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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 12/11/2003 1:31:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 1:33:16 PM EST by AR-fan]
I was thinking about buying a laser for one of my project carbines but wondered how do you get the thing to be pretty much on target? Are they just for close-up work like a laser on a pistol?
What sort of range are the good quality lasers visible out to in bright daylight? I was hoping for something I could use at 50 yards on a pistol caliber carbine.

Sorry about all the dumb questions but I don't want to drop a bunch of money on something I won't be able to use.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:15:47 PM EST
Laser in bright daylight? Id say you have about a 4-6 foot range. At night depending on the laser 50-200m.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:20:09 PM EST
First, visible lasers, including the "good ones" do not work well in direct daylight, they just aren't powerfull enough. A greenbeam would be better than the red, but there are no weapons grade greenbeams yet (The beamshot uses the same technology as laser pointers/pens as far as I know so I don't count it). In general, visible lasers are only good for overcast, dimmer conditions, or indoors. Since they point straight, they are like iron sights, they are only going to be dead nuts on at two different points in the bullet's trajectory, and even then they will be offset by the amount the laser is offset to the bore as mounted. Zeroing the laser at close distances will cause parallax at longer distances. On a pistol, you won't be able to zero the laser really far away to avoid major parallax because then it will be way off of point of impact for the pistol cartidge. Set it at the distance you think most likely to shoot at, most usefull, and then you may use it indoors, at night, and on dim/overcast days or in shadow. One of my Glocks has a built in laser in the triggerguard and it was factory zeroed for 30 ft - good enough for most close in combat work, any targets closer or farther and the laser dot will be off low or high. Welcome to the world of lasers...
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:18:40 AM EST
Visible light lasers are movie (and movie theater) devices. An noted they're invisible in daylight. You're much better off with a dot sight which you can see in any light. Trying to find the dot will often take a long time as it's only visible if it strikes something, unlike the reflex dot sights where it's visible even against the sky. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:51:17 AM EST
Thanks for all the input! It kind of makes me think I may have saved some money. I have used lasers indoors and like them for that type of use on pistols -- close quarters use. I guess I would use the laser on a carbine in the same scenarios as a pistol -- like; indoors, low light, short range and any combination of these. I imagine that outdoors would be the same. I mentioned 50 yards because this is what I have the red dots on the carbines sighted for. Does anybody see a [u]real value[/u] in using a laser on a carbine sized weapon for close quarters defensive purposes or would I be better off sticking with the pistol/laser combination?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:30:16 PM EST
Your better off using a red dot carbine combination.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 3:05:07 AM EST
Ah, the red dot - the laser that only you can see and works even in bright light. Seriously though, what good is the laser in CQB but point shooting without aiming? I prefer aiming, and that's not hard with nice red dot and proper technique.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 4:25:19 AM EST
Thanks to all of you -- I have a better understanding of the laser use. I have used my pistol in very low light and the laser was my only way of verifying that I was on target. My carbines all have red dots and the low light is not a problem so guess I was just chasing my tail. This is my 357sig project carbine that's still in progress. [img]http://images.ofoto.com/photos555/8/91/0/25/87/0/87250091805_0_ALB.jpg[/img] By the way -- that bipod is just for the range, I have no need for it otherwise because of the added weight.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 5:16:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2003 5:20:15 AM EST by markm]
The only way to get a laser on target is to tape the damned thing TO the target.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 11:58:00 AM EST
I bought a $20 laser for shits and giggles. It sucks ass. I want to get rid of it now.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 7:45:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR-fan: Thanks to all of you -- I have a better understanding of the laser use. I have used my pistol in very low light and the laser was my only way of verifying that I was on target.
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??? Get a light mounted on that pistol, or perhaps night sights.
Originally Posted By throttlejunkies: I bought a $20 laser for shits and giggles. It sucks ass. I want to get rid of it now.
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Sell it to someone with a cat - they go after it like kitty crack. It drives them INSANE! Take it to the range and show it off, most people really like lasers (until they try to use them in earnest), should be easy to sell there.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 11:24:35 PM EST
I second the motion of you getting a light for your pistol. Although a laser can be useful on a pistol, a light is a lot more useful.Although you might, and I stress might, find yourself in a postion where you can't see your sights, that's where a laser would help. An useful device like the Insight M6 that has both a light and a laser could come in handy in such a situation. A laser is a useful device on a carbine if you ever have to wear a gas mask. It is also a good "hail mary" last resort device if you are pinned under something heavy (or are otherwise unable to shoulder your weapon) and have to fend off a lot of attackers at close range. Unless you think you will ever find yourself in any of these circumstances, save your money. If you do find yourself in a situation where you can't shoulder your primary, that's when you should transition to your sidearm. If you can't do either, the situation is far worse than anyone can handle with any weapon short of a tactical nuke.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 4:46:48 AM EST
AK_Mike & knightone, I like the idea of a pistol light but I'm sorry to say I have never seen one on a pistol. Does it mount on the pistol the same way the laser is mounted? At night I believe the sight of that barrel sticking out past the SureFire on my carbine is somewhat intimidating, does the pistol light do the same thing with the muzzle of the pistol?
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 3:12:48 PM EST
Wow, I'm surprised to find someone who has never seen a pistol mounted light, especially around here. I am assuming, then, that you don't have a pistol with a built in rail. Surefire makes several models of thier classic light that attach directly to the weapon. Another option is to have a [url=http://www3.mailordercentral.com/shootingstore/products.asp?dept=1248]Dawson Precision Light Rail[/url] installed on your weapon. The rail is very low profile and will allow you to use just about any holster that you already have. You can buy it with a light or buy adaptors for several other Surefire rail mounted pistol lights. Most pistol lights stick out past the muzzle of the pistol. The only exception is if you have a long slide or the new Surefire LED weapon light which is designed to not go past the muzzle on a full size gun. It will still, however, stick out on most compacts. Knowing what kind of sidearm you use would also help us figure out what may be best for you.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 11:53:24 PM EST
Click [url=http://www.insightlights.com/photogallery.htm]here[/url] for Insight Technologies Photo Gallery.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 5:38:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/16/2003 5:43:17 AM EST by AR-fan]
Knightone & AK_Mike, I really like the rail adapters for the lights but I may have steered this a little off course. I was really more interested in something for my carbine. My pistol is for back-up and it's a little Walther PPK .380 with the laser. It's small and easy to conceal but I'm afraid it's too small for the lights I saw. The same goes for my Mak's that are in 9x18. I know these are kind of wimp guns but I've had good luck with them -- They DON'T break or fail. I use Federal .380 Hydro shock for the Walther and Barnaul 8x18 HP's in the Mak's. In-house I go for the shotgun and again the pistol is back-up. I believe what you've been trying to tell me is the laser would be a second choice to the light on my carbine (money saved) and the same goes for the shotgun I just brought up. [img]http://www.insightlights.com/itiproductphotos/m3/M3_benelli.jpg[/img] I like this light! Lots of barrel showing.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 4:06:22 PM EST
Alot of these guys who have responded obviously have not experienced a *good* laser. I saw a Crimson Trace laser on a friend's Beretta 92fs, and although I think it redundant, we used it in bright daylight at an outdoor range, and was able to see it clearly at the 50 yard mark. Many of the less expensive lasers use a longer wavelength and are rather weak. If you are set on a laser, make sure to get one with as short of wavelength as possible (this means more money..usually several hundred $$). I do need to remind you..a visible laser, although "cool" and "hollywoodish", isn't very practical on a firearm, because in order to use it, you'd have to forgo using the supplied iron sights. If you start using the laser exclusively, you would develope some pretty bad habits. What if your laser ran out of battery at an inconvinient time? You'd have to transition back to iron sights (and if you didn't practice with irons, you're at a serious disadvantage). This goes for carbines, handguns, shotguns, what have you. Visible lasers also let you get away with bad posture. You can aim without having to bring your gun up, and if you practiced this way, you'd never be accustomed to using your iron sights. However, there are certain special law enforcement applications that I could think of, that could definetely benefit from a visible laser and forgoing the standard sights. 1) Firing a pistol one-handed around a tactical/riot shield. 2) Sticking your arm out of a car and firing it forward without actually sticking your head out of the car. Of course, I don't think I, or any other civilian would be doing this for any reason, but for law enforcement or military reasons, I could see this happening. Bottom line, don't use a laser on any gun. Instead, get the best iron sights possible for your pistol (I prefer Novak low-mount) with a tritium dot on the front sight only (if tritium on rear, make sure it's a different color). Practice hard with it, pan left, pan right (no more than 90 degree angle, so you don't muzzle anyone), and practice engaging multiple targets in different locations. Get used to what the sights look like when they are *on target*. For a rifle, red dots are all the rage (they don't project anything forward), and they do require you to at least bring the rifle up so you can see the dot, so you will still be practicing good posture and will regularily see the iron sights. -Jim
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 5:01:30 PM EST
I also grew up being taught to HATE lasers, and I must admit it clouded my thought process for a couple decades. Ironically I purchased an OTAL for my AR, and LaserMax's for my Glock 23 and 36 in the past year and absolutely love them all!!! They in no way should be used to REPLACE practical shooting techniques, however they do allow quick target acquisition and allow your eyes to focus on your target rather than your sights. In CQB, your peripheral vision is the first thing to go, and the ability to regain that vision through the use of a laser and focus on your target, rather than your front sight, could mean all the difference in the world!!!
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 11:21:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By JimGA: Alot of these guys who have responded obviously have not experienced a *good* laser. -Jim
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Crimson Trace, Insight and Surefire must not be *good* then becasue I can see none of those in bright outdoor daylight without having to hunt for the red dot past a stones throw distance. Then again I dont think cross hair BAC reticules can be used effectivly for BAC either.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 11:22:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By JimGA: we used it in bright daylight at an outdoor range, and was able to see it clearly at the 50 yard mark.
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I'm sorry, Jim, but I have to call BS on that one. I have used many lasers, and I always made sure to get the shortest wavelength possible when they finally started offering them (635nm or less), and they are ALL limited to 5mW or less. None were apparent in bright daylight unless it was on a shadowed or perhaps black gloss target. You can see my Surefire L72 (635nM) over a mile away, farther if you have optics trained on it, and you still can't see it in bright daylight. Perhaps a green laser might help, but sunlight is just a hell of a lot more powerfull than 5mW that civilians are limited to. If I painted a rock say, and I knew exactly where the dot was, I could just barely see it, but it would not catch my eye and no way could I see it at 50yards. This includes the Crimson Trace grips I use on my j frame snubby, and my sig grips. Again, if I set it down pointed at something, if I walked up to within say 10 feet of the dot, I could just barely make it out - useless for practical use. Now when the sun was setting, or it was overcast, then I had no problem. If I was facing the sun and my target was thus shadowed, once again, I could see it. Are experiences sure do differ, but I don't know personally know anyone who could spot the lasers in the bright light unless they knew exactly where to look and it didn't move. Pulsing lasers helped. Maybe it's my eyes. DevL, can you see the L72 dot in bright daylight? PPD, how about you? I know the OTAL is also 635nM and a good one... Perhaps some people are more sensitive?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 3:12:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 3:19:50 AM EST by JimGA]
Originally Posted By AK_Mike: I'm sorry, Jim, but I have to call BS on that one. Perhaps some people are more sensitive?
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I'm uncertain about this, AK_Mike. Perhaps people have varied sensitivity to red light. I wouldn't be too surprised, since partial color deficiency is quite common in males. I do know that the red color wavelength is much more difficulty to see at long distances than the blue or green wavelengths. Learned that back in high-school physics, so that's nothing new. -Jim
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:33:25 AM EST
I have a Applied Laser ($75) on my BM. I dont rely on it. The look on my nephews face when he was able to blast away at a pumpkin 25M away was Priceless, it is a fun "toy". It was overcast that day. I sighted it in by using my 10X scope to move the beam to the hole in the target. Took a while but now I know its good for short range.
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