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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/16/2006 2:28:12 PM EDT
I am taking my Les Baer M4 with a 16" barrel dog hunting this summer and can't wait. I just bought a new 6-18x50mm scope today. Until now I have used iron sites and or a freinds Aim Point and have been able to shoot between 1-1 1/2" MOA at 100yds without magnification but have not had the chance to really reach out with this gun since my range is limited to 100yds. I know guys are killing at over 600 + yds with the 24" varmit rifle in .223. I am real curious to see just how far I can hit with any consistincy with the 16". How far is your longest kill and with what Barrel lenght?

Just a side note since I know someone will say why use an M4 for long range? I built this rifle for patrol and training, and did not plan on using for long range (I also have a 700P in 7mm Rem Mag for reaching out) so I have no idea how it will shoot at that range with the short barrel. Any of you guys shoot the 16" out past 500yds? How does it hold up on accuracy or do I need to start building anouther varmit upper with a 24". I know it is garunteed to shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 but how bad will the barrel affect the long range.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 2:33:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 2:34:35 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 2:33:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 2:34:15 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 2:34:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 2:35:13 PM EDT by chris157c]
Depending on the barrel, I'd say between 475 yards to about 625 with enough accuracy to hit a man sized target consistently, and still be able to drop him...

But what do I konw? I just shoot at paper...

oops, i forgot you said scope... 625... maybe a hair further...
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:00:36 PM EDT
after a about 3 tries i managed to hit a steel 24'' plate at 750yrds with 16'' m4 upper and 4x scope
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:10:24 PM EDT
At least 1400 yards

LINKY
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:14:48 PM EDT
over the river and through the woods
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:22:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 3:23:13 PM EDT by DM1975]
I can consistantly hit at 800M with a 20" barrel, I have seen 14.5" get out to 800M also, My farthest with a 20" is 1046 shooting Mk262 Mod1 with an ACOG for glass. My farthest with other than an AR style rifle was a car in Iraq at 2000M with an M107, I have a picture if you wish to se it, but you wont be able to see the car I am affraid .
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:18:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 4:18:36 PM EDT by SWO_daddy]
The farthest I've shot my A2 (no scope) is 600 yards. But Camp Atterbury in Indiana has five or six 1000 yard matches this year and I will shoot at least one of them.

My reloads topped with Hornady 75 AMAX at 2700 fps will be the ammo of choice. Yes, it does stay supersonic (~1300 fps) at 1K.

ETA: Bigbore, you ever make it to Atterbury?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:24:45 PM EDT
4-500m, then the wind kills me. I'm getting into the precision shooting game soon, so I will learn the wind and finally have an optic that allows compensation for wind.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:28:31 PM EDT
Judging wind can be a lifetime learning event, as for optics, I woulod learn everything about the iron sights I could before I went to the optics, you dont have too but it gives me a great sense of accomplishment when I can consistantly tag a target at 800m useing open sights and a lot of hold over. Makes optics seem alot easier I think.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:32:12 PM EDT
MOA at 700 + at Rocket Mountain. Hitting the flappers with 2 out of 3 once the wind held. That was my 20" 1/8 using Mk262. I had a great spotter calling wind though. All I did was hold and squeeze. I've hit windows at 1400 meters using a Barrett and raufos rounds.

A friend of mine was doing the same thing with my rifle, only he had the second round (hit) in the air before the 1st hit.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:48:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 4:48:31 PM EDT by FarmerJ_001]
600 yards with an issue M4 Carbine both with Iron sights and an ACOG.

1000 yds with an M1 Garand and an M14.

Out to 600 easy to stay on an E-silhouette(19"X40"). 1000 yrds I can keep it on the paper. Of course, the paper is 6'X6'
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:51:23 PM EDT
Not the best pic but I am the second to the left, with the barret, you can see the magazines for it on top of the box next to me (so the roof tar didnt stick to them)

Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:04:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 5:09:53 PM EDT by mrraley]

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I can consistantly hit at 800M with a 20" barrel, I have seen 14.5" get out to 800M also, My farthest with a 20" is 1046 shooting Mk262 Mod1 with an ACOG for glass. My farthest with other than an AR style rifle was a car in Iraq at 2000M with an M107, I have a picture if you wish to se it, but you wont be able to see the car I am affraid .



Now I would have to see that in person.

Even when I was gunning a M2 ODS a 2000M target is still not easy to track and hit.


Max Effective Range ....................... 550 m (individual/point targets)
800 m (area targets)
Max Range.. .................................... 3600 m

Pat
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:08:57 PM EDT
1000 meters is not an unobtainable distance with this rifle, say what you will but you are just showing your ignorance right now.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:26:30 PM EDT
Im real good irons (at least I thougt I was shooting 1-1 1/2 MOA groupes with them at 100yds)Ive got expert on every weapon system Iv'e shot in the Military and Law Enforcement. I even hit 3/4 on the 800 meter rets targets with the M249 and I hit the 1500 meter vehicle 2/2 with the MK19 at Ft. McCoy before shipping out in april of 03. As far as my trigger time in the box I never took a shot farther then 400-500 meters tops with eiterh the MK19 or the M249 (both Iron sites). I was an MP gunner not a sniper although I voluntered to go to the school more times than I can remember. I am jelous of you guys getting to shoot the .50 sniper that thing rocks. I am paying my own way through a LEO sniper school since my dept. doesnt feel the need for another sniper even though we have two NIB remington 700P in 308 and only one qulified sniper. Im still paying for my personal 700P 7mm Rem mag that I am forced (Ya like you have to twist my arm to by a heavy barrel 7 rem mag) to buy since the won't let me use one the issue ones for school.

As for barrel length everything Iv'e read (Ultimate Sniper for Military and Law Enforcement) and been told by fellow officers and snipers that I know says that you need a longer barrel for long range shooting. they go in depth about how barrel length is a major factor in long range trajectory and accuracy? I am taking the M4 to shoot the PD's either way but I just don't see how at 600+ meters it can shoot as accurate as a 24" gun? If I hit great but I would think a guy with a 24" could shoot better then me since he has a longer barrel even if I was a better shot.

thanks for your input guys.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:32:56 PM EDT
Check this thread out, it might make you a believer.
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=10&t=437023
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:41:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 5:41:53 PM EDT by DM1975]
It is all in knowing your rifle, If you give someone a bran new M24 that they have never fired and an old remington 788 that they have hunted with and shot for years, they will shoot better over multiple distances with the 788 more than likely. I shoot at all distances and I record my dope when I shoot. I also have a wind table I carry with me that gives me a general guideline to follow for putting my dope on my rifle from wind. A zero on a rifle is only a refferenc point, after that you have to know where that round will hit. Having the right ammo also helps alot. I fired both M855 and Mk262 at 1046M (ranged with a laser range finder) and I could tell a difference in the grouping watching the bullet traces but it still got out there, anything lighter than the 855 I dont think would have made it.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:53:55 PM EDT
Accuracy is not affected by barrel length. Velocity is. A 10'' noveske barrel is incredibly accurate, but it doesn't work for longer ranges because the velocity is too low to keep a flat trajectory (or something like that). A 24'' barrel will do better at longer ranges not because group size is better, but because it will be flatter shooting to that distance.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:56:53 PM EDT
I once shot an ammo can at 1000 yards with a 7.62X51.

The guy carrying it was upset that I was using a minigun.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:58:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 5:58:54 PM EDT by DM1975]

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
I once shot an ammo can at 1000 yards with a 7.62X51.

The guy carrying it was upset that I was using a minigun.


Not nice
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:30:16 PM EDT
By dog hunting, you mean prairie dogs, correct? An adult prairie dog has a kill zone of ~3"x3", for those not familiar with them.

It sounds like many of the shooters here are talking about hitting man-sized targets at long range, not rodents.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:10:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 7:23:07 PM EDT by Mark82ndABN]
I've only engaged targets out to about 450 meters with 5.56 rounds (M4).....paper targets a bit further. With 7.62 out to 1,000 meters. Farthest target I've successfully engaged was a bit over a mile with a Barrett .... a 6ft wide radar dish.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:19:56 PM EDT
Damn guys! I'm just an old 3-gun shooter, a 12" plate at @300yds is the best I can do.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:47:30 PM EDT
Couch-comando and Bigbore have given you the closest answer to your question.

Accuracy and distance is a factor of bullet stabilization and Velocity.

Yes, the barrel plays a determining factor in both of these elements of marksmanship, but the barrel's length does not "increase" accuracy as the barrel's length increases. This is a myth. What the barrel does-- is apply the rquired "spin" on the bullet so it can achieve stabilization in flight. This spin is achieved by what we know as the rate of twist of the barrels lands and grooves. There is a required length that the bullet must be forced to travel over these "lands and grooves" in order to get the proper spin. Second the barrel must allow for all the powder to be burned in the cartridge in order to impart all the power to the projectile. Any length of barrel beyond that ---which is required to ignite all the powder--- is detrimental to velocity. The barrel imparts serious drag on the bullet -- and once all the powder has exploded and pushed the bullet as fast as it will go ---- you want the bullet to leave the barrel as soon as possible and hopefully in a stabilized spin.

Of the 2 factors : Stabilization and Velocity......... I would say the factor that most sets the length of the barrel is the time required for the complete powder charge to be expended and imparted into the projectile. Stabilization can be achieved in a realtive short distance..........this of course depends a great deal on bullet design, length, and weight.

Many times a rifle will be built around the cartridge, because it is the requirements of the cartridge that will determine many characteristics of the rifle's physical make -up. I think the AR15/ M16 first started out as a bullet design ----followed by the rifle that could effectively use this cartridge. I could be wrong ?

JF.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:00:56 PM EDT
That is the best answer yet, the twist rate will determin the grain of the bullet used to meet this velocity, for instance if you have a 1 in 9 twist it is generaly not enough to stabilize a heavier bullet such as a 75 to 80 grn. Thats why alot of competition shooters go with a 1 in 8 so they can send those heavy bullets down range. Another factor to consider is the powder and how well it burns, I am not a reloader so I dont know alot about that. No matter what you say tho, some people will never be convinced otherwise that a longer barrel is not always a better barrel.


Originally Posted By sniper350:
Couch-comando and Bigbore have given you the closest answer to your question.

Accuracy and distance is a factor of bullet stabilization and Velocity.

Yes, the barrel plays a determining factor in both of these elements of marksmanship, but the barrel's length does not "increase" accuracy as the barrel's length increases. This is a myth. What the barrel does-- is apply the rquired "spin" on the bullet so it can achieve stabilization in flight. This spin is achieved by what we know as the rate of twist of the barrels lands and grooves. There is a required length that the bullet must be forced to travel over these "lands and grooves" in order to get the proper spin. Second the barrel must allow for all the powder to be burned in the cartridge in order to impart all the power to the projectile. Any length of barrel beyond that ---which is required to ignite all the powder--- is detrimental to velocity. The barrel imparts serious drag on the bullet -- and once all the powder has exploded and pushed the bullet as fast as it will go ---- you want the bullet to leave the barrel as soon as possible and hopefully in a stabilized spin.

Of the 2 factors : Stabilization and Velocity......... I would say the factor that most sets the length of the barrel is the time required for the complete powder charge to be expended and imparted into the projectile. Stabilization can be achieved in a realtive short distance..........this of course depends a great deal on bullet design, length, and weight.

Many times a rifle will be built around the cartridge, because it is the requirements of the cartridge that will determine many characteristics of the rifle's physical make -up. I think the AR15/ M16 first started out as a bullet design ----followed by the rifle that could effectively use this cartridge. I could be wrong ?

JF.

Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:41:00 PM EDT
10 miles
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 12:37:11 AM EDT
Boy o Boy when I read the thread title my mind went straight for the gutter.

On that note, I'd say 10-16" is about the max.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:39:49 AM EDT
Thsnks guys I guys i should have no issues with the short barrel then. I just need to find a place to shoot longer range so I can get iconsistant at hitting a 3"x3' groupe at 600 yards for the prarie dogs. Practice makes perfect, Thanks again.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 6:53:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By combatvet1:
Thsnks guys I guys i should have no issues with the short barrel then. I just need to find a place to shoot longer range so I can get iconsistant at hitting a 3"x3' groupe at 600 yards for the prarie dogs. Practice makes perfect, Thanks again.



Do you know how hard it is to achieve a consistent 1/2 MOA at 600 yards?!? Your rifle, ammo, and technique have to be damn near perfect.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 7:04:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 7:14:56 AM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 7:09:46 AM EDT
I agree, I have not tried this on an AR with a scope other than an ACOG but with open sights 2 MOA at 600 or a 12" area is a bit of a challenge with wind. I am sure with good glass the groups would be alot better.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 9:52:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 9:55:12 AM EDT by combatvet1]

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By combatvet1:
Thsnks guys I guys i should have no issues with the short barrel then. I just need to find a place to shoot longer range so I can get iconsistant at hitting a 3"x3' groupe at 600 yards for the prarie dogs. Practice makes perfect, Thanks again.



Do you know how hard it is to achieve a consistent 1/2 MOA at 600 yards?!? Your rifle, ammo, and technique have to be damn near perfect.



Im shooting for 3" groupes at 600 not 1/2 inch I know im not that good! But thanks for rubbing it in LOL. Some one posted earlier in my thread that the p-dogs are about 3"x3" center mass for good hits so thats what I am aimiing for.

wish I had a spot to shoot 1K yds around here that is my ultimate goal to shoot precision at long.... I mean real long range. But I will most likely use my 700P 7mm Ram mag for that kind of shooting if I ever get to.

thanks agian guys.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 11:40:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By combatvet1:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By combatvet1:
Thsnks guys I guys i should have no issues with the short barrel then. I just need to find a place to shoot longer range so I can get iconsistant at hitting a 3"x3' groupe at 600 yards for the prarie dogs. Practice makes perfect, Thanks again.



Do you know how hard it is to achieve a consistent 1/2 MOA at 600 yards?!? Your rifle, ammo, and technique have to be damn near perfect.



Im shooting for 3" groupes at 600 not 1/2 inch I know im not that good! But thanks for rubbing it in LOL. Some one posted earlier in my thread that the p-dogs are about 3"x3" center mass for good hits so thats what I am aimiing for..



Uuuuhhhhhhh, 1/2 MOA (minute of angle) at 600 yards is 3 inches, not 1/2 inch.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:22:41 PM EDT
OHHHHH. my bad I thought.... well I guess you can tell what I thought he ment.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 5:01:30 AM EDT
Praire dog at (Leica Geovid verified) 450 yards.

DPMS 16" post ban barrel
Winchester USA 45gr HP
IOR Valdada M2 4x scope
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