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Posted: 9/27/2002 5:19:15 AM EST
Gentlemen,
I've read the threads shredding Les Baer's AR-15s as overpriced. These same (s)hreads were littered with suggestions that one should "build it themselves" or jealous statements like "wouldn't own one if I had the money", or "you'll pay less and get a rifle that will outshoot a Baer".

Well guys, step up to the plate, tell me how you would do it. Start with the forged/machined uppers and lowers. Where can I get them? Who else builds their rifles like this?

I find it hard to believe that someone could suggest a gun made from assorted pieces, from assorted suppliers, assembled by assorted gunsmiths can achieve the same quality for a significantly lower price as one built from the ground up by one single company.

In other words: Explain how you achieved 1/2"MOA without spending $1850.00

I really want to know.

Jimno
.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 5:30:51 AM EST
Buy a DPMS bull barrel 24" gun and install a JP trigger. You'll have a BETTER rifle. It doesn't take much these days to get 1/2" and it definately doesn't take $1800.

And before you tear into DPMS for whatever components they use, keep in mind that I have two DPMS SS fluted bull barrel guns in 16" and 24" and both shoot 1/2", so I speak from experience, not theory of "a parts gun can't be as good...." In fact, I never shoot my Remington PSS anymore because I know my AR's will shoot as well and they will be more fun.
So, what experience do you have with AR15's anyway? It doesn't sound like much if you're doubting the capability of MANY manufacturers to create a 1/2" shooter.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 6:14:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2002 6:22:55 AM EST by Jimno2506]
Balzac needs Prozac.

Nice post.

Thanks for the info on DPMS. What did your rifles cost? I see the 24" bull will run $1200, add the Jewell $134,vent the handguard $60, chrome the bolt $39, install Harris swivel stud.$20.00, case $59, and you've spent $1500+ on a rifle with no guarantee. Just your good word.

My experience with AR-15s is of no consequence.

I'm waiting for more posts on this subject. I want to see just how many other makers/smiths will stand behind their product like Baer does.

Name the MANY mfgrs you speak of, Balzac.

Keep em coming,

Jimno2506
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 6:58:49 AM EST
I own those two DPMS guns and could recreat them for under $900 each and the trigger would be INFINATELY better than a LB trigger. If you want to go a cheaper, but still effective route, get the RRA NM trigger group, you'll still have a great 4.5# trigger for $80 less.

I paid $400 for the 24" DMPS WITH a vented handguard (why is it important in a tack driver anyway?), chromed bolt/carrier, high rise thick walled upper and mated it to my Colt Elite lower. I do not know for certain that another lower would react as positively as my Colt has, but I wouldn't doubt the capability of the RRA(NM lower for $290 at Norela) lower in combination with the DPMS upper (EE for $400 with bipod, 30mm Leupold QR rings AND 120 round of IMI SS109).
Any no, no prozac for me, I'm just an angry hungover guy with no work assignment and heartburn.

The manufacturers rifles I've SEEN in person shoot 1/2" are my Colt HBAR Elite ($1100), the two DPMS guns ($350+$400), a Bushmaster Varminter ($950), and an RRA varminter. The Colt and BM guns had thinner profile barrels though, but still shoot as well.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 7:15:03 AM EST
My 500 dollar DPMS service rifle upper will do sub 1" groups at 200 yards. It is all about barrel quality and a bit of attention regarding assembly.

I have a 24" heavy barrel that will do nearly this on hot days, but the barrel walks on cold days when it heats up.

I would say that most of the rifles built by good smiths and the custom shops can equal this. At 1850 bucks, a smith can afford to do a lot of tweaking. From what I gather, there is not a lot of mystery in making an AR really shoot. They are not M-14's.

Nothing special about the ammo - just Nosler 55's and 748.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 7:12:45 PM EST
Oh yeah, FYI - CDNN Investments has a sale on Bushmaster Varminters for $800. Buy em while they're hot! Never shot one myself, but I've seen them shoot and I've been impressed.

My favorite is definately DPMS right now.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 7:28:24 PM EST
Try the Olympic Arms PCR-1P for $1299 and it includes higher grade Maxhard Flattop upper and lower receivers and comes from the factory with the harris bi-pod, Ergo Tactical Grip Williams Set Trigger and you can expect Sub 1/2 MOA right out of the box.

There's on example of a more accurate rifle for hundreds less and it comes with a Lifetime Warranty and 60 day money back guarantee. Les Bear doesn't even offer that.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 9:09:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2002 9:10:37 PM EST by smoken44]
My factory 20" V-match will hold 5/8" MOA for a 20 shot agg (4 five shot groups @ 100yds). 844, 50-52 bullets, LC brass. Standard load for all my ar's. Paid $800 last year for it. Accuwedge and polished the trigger pins.

For the unbelievably low price of 1800.00, I will guarantee it will shoot groups under 1/2 MOA. Do we have a deal???????
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 3:17:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2002 3:30:52 PM EST by CANADIAN_TACTICAL]
I have experience with four different DPMS configurations
The DCM Flattop (its a Canadian Thing)- which I am playing around with to build up a "SPR" type rifle
as well 14.5 M4
Sweet16
7.5" KittyKat

Both the Sweet16 and the DCM rifle will shoot sub MOA and typically .5



As well this group (the three X's - off centre burt a nice group) was shot by a friend with this DPMS barreled gun AT 800m
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 7:25:51 PM EST
Me sees a DPMS trend developing! Check out that CDNN deal, it won't be a waste of your time or money. However, if you have more time, wait around for a flat top fluted SS DPMS gun to hit the market, pick up a receiver and an RRA NM parts kit for a surefire sub MOA gun.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 10:35:51 AM EST
I agree that 1/2" MOA is not that significant to achieve if you don't mind some experimenting with your loads to find the correct match for your rifle. I am new to the AR scene, but my Colt 6700 ($920) with a JP trigger ($134) and a Fulton Armory float tube ($60) does the trick. 1/4" three shot groups are not uncommon with this setup. 1/2" five shot groups in no wind are something I don't get that excited about anymore. As I said, I have experimented with loads and my favorite so far is 24 grains of H335 behind the Berger 73 grain LTB. I use Winchester cases and Fed.GM primers. The Bergers are seated as far out in the magazine as I can get them. Good luck on your choice of a new rifle. I think you can save yourself some money and still get the 1/2" MOA no problem.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 10:52:59 AM EST
Gentlemen,
I certainly will be rolling my own. Thanks for the recipes.

Thanks to everyone who answered my questions. It is easy for someone to make a statement and not back it up, talk is cheap. I appreciate real life examples/configurations that I can use in my application. This is what I was looking for, and you guys filled my needs to a "T".

I never meant this to be a post defending Les Baer, they make great stuff. So do many other companies, and you guys have shown me how to do it right, and save money,and get the accuracy I want. I cannot thank you enough.

BUT, I think I've settled on a rifle from Kurt's Kustom,(what a guy!!!!!) He's going to make me the rifle of my dreams!!! with dedicated uppers!!! and lots of neat stuff!!!

Jimno

Link Posted: 10/4/2002 12:25:10 PM EST
Try the Olympic Arms PCR-1P for $1299
END

THis gun and any other OLY makes is garbage. I bought a Ultra match from them it camed with the set trigger 24 inch barrel and a harries bi bop and PSG1 style grip.

They forgot to send the grip, The floated handguard was loose, The bi pod hole was cut 25 degrees off. The chamber was skrewed up and it bulged all factory cases I tried in it. I sent the upper back to them the said to keep the lower. Over 11 months went by and still no upper back. The at one time had the gall to say I had to wait for a batch of 24 inch barrels to be made. It was their fault yet they expected me to wait. The offered an inferror barrel but with no refund. Anyway eventually the gun came back. It would shoot no better than 1.25 mao on average. Then after 500 rounds or so the gun starts to double. Oly says its my problem but they will give me their sub contractors number that did the trigger. I was so made I could have strangled the rep though the phone. I had a JP trigger put in sold the upper at a loss and Oly will never get my buisness again. Funnything is after talking to others about oly it appears that I am not alone. I had a friend who had problems with one of their carbines. Simply put people they suck.
PAT
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 12:25:14 PM EST
Check out Chuck Taylor's review of DPMS ARs. He has five off the shelf guns that shoot 1/2 MOA or better.

http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/longrange.html

- Greg
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 7:16:57 PM EST
You cant build an AR to the same specs of the Les Baer for the price of a Baer. Fit, finish,quality of parts and craftsmanship...all has its price. Get over it ! Thats why there are many manufacturers...you get what you pay for..and what you need it for..and what you can afford. There are similar bbls from Kreiger or PacNor, BearCoat finish and QMI gold firing pin, cryo the bbl,Jewell trigger...add it up. This is not a rack grade or rock buster rifle. Guys have previously charged up to $ 3000 for this class of rifle..and didnt have a name like Baer.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 7:45:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 10:02:52 PM EST by NYPatriot]
Surprise, surprise... the topic of Les Baer products comes up on AR15.com, and JusDfacts is there to sing the praises of Les, and his "Uber rifles." JusDfacts, why don't you just come clean & admit that you have some paid or personal affiliation with Les Baer, and be done with it? Better yet, why don't you talk Les into anteing up the money to become an "Industry Partner"? , That way you can moderate an entire forum dedicated to answering questions & disseminating information about Les Baer's product line. It is one thing to have strong opinions about something JusDfacts, it is quite another to have an agenda. If you were honest with yourself & the other board members, you would admit that you have crossed that line.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 2:27:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/16/2002 2:33:00 PM EST by Balzac72]
Originally Posted By JusDfacts: You cant build an AR to the same specs of the Les[red]sor[/red] Baer for the price of a Baer. Fit, finish,quality of parts and craftsmanship...all has its price. Get over it ! Thats why there are many manufacturers...you get what you pay for..and what you need it for..and what you can afford. There are similar bbls from Kreiger or PacNor, BearCoat finish and QMI gold firing pin, cryo the bbl,Jewell trigger...add it up. This is not a rack grade or rock buster rifle. Guys have previously charged up to $ 3000 for this class of rifle..and didnt have a name like Baer.
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Put your money where your mouth is. I'll use my DPMS 16" SS or 24" Colt Elite with surplus ammo and I'll outshoot your Lessor Baer. Options are nice, but I've seen tricked out rice burning Honda Accords with 19" rims, louvres, chrome exhaust tips, tinted windows, chrome shifter/parking brake and foglights that don't go any faster than your off the shelf stock honda accord. So it really doesn't matter AT ALL if it has a gold plated firing pin or whatnot. It just needs to work. MY RIFLES WORK and I spent $700 to complete the DPMS, while the off the shelf Colt Elite, I purchased for $1100 when they came out. Here's some real life examples of what MY guns do, read em and weep. I bought both for the same price as a Lessor Baer. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=144521&w=searchPop[/url] PS. The majority of those groups were shot with the DPMS 16" and the Swiss surplus. Go buy your $2000 Lessor Baer and we'll see what eachother's setups can do. You game? PPS. There is no name greater than Colt, got it?
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 8:29:41 PM EST
true story: i sold a rifle to a friend of mine. it was a 16inch JT kit gun on a century reciever. sold it to him for $550. he bought a krieger barrel, a fulton free float tube and a 1 stage trigger from accuracy speaks. one of the combat arms guys in his air guard unit did the work for $50. add the japanese tasco he got from CDNN on closeout and he's got somewhere between $1100 and $1200 in the rifle. he can hold 1/2 MOA all day long. not even a problem. hell ive seen someone take my bone stock Colt MT 6601 no free float no mods and shoot under an inch probably .75 when it comes to the les baer and Wilson combat ARs its truly a case of "a fool and his money are soon parted"
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 9:40:14 PM EST
DPMS lower...$235 JP trigger...$100 DPMS Upper...$600 (20" bull/freefloat) Total........$935 BTW...I will get hell for saying this, but I know for fact that DPMS 20" bull is a Wilson. My rifle is LESS than 1/2" MOA Face it, There are only [red]TWO[/red] things that really matter in accuracy in an AR aside from the sights. Free-floated Barrel and a light/crisp Trigger. Period. The forged upper/lower is nice, but they really have nothing to do with accuracy.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 6:50:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: BTW...I will get hell for saying this, but I know for fact that DPMS 20" bull is a Wilson.
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Where'd you hear that? I thought DPMS made their own stuff?
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 7:38:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/18/2002 10:52:10 AM EST by sniped]
Originally Posted By Balzac72: Oh yeah, FYI - CDNN Investments has a sale on Bushmaster Varminters for $800. Buy em while they're hot! Never shot one myself, but I've seen them shoot and I've been impressed. My favorite is definately DPMS right now.
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I'll second that, I have one. I sent my lower to BM and they sweeten up the match two stage for FREE! butter smooth first stage, breaks like glass second. 800.00 Varminter, 700.00 Leupold M1 for 1500.00 you have a complete tack driver. In addition 300.00 left for mags and ammo. [b] I think this 100 yard five shot group with PMC ammo speaks for itself[/b] [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/93f391e0/bc/Mvc-002e.jpg?bcIbLA.AVkM_mERn[/img]
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 7:57:37 AM EST
I like the automotive analogy. Here is another - the VW Scirocco (if I'm not mistaken)was the fastest production car in the world for many years running, but I never heard of anyone getting trashed or labled a fool for driving say, a Porsche or Mercedes.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 11:32:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By stosh: I like the automotive analogy. Here is another - the VW Scirocco (if I'm not mistaken)was the fastest production car in the world for many years running, but I never heard of anyone getting trashed or labled a fool for driving say, a Porsche or Mercedes.
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A Les Baer is not a status symbol. Additionally, there are some guns that are envied for their unique features, but when you look at a LB, there is NOTHING that distinguishes itself from other HB AR15's. Notice my analogy was between a "tricked out" Honda Accord and a stock Honda Accord? One is a show queen, while the other one performs a car's functions better. Get it? [;)] So your "car status symbol" analogy isn't worth much, is it?
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 5:23:35 PM EST
Whew ! I havd had the unique experience of having shot every AR on the market, worked on them and built them. I might as well have mentioned why "Coors" is the best beer ! I haven handled and fired all the Les Baer rifle variants at my local gun club. They are incredible, based on my experience. Yes others build fine rifles and may shoot 1/2 MOA..but not out of the box and not built to the specs of a Les Baer. Look at his website for what the rifles include. These are for serious shooters, who want a complete package that doesnt need add ons. Like Weatherby, they are for a limited segment of the market. Get over it Bushy Boys ! Les has challenged the other manufacturers to bring their toys to a range and have a marketwide AR test/shoot off. This has been worked on by major gun magazine publishers for an article...funny thing..no takers..except Les Baer. Keep the forum of ideas open.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 5:35:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2002 5:36:51 PM EST by Balzac72]
Wow, a unique experience. I have two guns, a Colt and DPMS that shoot under 1/2 MOA and they didn't require ANY mods. You want to WASTE $1800 because you don't want to spend the time reading articles that say that the DPMS guns are as good as Les Baer? GO AHEAD! However, there is no need to spend that much, even if you're a "serious shooter." (Whatever that is, since LB's aren't competition built.) You just need to be a dumb ass to spend nearly twice as much to get a rifle of equal capability! Now if you're the type that likes to brag about his "Lessor Baer" then go ahead, waste your money for bragging rights. However, don't cry a river when my Colt outshoots your LB. [;)]
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 8:45:27 PM EST
JustDfacts, Can you explain why the raw forging I bought from Les Baer looked like the magazine well was chiseled out with a dull screwdriver? I was so disgusted I did not finish this lower for several months. BTW, the 24" heavy barreled upper I mentioned earlier I assembled in 1985 from the cheapest parts I could find. Oly barrel, cut down A1 upper with a screwed on weaver base, Chinese cast forward assist, and a gunshow bolt. Looked pretty funky like an 03A3 with a parked barrel, blued parts, a silver ColtGard flash hider, and a spray painted black upper. If I put some work in it, I wonder if it could shoot under 1/2"
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 4:57:22 AM EST
Cheapest way is to buy my Colt 6724 upper [;)]and get your favorite lower and trigger.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 9:11:44 AM EST
POGO: I dont work for les baer...what part of "raw forging" dont you understand...probably best resolved with the prople who sold it to you..another hobbiest too cheap to but a finished lower...I would have bought a RRA or DPMS based on what info you have given me. Choose your Ar parts carefully and live with that choice...no one in this room can fix your "Raw forging"...I have seen thousands of those..most are pretty ugly..you are correct.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 1:47:06 PM EST
Jus, you are assuming a lot. I think we can all recognize a shill when we see one. Letting you get under my skin is like letting Fulton Armory guys irritate me on the other boards. It doesn't help, and you can't shut them up either. The market for AR parts was pretty lean 15 years ago, without the specialized info available on the web we are taking for granted now. For the price I paid for the Les Baer forging, I expected the best. I was dissappointed. Too cheap a hobbiest to buy a 120 dollar finished lower? I have 35,000 bucks in machine tools in my garage. I am sorry, but I did not want to buy an item I can make. Only if I had time off work to use them...
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 5:12:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 9:16:07 PM EST by NYPatriot]
Posted by JusDfacts...
POGO: I don't work for Les Baer
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That may be true, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you work for Rocky Mountain Arms... You know, the folks who [b]finish all of Les Baer's weapons[/b] in "BearCoat"! Am I getting warmer??? [thinking]
Keep the forum of ideas open.
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...as in a Les Baer forum in the Industry section of this site. Great idea JusDfacts... make it so!!! The next time you see &/or speak to Les, tell him to pony up the $$$ to become an "Industry Partner" on the greatest & most widely visited AR15 web site going!
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