I am seriously considering getting a suppressor for my soon to be acquired Bushy M4.  I was just wondering how loud the 16" barrel would be with a suppressor.  Since the .223 bullet travels faster than the speed of sound, it will still make a loud crack when it breaks the sound barrier.  Any real life experience would be great.  Also who makes the most durable suppressor?  I will need one that will last a while as I will probably fire 200-300 rounds a month through it.

Thanks,
Wes

SureFire makes the best as far as I know but it's still LEO and military. They did a cool segment on Mail call

Quoted: SureFire makes the best as far as I know

You're sorely misinformed.  

A good suppressor like a Gemtech or SWR will reduce the sound below bullet flight noise, so you don't need hearing protection to shoot.  

No need to look any farther....the best my friend
I have never heard of a better supressor.

Think .22 lr

I would use sub-sonic ammunition with a suppressor.

opsinc.us/video.php

Listen for yourself, much of what is heard is the sound of the bullets hitting the backstop down range.

Quoted: No need to look any farther....the best my friend I have never heard of a better supressor.

Well, not exactly true..and Mr. Brittingham's customer service leaves a bit to be desired.  As for the opsinc thing, the sound clips aren't accurate representations of what a can sounds like.  The preamp in a camcorder cuts out at about 90dB, and the quietest .22 rifle suppressors are louder than that.

The OpsInc is a very well made product... I am a huge fan of the Reflex cans though, for what  they are made for -- The zero maintenance, last forever cans may be a *tad* bit louder, but the weigth, length and not having to have icecream machine grease is a plus.

The noise of supersonic ammo sounds more like a crack... I guess think of slapping two pieces of 2X4 together? The radial noise is certainly noticable, but to the shooter it is not at all bad...

I wish that they would relax the regulations of sound moderators... I think the proofing standard is one of the big hurdles, but...

Quoted: SureFire makes the best as far as I know but it's still LEO and military. They did a cool segment on Mail call

Quoted: I would use sub-sonic ammunition with a suppressor.

Then you should just buy a .22 and suppress it.  No real point in buying an expensive 5.56 can and running it with subsonic ammo.  That is, if you care about ballistics.

Well, I shot my M16 yesterday with my new SRT Hurricane suppressor, so I guess that I can give you a good estimation. It is NOT quite as loud as a high-velocity .22LR. I definitely did not have to wear hearing protection. Unsuppressed, it will ring your ears something terrible. But remember, there is no such thing as "Hollywood quiet" when it comes to a full-power .223 round. If you want to shoot a .223 and have no one hear it, you will be sadly disappointed. Now, on the other hand, subsonic rounds will probably make a nice impression.

Check out the 17 model .223 suppressor shootout in Special Weapons Of Military & Police HERE.

Quoted: The OpsInc is a very well made product... I am a huge fan of the Reflex cans though, for what  they are made for -- The zero maintenance, last forever cans may be a *tad* bit louder, but the weigth, length and not having to have icecream machine grease is a plus.

You don't grease centerfire rifle cans..just pistol cans.

I'm the last month, I've shot an AMU 18" M16 with a suppressor, and a SPR with the OPSINC reflex can.    Ammo was the special contract 77gr (Mk262--something) and some commercial BH75gr.

Both were quiet enough that earpro was not required if you were 10-15' away from the gun (uprange, anyway...).    I'd want ears in while shooting, but it would be a precautionary measure, not a mandatory measure to avoid lots of pain.

FWIW, on neither gun did I hear a "crack" with the normal supersonic ammo we were shooting.   I hear the SWOOSH of the suppressed report and the target impact sound.

-z

Quoted: Quoted: The OpsInc is a very well made product... I am a huge fan of the Reflex cans though, for what  they are made for -- The zero maintenance, last forever cans may be a *tad* bit louder, but the weigth, length and not having to have icecream machine grease is a plus. You don't grease centerfire rifle cans..just pistol cans.

really... well we'll just keep that your little secret then...

Quoted: SureFire makes the best as far as I know but it's still LEO and military. They did a cool segment on Mail call

Word on the street is that they're crap.

Human nature is to want what one can't have.

How loud is an AR15 suppressor. I don’t know. But let me tell you what I have experienced.

I have a friend that owns a Bowers 9mm suppressor for the M11 SMG.

The suppressor is a 9mm can that  was not designed for AR15 in 5.56. My friend bought adaptor that allows the suppressor to be threaded on an AR15 after the flash hider has been removed.
The adapter is threaded ½ x28 and other side threaded for the M11 suppressor.

I thought this is going to be loud! A 9mm suppressor on the AR15 5.56 this is not going to work!

He put about 5cc of water in the back of the suppressor then placed the suppressor on the AR15 and shot about 20 rounds through it.

WOW! I was very surprised on how quiet it was with no earplugs. I was standing right next to him and I was comfortable with no hearing protection.

That made me think if the Bowers 9mm suppressor can do this good of a job.

Then what would a real 5.56 suppressor do?

After that day I was sold on getting a suppressor for my AR15.

I had read every article I could.  On any 5.56 suppressor to help me narrow down decision.

This is what I wanted.

1. I wanted a suppressor that was quick detachable.

2. A suppressor that was known to be a workhorse and had reputation taking full auto fire.

3. A suppressor that was known for its good sound suppression.  


At the time I liked these 3 suppressors.

1. American Manufacturing triple X warrior suppressor.

2. Gemtechs M4-96D suppressor

3. Advance Armament’s. M4-2000

American Manufacturing

The triple x warrior was very appealing. The suppressor is inexpensive and had the reputation of taking full auto fire. But I wanted something that was quick detachable and something with a little better sound reduction.

Gemtech’s M4-96D  
I was very close in buying this suppressor. The suppressor has very good reputation of being a workhorse under full auto fire and is known for a good sound reduction. But the bi-lock had a history of seizing up after shooting which it makes it little hard to take off.

Advance Armament

M4-2000 has very good sound reduction, known to be tough under full auto fire and has quick detach flash hider that didn’t bind up after shooting.

I ordered M4 2000 suppressor back in April from my dealer. But my M4-2000 has not yet arrived at my dealer. Advance Armament is very slow making there suppressor and I heard bad things about their customer service.

Quoted: Gemtech’s M4-96D   But the bi-lock had a history of seizing up after shooting which it makes it little hard to take off.

I believe it has been said many times around here that the problem has been all but eliminated, so it is no longer a concern in the new generations of Gemtechs.  SWR also uses the same bi-lock attachments for use with their 5.56mm cans.

Damn do I SO live in the wrong state!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers to you lucky buggers

Quoted: Firing an M4 with subsonic ammo and a GemTech muzzle can you will be able to hear the buffer spring compress.

What type of subsonic ammo would you use?

I know the hammer subsonic 7.62X39 ammo  has enough energy to cycle the action on a 7.62X39 M4, but I don't know of any subsonic 5.56 that would have enough energy to work the action on the M4.

Do you have more info on this?

Its kind of hard to describe.  Its not quite like a movie or something.  I know they can be heard up to and possibly beyond 1/4 mile, but the person at 1/4 of a mile said it sounds like a limb falling out of a tree way off somewhere and had no idea it was a gunshot.  I have heard some people describe the sound as similar to a 22 mag.

In person it almost sounds like a big poof sort of sound.  I don't know if this helps, but a regular AR is about 160dB and the suppressor makes it like in the 130's.  A regular pellet rifle is around 100dB.  

Its still loud, but no where near as offensive as without the can.  


Oh,  I have a Gemtech M4-96D and Phil Daters customer service is second to none.  

I have shot and observed both Gemtech and SWR. The SWR is amazingly quiet, using the same ammo. Either can be fired in a suburban back-yard. The round remains sonic, but usually (IME) only those along the flight path hear it. A few tens of meters away and no-one should, but I have not stood downrange at varying distances from the LOF to check this theorem.

I've seen both Gemtech and SWR 9mm cans fired repeatedly at monthly shoots w/o problems. You get what you pay for. Don't skimp.

Quoted: I have shot and observed both Gemtech and SWR. The SWR is amazingly quiet, using the same ammo. Either can be fired in a suburban back-yard. The round remains sonic, but usually (IME) only those along the flight path hear it. A few tens of meters away and no-one should, but I have not stood downrange at varying distances from the LOF to check this theorem. .

I have....  

The crack is nondirectional, meaning it's very difficult to localize where it came from.  You can hear it a long way off, but it doesn't always sound like a shot due to the lack of accompanying muzzle blast.

Quoted: The crack is nondirectional, meaning it's very difficult to localize where it came from.  You can hear it a long way off, but it doesn't always sound like a shot due to the lack of accompanying muzzle blast.

Actually it is directional and travels 90 degrees from the source, which is the flight path. So if you are the target, it is hard to figure out where it came from. But if you are along the flight path, it is easy.

To me, the overwhelming sound from a decently suppressed M16 is the sonic crack, not the muzzle blast.

Quoted: Quoted: The crack is nondirectional, meaning it's very difficult to localize where it came from.  You can hear it a long way off, but it doesn't always sound like a shot due to the lack of accompanying muzzle blast. Actually it is directional and travels 90 degrees from the source, which is the flight path. So if you are the target, it is hard to figure out where it came from. But if you are along the flight path, it is easy. .

It's nondirectional in the sense that it's a moving source of sound, rather than a point source like a muzzle blast.  And actually, being along the flight path is the most difficult area to locate the shooter from.  The only area of certain location is if you are BEHIND the shooter when the shot is fired.  There are charts available in the SOTIC sniper manual that show the study results of this phenomenon.

Quoted: Its kind of hard to describe.  Its not quite like a movie or something.  I know they can be heard up to and possibly beyond 1/4 mile.

Exactly. My .223 suppressor is one of the quietest on the market, and I guarantee that my neighbors 200 yards to either side of my home could hear it if they were outdoors.

I don't know if this helps, but a regular AR is about 160dB and the suppressor makes it like in the 130's.  A regular pellet rifle is around 100dB.

My suppressor with Lake City XM193 (which I use) is supposed to reduce the SPL to 129-130 dB. A Crossman 1377 pelletgun reads 120-123 dB.  

It's still loud, but no where near as offensive as without the can.

I agree with that statement fully. I had my wife's stepfather fire my M16 both suppressed and unsuppressed while I stood 20 yards to the rear. The difference was very great. Unsuppressed it will ring your ears.

Fire a gun with  a muzzlebrake and no protection and you will get a headache after one shot. Always wear hearing protectors.

I hate Federal gun laws!

I'd love to shoot with a suppressor.

CRC

I would like to know who's silencer is the most accurate and makes the least noise. It would be great to have a few people with each of the different brands meet in one of the western states and try them out. Sure fire, OPS Inc. , Gemtec, and whatever other brands guys might have. Have it so they could be shot side by side and compared. Seems like no one has done this before. If anyone in the western states would like to do this send me an email. I can bring the OPS Inc stuff.
Ron
[email protected]

Quoted: I would like to know who's silencer is the most accurate and makes the least noise. It would be great to have a few people with each of the different brands meet in one of the western states and try them out. Sure fire, OPS Inc. , Gemtec, and whatever other brands guys might have. Have it so they could be shot side by side and compared. Seems like no one has done this before. If anyone in the western states would like to do this send me an email. I can bring the OPS Inc stuff. Ron [email protected]

It has been done, and scientifically, at Knob Creek in 2000(?).  "Most Accurate" would be hard to quantify, because a shittily mounted (i.e. not factory) mounted Gemtech on a standard AR barrel might shoot poorly, while a perfectly mounted Ops inc might shoot more accurately.  It doesn't prove anything, really.

As far as sound measurement goes, without proper measuring equipment and techniques, that comparison wouldn't mean anything either.  Do you have a precision SLM with the proper microphone and preamp, with a fast enough rise time?  If not, it's kind of pointless other than a "fun" exercise.

no idea
less louder that an UNsuppressed one

i heard that KAC and surefire are good ones

Quoted: no idea less louder that an UNsuppressed one i heard that KAC and surefire are good ones

So you posted to let us know that you don't know anything, but you heard some stuff?

Quoted: I would like to know who's silencer is the most accurate and makes the least noise. Have it so they could be shot side by side and compared. Seems like no one has done this before.

It's been done before. Al Paulson recently tested 17 models of .223 suppressors, not for accuracy but for sound pressure levels.

CLICK HERE.

Quite,


        You and a few others here really seem to know the suppressor biz.  Any recommendations for a .223 suppressor?  



Thanks,
Jeff

TripleX Can or soundtech silencers M can for the .223.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The OpsInc is a very well made product... I am a huge fan of the Reflex cans though, for what  they are made for -- The zero maintenance, last forever cans may be a *tad* bit louder, but the weigth, length and not having to have icecream machine grease is a plus. You don't grease centerfire rifle cans..just pistol cans. really... well we'll just keep that your little secret then...

A centerfire rifle wet can scares me.  Really.  

QuietShooter.
I was hoping for a seat of the pants test where guys could try the silencers on their own rifles while other people listen at different distances to judge the sound. We have all the sound measuring equipment. But the distance from the weapon is a variable that most do not take into consideration. If one silencer emits a higher frequency than the other, then as you get farther away the higher frequency sound will dissapate faster. Some silencers sound the same at the shooters position, but are much quieter when compared at 50 or 100 feet. I was looking for an excuse to burn up a bunch of ammo and see how some different brands worked in normal situations. I did not know that some brands need to be installed at the factory for best results.I guess that would make it hard to do the test I was hoping for.
Ron

Quoted: I can bring the OPS Inc stuff.

I'll bring the beer!  

coldblue/Dave Lutz is KAC's military liason & would probably be the authority to contact re: KAC's M4-QD suppressor. He posted a few months back that KAC was re-awarded a contract run after it substantially upgraded the baffle design on it to withstand substantial amounts of FA fire, around 8 mag dumps, I think. I also believe the new-design can's life was in excess of ~15K. The KAC mount seems to have a decent method of preventing carbon from jamming up the camming interface. There were reports of cans shooting downrange, but Col. Lutz has also mentioned that these incidences were due to users not engaging the redundancy slide latch.

I've heard it both ways - that Gemtech's can & cannot withstand FA fire to the same duration, but I don't have firsthand knowledge either way. Dr. Phil Dator also posted here a little while back that Gemtech has since incorporated an improved version of the bi-lock design (since .Jan '04) which mitigates carbon fouling.

I have a older AWC HRT. It makes my SPR sound like a .22 rimfire when firing  BH 77 gr.When I use TTI Armory sub sonic 55 gr. the rifle sounds like a BB gun.(won't cycle the action)

Quoted: I was hoping for a seat of the pants test where guys could try the silencers on their own rifles while other people listen at different distances to judge the sound.

Gunstock 2004

I have AAC's M4-2000 for my CAR-15. According to the Paulson(?) article, it tied with the ArmsTech for the most reduction, and has (according to the article) the best quick-mount.

It's my first (and so far only) suppressor, but it works great. Did a non-scientific test the other day. Put a digital recorder on the kitchen table, walk outside five paces & fire two shots of standard milspec 55-grain ball. To eliminate the sonic crack (on impact) from the equation, shot at a hillside about 600 yards away. Basic sequence: set recorder on table, hit "record" button, go out kitchen door (5 feet from table), walk five steps from door (now closed), load & fire two rounds; then come back in & shut off recorder.

When playing the recording, I was very surprised to hear that the shots themselves were MUCH quieter than the sound of the kitchen door shutting; and no, it wasn't slammed. Just the normal sound of a closing door. Combined with the fact that the door is like most kitchen doors, glass window on the top half, so it's not some "super-insulating" door or anything exotic; I was very impressed. Shooting full-load Q3131A 5.56 ammo five steps from my back door makes less detectable noise AT the door, than the sound of the door itself closing does. So I could sit on the back patio and shoot Bambi, and my wife at the sink would likely never even hear it; and would almost certainly never recognize it as a gunshot, much less a centerfire rifle gunshot.

I've never tried subsonic .223's, because I figure (as others have said here) that a subsonic .223 is very similar ballistically to a subsonic .22LR; and the .22's I shoot thru it cost 4 cents a round, whereas the only subsonic .223's I've priced were $1.25 a round. (Thirty-plus times more expensive...)

I do shoot a lot of .22LR's thru it with a Ciener kit, mostly Remington 38-grain subsonic HP's. With the suppressor with the subsonics, the loudest sound is literally the bolt cycling. I took a pigeon a couple weeks ago at 56 paces, and actually heard the bullet hit the bird; very unusual for a .22 on that small a target at that distance.

Using normal (supersonic) .22's with the suppressor, if shooting at my normal target 40 yards away, when the bullet impacts, the sonic crack makes it sound like a normal .22 rifle shot; although the sound originates from the target, instead of the gun muzzle.

I've got a Norrell integral-suppressed Ruger Mark 2 pistol being made up now; I suspect it'll be even more fun than the rifle suppressor.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The OpsInc is a very well made product... I am a huge fan of the Reflex cans though, for what  they are made for -- The zero maintenance, last forever cans may be a *tad* bit louder, but the weigth, length and not having to have icecream machine grease is a plus. You don't grease centerfire rifle cans..just pistol cans. really... well we'll just keep that your little secret then... A centerfire rifle wet can scares me.  Really.

Sure, with high pressure rounds it is not the norm, but to say that it is NOT done is wrong...

Quoted: I have AAC's M4-2000 for my CAR-15. According to the Paulson(?) article, it tied with the ArmsTech for the most reduction, and has (according to the article) the best quick-mount. It's my first (and so far only) suppressor, but it works great. Did a non-scientific test the other day. Put a digital recorder on the kitchen table, walk outside five paces & fire two shots of standard milspec 55-grain ball. To eliminate the sonic crack (on impact) from the equation, shot at a hillside about 600 yards away. Basic sequence: set recorder on table, hit "record" button, go out kitchen door (5 feet from table), walk five steps from door (now closed), load & fire two rounds; then come back in & shut off recorder. When playing the recording, I was very surprised to hear that the shots themselves were MUCH quieter than the sound of the kitchen door shutting; and no, it wasn't slammed. Just the normal sound of a closing door. Combined with the fact that the door is like most kitchen doors, glass window on the top half, so it's not some "super-insulating" door or anything exotic; I was very impressed. Shooting full-load Q3131A 5.56 ammo five steps from my back door makes less detectable noise AT the door, than the sound of the door itself closing does. So I could sit on the back patio and shoot Bambi, and my wife at the sink would likely never even hear it; and would almost certainly never recognize it as a gunshot, much less a centerfire rifle gunshot.

Ok...you're running into the same problem that OPS has with those recordings posted on their website.

Your recorder has several issues that are not giving you a realistic sound reproduction.  First, it has an automatic compressor/limiter that is going to reduce sounds above about 90-100dB down TO 90-100dB, so a JDAM going off outside your house is going to sound about the same level as a .223, because they're both above the compressor/limiter's ceiling.  Also, your microphone itself is probably not mechanically capable of handling sounds above about 120dB, so its element is being driven to its limit.  Once it reaches its limit, MORE sound isn't going to do anything to the output level.

For a simple and dramatic demonstration of this, take your camcorder outside and videotape yourself shooting a few rounds unsuppressed.  Notice how the shot, which is FAR louder than you talking, sounds like popcorn, not much louder than a loud shout?  That's because the recording system (mic, preamp, compressor/limiter, and recording device itself) CAN'T handle a 160dB sound, and therefore it chops off all the excess energy that it can't record anyway.

This is why sound recordings of suppressors are bullshit.  I think it's borderline deceptive advertising on OPS' part.

New_guy, email me -- you are not accepting IMs or emails

Quoted: Ok...you're running into the same problem that OPS has with those recordings posted on their website. Your recorder has several issues that are not giving you a realistic sound reproduction.  First, it has an automatic compressor/limiter that is going to reduce sounds above about 90-100dB down TO 90-100dB, so a JDAM going off outside your house is going to sound about the same level as a .223, because they're both above the compressor/limiter's ceiling.  Also, your microphone itself is probably not mechanically capable of handling sounds above about 120dB, so its element is being driven to its limit.  Once it reaches its limit, MORE sound isn't going to do anything to the output level. For a simple and dramatic demonstration of this, take your camcorder outside and videotape yourself shooting a few rounds unsuppressed.  Notice how the shot, which is FAR louder than you talking, sounds like popcorn, not much louder than a loud shout?  That's because the recording system (mic, preamp, compressor/limiter, and recording device itself) CAN'T handle a 160dB sound, and therefore it chops off all the excess energy that it can't record anyway. This is why sound recordings of suppressors are bullshit.  I think it's borderline deceptive advertising on OPS' part.

Could be true, but if the sound were at the "cutoff" level, wouldn't it be the loudest thing on playback...? (I did say up front it was "non-scientific"... )

Quoted: New_guy, email me -- you are not accepting IMs or emails

Edited my profile - IM's are now 'on'.

Ok here is my thoughts.

I am thinking of having one of my AR barrels threaded to standard colt threading to accept a gemtech 223 pirhnana.

my delimma is, that i have also wanted to suppress my ruger 22 pistol for a LONG time...much longer than i have even owned the AR.

So my question is...is there anything keeping my from having BOTH my AR barrel AND my ruger barrel threaded to the same standard 1/2x28 pitch, and swapping the 223 suppressor between the two guns???

Obviously the 223 suppressor will not be AS efficient as a true 22 rimfire suppressor on the 22 pistol...But i can imagine that it would still work pretty darn good, as 22 isnt super loud to begin with.

has anyone ever done this?? Is there any reason that i CANT do this??

Quoted: Ok here is my thoughts. I am thinking of having one of my AR barrels threaded to standard colt threading to accept a gemtech 223 pirhnana. my delimma is, that i have also wanted to suppress my ruger 22 pistol for a LONG time...much longer than i have even owned the AR. So my question is...is there anything keeping my from having BOTH my AR barrel AND my ruger barrel threaded to the same standard 1/2x28 pitch, and swapping the 223 suppressor between the two guns??? Obviously the 223 suppressor will not be AS efficient as a true 22 rimfire suppressor on the 22 pistol...But i can imagine that it would still work pretty darn good, as 22 isnt super loud to begin with. has anyone ever done this?? Is there any reason that i CANT do this??

You will get a lot of fouling in the .223 can when shooting rimfire ammo. It's probably a safe bet that most .223 supressors aren't able to be disassembled for cleaning. I have bought separate cans for .223 and .22LR.