do for you also. Believe what the others here are saying, you will get all of the gear that you need to be successful. Good luck and stay safe.
Now go get trained and become a Marine!
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:01:11 PM EDT
Sir Yes Sir!!! hahaha fuck I love that shit

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:28:35 PM EDT
all you need

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:43:06 PM EDT
:) "The deadliest weapon in the world, is a marine, and his rifle."

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:05:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Replicate your service rifle exactly, as closely as the NFA allows (16" or longer barrel and semi only) so that all your shooting lessons carry over to each other. Do this even if you are issued a shitty stock and iron sights.



Agreed 100%.

As for what's issue, chances are, unless you're something special...

M16A4, M5 RAS Kit, M68-CCO/TA31RCO-A4/or EoThing, PEQ-2A, and a Surefire M951C.

And if you think the IR is unneeded, you'll find yourself amazed when you get to use it. You can designate targets, aim your rifle, and illuminate the hell out of everything. It'll become one of your best friends.

How I'd outfit my rifle for MOUT is a little different than most, but is a moot (haha, get it) point in this circumstance. The NVEC Attila-200 is a superb IR setup, the Schmidt Bender Short Dot is the best GP optic on the market (IMHO), and the SF Scoutlight with the LU60A and FM63 filter does all the M951C can with a lot less weight. Don't get me started on mounts, stocks, barrels, or rail systems either.

BTW, do yourself a huge favor and pick up a good IFAK before you leave, and learn how to use it. The USMC issue one is damned nice, but there are some commercial ones that are a tad bit better.

Congrats on the enlistment, and be safe.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:08:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Voltron:
:) "The deadliest weapon in the world, is a marine, and his rifle."




You haven't met my wife and her frying pan !!
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:26:23 PM EDT
Thanks for the info capn crunch. I will look into all that stuff. Sounds like good gun porn :)

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