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Posted: 12/11/2003 4:03:58 AM EDT
I mean in practise, not in anger. Forgive the question, but I do not know anybody in the military. Also, I am not talking about spec. ops types, just average soldiers, USMC and Army. Is there an annual qualification? Is it difficult? I would like to shoot something similar to what the soldiers do just to see how I would do with iron sights.

Also, what about police? Does qualification vary much from department to department?

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:05:36 AM EDT
you must qualifiy every 6 months.( alot more range time in lite units) its pretty easy 50 to 300 meter pop up targets with 40rnds. with a min score of 26 to pass ( if i remember right.. i personally have never scored that low). i average 38 to 40 hits every time out.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:34:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By centermass69: you must qualifiy every 6 months.( alot more range time in lite units) its pretty easy 50 to 300 meter pop up targets with 40rnds. with a min score of 26 to pass ( if i remember right.. i personally have never scored that low). i average 38 to 40 hits every time out.
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Agreed, my first time at qualifing I scored a 37.(first time I ever held a M16) every time after that I was in the 38-40 range as well. For learing steady trigger pull we used to place a dime on the end of our barrel near the muzzle and dry-fire the weapon. Being that the dime is so light and being balanced on the barrel, when you pull the trigger, you should not knock the dime off the barrel. This teaches steady trigger pull. Enjoy!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:20:04 PM EDT
Every Marine is required to qualify at the rifle range every year, no exceptions. Cooks, drivers, grunts, pilots, everyone. I've been told by Army dudes that they never once saw a M-16 after bootcamp. Given the horror stories like the Jessica Lynch fiasco, I can believe it.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 3:08:11 PM EDT
When I got out of Basic, it was over a year before I shot it again. This isn’t to say I didn’t bring my M16 into the Field and keep it clean when we trained. And we went into the field every few weeks. But the problem of being in an Armor (M60 Tanks) battalion and not being a Tanker meant that I just didn’t shoot my rifle or shoot blank 5.56 all that often. All that changed when I went and got my Paratrooper wings. I figure I shot my M16 every other month or so. But figure this Factoid into the Equation; this year I have shot off more .223/5.56 rounds than I ever did in my entire Military career.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:00:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 4:33:33 PM EDT by mrcr0603]
Originally Posted By BobCole: Every Marine is required to qualify at the rifle range every year, no exceptions. Cooks, drivers, grunts, pilots, everyone.
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Every [s]Marine[/s] Soldier is required to qualify at the rifle range every year, no exceptions. Cooks, drivers, grunts, pilots, everyone. No different than OUR requirement. I'm now in my seventh (active-duty Army) unit, over a 20+ year time period, and I've [b]personally[/b] NEVER seen anyone in the units I've been in circumvent this minimum requirement. I wouldn't attempt to know what has happened to each and every other soldier out there.
I've been told by Army dudes that they never once saw a M-16 after bootcamp. Given the horror stories like the Jessica Lynch fiasco, I can believe it.
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Exactly opposite from what I've [i]personally[/i] observed while serving in the Army. I can't speak for the other 500,000+ soldiers on active duty, so I'm wondering .... HOW CAN [U]YOU[/U]? Is it possible that out of the hundreds of thousands of soldiers serving, that the qualification requirement wasn't met in some instances? Of course, and the Marines would be no different. Chris
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:18:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rhainan: I mean in practise, not in anger. Forgive the question, but I do not know anybody in the military. Also, I am not talking about spec. ops types, just average soldiers, USMC and Army. Is there an annual qualification? Is it difficult? I would like to shoot something similar to what the soldiers do just to see how I would do with iron sights. Thanks
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Within 30 days of your arrival to a new unit, you should be scheduled to zero and qualify so your weapon will be battlesight zeroed and "ready to go". After that qualification is an annual requirement. Units normally conduct a range of some sort every month. If you desire to shoot more than than once a year, make your leaders aware of it and it's too easy to get you out there to put rounds downrange. I've always had soldiers coming to each range besides their annual requirement, to get the extra practice, more points towards promotion, just wanting to shoot, etc. Whenever I run a range I make it a point to have ammo left over so we can get the range detail out on the firing line to shoot. Once word of this gets around, I don't have a problem finding volunteers to be on the Range Party. Chris
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:29:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mrcr0603:
Originally Posted By BobCole: Every Marine is required to qualify at the rifle range every year, no exceptions. Cooks, drivers, grunts, pilots, everyone.
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Every [s]Marine[/s] Soldier is required to qualify at the rifle range every year, no exceptions. Cooks, drivers, grunts, pilots, everyone. No different than OUR requirement. I'm now in my seventh (active-duty Army) unit, over a 20+ year time period, and I've personally NEVER seen anyone in the units I've been in circumvent this minimum requirement.
I've been told by Army dudes that they never once saw a M-16 after bootcamp. Given the horror stories like the Jessica Lynch fiasco, I can believe it.
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Exactly opposite from what I've [i]personally[/i] observed while serving in the Army. I can't speak for the other 500,000+ soldiers on active duty, so I'm wondering .... HOW CAN [U]YOU[/U]? Chris
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I can actual name a hand full of my friends who are FA officers who I know haven't shot in years. But I agree most I know do shot at least once a year.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:40:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN:
Originally Posted By mrcr0603:
Originally Posted By BobCole: Every Marine is required to qualify at the rifle range every year, no exceptions. Cooks, drivers, grunts, pilots, everyone.
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Every [s]Marine[/s] Soldier is required to qualify at the rifle range every year, no exceptions. Cooks, drivers, grunts, pilots, everyone. No different than OUR requirement. I'm now in my seventh (active-duty Army) unit, over a 20+ year time period, and I've personally NEVER seen anyone in the units I've been in circumvent this minimum requirement.
I've been told by Army dudes that they never once saw a M-16 after bootcamp. Given the horror stories like the Jessica Lynch fiasco, I can believe it.
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Exactly opposite from what I've [i]personally[/i] observed while serving in the Army. I can't speak for the other 500,000+ soldiers on active duty, so I'm wondering .... HOW CAN [U]YOU[/U]? Chris
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I can actual name a hand full of my friends who are FA officers who I know haven't shot in years. But I agree most I know do shot at least once a year.
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I get what you're saying, and I'll say this .... I GUARANTEE that I can ask a Marine Senior NCO one-on-one and he'll be able to say the same thing as you about other Marines. Chris
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:44:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: I can actual name a hand full of my friends who are FA officers who I know haven't shot in years.
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Any reasons in particular as to why they haven't went to the range? Chris
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:47:05 PM EDT
Because Marine on B billets (non-FMF tours like recruiting, etc) aren't required to qual at all. Also SNCOs GySgts or above, Marines company grade officers with over 11 years in or field grade officer are not required to qual annually with a rifle, we still have to qual with our pistol. With the future adoption of the M4 for most officers and SNCO, that may be changing.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:52:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: Because Marine on B billets (non-FMF tours like recruiting, etc) aren't required to qual at all. Also SNCOs GySgts or above, Marines company grade officers with over 11 years in or field grade officer are not required to qual annually with a rifle, we still have to qual with our pistol. With the future adoption of the M4 for most officers and SNCO, that may be changing.
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Sounds online with what I've seen on my side of the neighborhood .... thanks for the info. Chris
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:52:52 PM EDT
They were in a TRADOC, I believe it was called TAD or TDA unit.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:08:33 PM EDT
I thing I did notice when the clerks down stair went to qual one year and I went and shot with them. The range for them was allot different than when we assign someone to the range. They went to their arms room got issued a weapon they never saw before (it didn't belong to them), BZOed and than fired their 40 round qual course, nothing more than that. When you get sent to qual in the fleet it is a two week process, the first week is grass week in which you snap in for at least a half a day ever day of the week and in some cases shoot the course of fire in the ISMT-E every day that week (by the order they are technically suppose to snap in all day but that never happens.) The next week you go to shoot, the first day is when you do all your zeros etc. The second day you shoot the course of fire (now you are allowed to declare any day after the first), if you don't decide to qual you continue to shoot the course of fire till Thursday which is your qual day. Every morning during the process they inspect your weapon to make sure you cleaned it etc. After qual you go to night fire to shoot a couple of mags at 200m under 203mm illum. Than Friday you shoot phase 3 in which in full gear you shoot with your mask on, multiple targets, moving targets, shoot from the move, transition to different positions perform tactical reloads and shoot from week sided.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:41:05 PM EDT
I spent 4 years in the Army and the only time I qualified with an M16 was in boot camp. Only other times I touched one was when we had to do our annual training on how to disassemble an M16. I was a medic stationed at Fitzsimons Army Medical Center. We didn't have a range.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:47:04 PM EDT
You know that they shut down Fitzsimons Army Medical Center. CU bought out the building, and the rest of the old site has turned into a bussiness park.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:28:06 PM EDT
A friend in my department was in the Air Force. He told me that they qualify with M-16s but they fire the .22 long rifle conversion kit. They dont actually get to fire live 5.56 ammo. When I reflected upon my time in the Marines and how much ammo I fired just in boot camp, I nearly fell over when he told me that.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 11:53:19 PM EDT
I'm going to send shock waves through the Marines here but...During my time in the USMC (82-86) I was required to qualify exactly once with the M16A1. That was in Boot Camp. I can explain. It was explained to me and many other Marines like me that it cost too much to transport us to available ranges to qualify. I spent nearly my entire first year assigned to one training command or another including Parris Island, NAS Memphis, MCAS El Toro and NAS North Island. My second and thrid year were spent in Japan and the nearest ranges were on Okinawa. My fourth year was spent at a reserve base outside of Philadelphia. The nearest ranges were at Quantico. Because of this,each year the qualification requirment was waived. Since it was waived, I was given the benefit of a doubt and for cutting score was awarded points as if I had qualified expert. In those days, this was not an unusual occurance. I know several of the Marines I served with only qualified once during the entire time they were in. After Boot Camp, the only time I ever touched another M16 was in 1985 at MCAS Iwakuni when I was assigned to the drill team for the AG's inspection.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:12:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: I'm going to send shock waves through the Marines here but...During my time in the USMC (82-86) I was required to qualify exactly once with the M16A1. That was in Boot Camp. I can explain. It was explained to me and many other Marines like me that it cost too much to transport us to available ranges to qualify. I spent nearly my entire first year assigned to one training command or another including Parris Island, NAS Memphis, MCAS El Toro and NAS North Island. My second and thrid year were spent in Japan and the nearest ranges were on Okinawa. My fourth year was spent at a reserve base outside of Philadelphia. The nearest ranges were at Quantico. Because of this,each year the qualification requirment was waived. Since it was waived, I was given the benefit of a doubt and for cutting score was awarded points as if I had qualified expert. In those days, this was not an unusual occurance. I know several of the Marines I served with only qualified once during the entire time they were in. After Boot Camp, the only time I ever touched another M16 was in 1985 at MCAS Iwakuni when I was assigned to the drill team for the AG's inspection.
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And now you can see why Marines from the division look at the wing as being different than us.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 7:21:32 AM EDT
One thing a lot of soldiers seem unaware of is the fact that the Army has several rifle qualification courses in addition to the 'pop ups'. There is a 300 meter KD course on paper targets and the infamous 25 meter reduced target course, which is shot on mini-targets at a pistol range when a rifle range is not readily available.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:05:02 PM EDT
Another reason why you should get out of those leg units.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:15:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 5:18:46 PM EDT by BobCole]
Originally Posted By mrcr0603: I'm now in my seventh (active-duty Army) unit, over a 20+ year time period, and I've [b]personally[/b] NEVER seen anyone in the units I've been in circumvent this minimum requirement. [blue]Then perhaps you haven't looked too hard?[/blue] Exactly opposite from what I've [i]personally[/i] observed while serving in the Army. [blue]Then you need to read some after-action reports. Report after report by Army support personnel speak of troops not cleaning, maintaining or knowing how to properly operate their rifles. Again the Lynch fiasco is a perfect example & I notice you skipped right over that.[/blue] I can't speak for the other 500,000+ soldiers on active duty, so I'm wondering .... HOW CAN [U]YOU[/U]? [blue]Please show where I "spoke" for all you dogfaces?[/blue] Of course, and the Marines would be no different. [blue]On the contrary, the Marines are a LOT different. That's why we're Marines.[/blue]
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Link Posted: 12/12/2003 7:20:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PhillipKP: Another reason why you should get out of those leg units.
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Now you know why I did so.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 7:57:42 PM EDT
[:X*] I all ways just wished the cooks could cook !!! Hell if they cooked good we watched after them they didn't need guns. The others we just sent down river in there sleep with no gun. Any way I was at the range so much I didn't need to go. Just picked my best day. 175 ponds of twisted steel spit shined boots and sex appeal.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:45:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 10:24:55 PM EDT by mrcr0603]
Originally Posted By BobCole:
Originally Posted By mrcr0603: I'm now in my seventh (active-duty Army) unit, over a 20+ year time period, and I've [b]personally[/b] NEVER seen anyone in the units I've been in circumvent this minimum requirement. [blue]Then perhaps you haven't looked too hard?[/blue]
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I stated [b]"IN THE UNITS I'VE BEEN IN"[/b], as in company-sized organizations. What part of that don’t you understand? Don't bother twisting that any further, it's broken down as far as it will go.
Exactly opposite from what I've [i]personally[/i] observed while serving in the Army. [blue]Then you need to read some after-action reports. Report after report by Army support personnel speak of troops not cleaning, maintaining or knowing how to properly operate their rifles. Again the Lynch fiasco is a perfect example & I notice you skipped right over that.[/blue]
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Read the AAR? I’m talking about MY [u]PERSONAL[/U] experiences. In MY units, WE PROPERLY MAINTAINED OUR WEAPONS. Got NOTHING to do with the “Lynch fiasco”. I train MY soldiers to properly operate and maintain their weapons, which is my concern that I'm focused on, MY soldiers and MY unit. I'm not going to speak of the "Lynch fiasco" because I don't have first-hand knowledge of it. But I will say this .... the 507th Maintenance Company was just that, ONE COMPANY among HUNDREDS of Army companies involved in OIF. To take what happened to that ONE unit and apply is ACROSS THE ENTIRE ARMY is ignorant and just plain WRONG.
I can't speak for the other 500,000+ soldiers on active duty, so I'm wondering .... HOW CAN [U]YOU[/U]? [blue]Please show where I "spoke" for all you dogfaces?[/blue]
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By making your statement about the Army.
Of course, and the Marines would be no different. [blue]On the contrary, the Marines are a LOT different. That's why we're Marines.[/blue]
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I was referring to annual qualification. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The two statements in your original post have been further addressed by the responses in this thread, but here's a summary anyway .... The first statement in your original post:
Every Marine is required to qualify at the rifle range every year, no exceptions. Cooks, drivers, grunts, pilots, everyone.
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.... suggested that ALL Marines ACTUALLY qualify (as in SHOOT) yearly, whereas Soldiers DON'T. The fact that I pointed out is soldiers are also required to qualify annually. Are there exceptions to this? Yes, in the Army, AND it seems in the Marines too, as seen by the responses in this thread. As for the second statement in your original post:
I've been told by Army dudes that they never once saw a M-16 after bootcamp. Given the horror stories like the Jessica Lynch fiasco, I can believe it.
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I respect each and every individual serving, or have served, in the U.S. military, regardless of branch. Anytime something negative is said about the Army, I tend to address it. So simply, I considered your statement a cheap-ass shot, which I addressed. Chris
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:17:41 PM EDT
The Marines are just Sea Going Bellhops. :) And ARMY stands for Aint Ready for the Marines Yet. Seriously gyus this has become stoopied. :)
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:51:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MarineSniper8541: A friend in my department was in the Air Force. He told me that they qualify with M-16s but they fire the .22 long rifle conversion kit. They dont actually get to fire live 5.56 ammo. When I reflected upon my time in the Marines and how much ammo I fired just in boot camp, I nearly fell over when he told me that.
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Say what? Are you serious? Not here. I qualified on the M-16A2 and the M-9, with no conversions on either to speak of. I have never heard of this at Lackland, which of course was his boot camp (everyone's). When was this? I guess for all branches, it of course depends on your duty requirements, and especially if you're up for deployment.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 1:47:09 AM EDT
I have been an active duty soldier for 9 years now. Anyways, all soldiers are required to qualify with their assigned weapon once a year. That could be an M16A2, an M4, or even an M9. Even people that work is remote locations like staff jobs in DC, recruiters, etc are still supposed to shoot at least once a year. Officers are ussaully a different sheet of music. Once they hit Major or above, they are ussually desk bound. Most places try to have you shoot more often. My old unit (112th Signal Battalion) at Fort Bragg, you went to the range at least 4 times a year in garrison. When deployed, it varied. Some deployments every week, others not at all. I know 82nd Airborne, a soldier is supposed to go to the range in some form at least one a month. The type of range you go to varies- My old unit at Ft.Bragg, it was nothing but 18 rds to zero, 40 to qualify. IF there was ammo left over, you might be able to qualify again. During deployments, we supported SF so it was different. My current unit is also different. My current unit, where I work as a radio operator in an SF battalion it varies. The average is once a week. Every quarter, we try to go shoot for a week or two straight. Everything from zero and qual on our M4A1s, to crew served, to shooting the LAW and AT4. The rest of the time, we try to go every week to shoot CQB and close range type shooting. During deployments it varies also. Some we dont shoot at all, others we do nothing but shoot (and radio watch).
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 2:13:53 PM EDT
I served in the active army for nine years from 1975 to 1984 and have been in the Virginia National Guard since 1990. During my career, and while assigned to two Infantry units (1 Active / 1 National Guard), all members were required to qualify once a year, per Army standard. While active we shot every other week, while a reservest only once a year.Also during my career I have served in two support units, again 1 active and 1 National Guard, again all members were required to qualify once a year, per Army standard. Due to budgetary constraints beyond our control, unless your in one of these HIGH SPEED units, that is all most units are allowed. We do'nt write the regulations we just abide by them. And I do wish we were could spend two weeks every year on the rifle range like the Marines, maybe our percentage of GO's on the range would increase, but I guess if some of the FORMER MARINES in my NG unit could shoot than maybe that would increase our percentages also. Oh I'm sorry! Its the shitty rifles or the shitty ammo, No!, thats right its the shitty realistic pop up targets that fall after a reasonable engagement time. Remember "Every Marine is a rifleman"
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 3:08:15 PM EDT
Heres a soldier getting some live target practice. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm Warning: might be too graphic for some This was posted on some thread in mike malloy. As usual the libs didnt show or care about the rest of the story. Can anyone guess the range?
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 3:43:44 PM EDT
Enfield Your going to find poor shooters in ever service. A guy wearing a pizza box is going to shoot poorly no matter if he exchanges his Marine uniform for an army one. Having shot the SLR, KD, B Mod and the army pop up course I wouldn't say any of them is that combat oriented. If you take average shooter from either organization and subject them to the others services qual course, you will find quite a few go uniq on both sides. If you take TO/E riflemen from either service and have them do the same thing you will find something a little different since those riflemen in the Marine Corps have probable about the same amount of time on a pop up course as their army brethren, however it's not the same way on the other side. Very few have experience on a course like the SLR or KD. The phrase "Every Marine a Riflemen" has very little to do with rifle shooting, but instead that every Marine attends an infantry training course, in the case of non-infantry Marines they attend MCT for a infantry training package, in which they learn basic riflemen skills such as weapons employment, demolitions, patrolling, IADs, etc. In the case of officers The 6th month long, Basic School in which they receive training on how to be provisional infantry platoon commanders.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 9:52:36 AM EDT
During my stint with the Army(90-94)as a rifleman with a mechanized infantry unit we had the benefit of a squad leader who owned property off-base. He had it set up for 200 - 300 - 600 & 1000 yrd firing. We all pinched in and made 10 firing holes with optional bench. It was nice. Our commander allowed us and hisself included to fire on the range every weekend if we wanted. We supplied our own ammunition and hence, fired between 300 - 400 rds per week. It was fun, and of course, the end result was the formation of a rifle team. We compted nationally for two years! Today, I still fire on a weekly basis with a 16" OlyArms PCR-02. The 4116 SS barrel combined with quality forged upper and lower with NAtional match trigger and sights give me consistent 1" - 4" MOAs!!
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 10:33:37 AM EDT
When I was in the ARNG,the thing I hated the most was after I cleaned my 60,my wimp ass kissing Plt Sgt would volunteer us to clean the officer's M-16s,we through a bitch fit,but cleaned them anyway."Somehow"this got the attention of the Btn.Commander,he was pissed,and told the rest of the upstairs gang,"you shoot it,you clean it"! Great thing about going to the range,SgtMaj found out I had an AR (prev.owned by a Marine at Camp Pendleton,a Colt A2 with a1 sights)after we all were done, he gave me 1000 rds of prime Lake City!
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 2:25:53 PM EDT
Depends on the job. as 11B, (about as non-special ops as you get) leg infantry, we fired all the time!(not just M16) as a Safety NCO and instructor at FT. Benning, 6 days a week during certain phases of traing cycles was not unusual.(some firing done was on personal time, but Uncle Sam paid for the ammo... gotta stay sharp!) as far as as how easy or who could do it... well, lets just say a 3 legged dog with one blind eye could qualify as marksman.. with the proper motivation.
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 4:12:25 PM EDT
I was 11H and I shot a lot.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:09:50 AM EDT
I'm on active duty in the Air Force and back in the early 80's the AF did use .22 conversion kits. However, when I entered in 1989, they were long gone. We now qualify every 30 months with the M16. Now, certain AFSC's (Air Force Specialty Codes) qualify every 6 months. I've been to the desert 3 times in the past 2 years. Once with no weapon, once with an M16A2 and M9 and once with M16 (not A1 or A2) and M9. The most recent deployment to Iraq I had an old M16 with chrome bolt carrier and a new M9. I have some pics at the following sites: www.airfieldops.com www.gungrabber.com
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:22:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 10:37:12 AM EDT by Offspring]
You know that they shut down Fitzsimons Army Medical Center. CU bought out the building, and the rest of the old site has turned into a bussiness park.
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Yeah, I was the last medic to work at Fitzsimons. Left in the Spring of '99 when we closed the TMC. Edited to add: We were a non-deployable unit anyway. I am sure if we had facilities a little closer we would have qualified with weapons. A few select soldiers got to go to Ft.Carson every year... With us being a BRAC site, personell were levels were low, so the job at hand came first.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:45:12 AM EDT
Just the other night on the Armed Forces channel we have on cable here I watched video of a signal unit thats about to deploy to Iraq. They were practicing "counter-ambush" by lining a row of Hummers up and shooting at pop up targets....WHILE STATIONARY. The unit commander admitted it was probably the 1st time his people had shot beyond a qualification. Then the announcer proudly mentioned that all targets were hit at least once...from once again, STATIONARY vehicles. [shock]
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