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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/5/2006 6:49:22 AM EDT
Hey guys,
I'm looking for some glass for a build later in the spring. I feel a raging internal debate between the EOTech and the ACOG TA31. I've shot both and love both but I'm going to settle on just one optic.
One of the things I do not know is how well they hold up in a class. Has anyone taken the TA31 to a class? If you have, I'd love to hear your experiences with it.
Thanks a bunch and Be Well.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:03:46 AM EDT

The batteries on the TA31 lasted longer...

Seriously, I switched from an Aimpoint to a TA11 a year ago and have never regretted it. BAC takes a little more practice but I like to practice.

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:12:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:18:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 7:19:08 AM EDT by pnguyen678]
How did the BAC perform in close-up drills? I'm specifically referring to engaging targets less than 50 yards.
At that distance, it seems the 4x magnification would make me feel claustrophobic.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:24:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:24:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 7:38:10 AM EDT by Duffy]
My favorite is the much used TA31F, it's one of my newest but most oft used in classes. The 19S mount on my MRP isn't as tight as it used to be but it isn't loose (yet? )
Through mud and pouring rain, it held up as if it were a sunny day. Looking through a scope with water on both the objective and occular lenses is kind of odd since I hadn't done it before.


BAC requires practice, it worked very well in its intended role, also in odd positions like on your back and side, I just use it like a red dot sight



Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:25:54 AM EDT
I held my own with my TA31. I'll be attending a class next month and I'll be taking the TA31 to another.

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:28:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pnguyen678:
How did the BAC perform in close-up drills? I'm specifically referring to engaging targets less than 50 yards.
At that distance, it seems the 4x magnification would make me feel claustrophobic.



Then you arent using BAC principles with both eyes open. You dont even see the magnification on close up targets. It takes a little getting used to, and the donut reticle helps in this scenario, because it is bigger and brighter, to it tends to keep your eye off the magnification.

I will say this about my ACOG.... I shot in a very small local 3-gun comp, and came in first place. It wasnt due to my skills or abilities. It was due to my ACOG. I could reliably get better hits, on man sized targets, on anything over 50yds. The other guys would take more shots, and get more fail-to-engage or fail-to-neutralize penalties. We had several smaller 8-10" steel targets placed out beyond 150 yds.... and the iron sight/red-dot guys had more trouble acquiring them and then hitting them. For me, it was no problem. Really made a believer out of me. Hands down, it is my favorite optic. I hardly ever shoot my rifle with the aimpoint anymore.... not detracting from the aimpoint.... I can just do more, and better, with the ACOG.

My next optic will be a second ACOG. I will move the donut ACOG to a supressed SBR I am going to build, and put a chevron TA-31 on my 20" rifle.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:51:13 AM EDT
The hold over is the same whether you're using irons, red dot or magnfied optics. 4X at close range like 5, 10, 15yds, etc. can be somewhat disconcerting because of its limited FOV, I frequently take more time to identify my target but only when I don't use BAC, instead I look through the magnified portion through my dominant eye only. If I had used BAC properly I'd be far faster. As I said BAC requires training
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:54:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:05:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 8:13:46 AM EDT by pnguyen678]
Duffy,
Those are awesome pics but I didn't see any ACOGs. I'm guessing that it wasn't the dominant shooter's choice and you were the Lone BACer.
Also, I think that last picture is important as it tweaked my curiosity. The TA31 has a measly 1.5" of eye relief. How can you shoot the TA31 on your back without being a master yogi?

BTW, do the instructors normally have issues with you taking camera pics during the class?
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:59:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 9:10:47 AM EDT by Duffy]
There were only two ACOGs, you're right they're the minority, there were lots of EOTechs and Aimpoints, there, also a new TriPower and I believe an Aimpoint clone. No problems reported at all from users, save for one EOTech developed a battery problem, the user had to try 2 sets of fresh batteries before it decided to work again, but no problems after that.

Those of us with magnified optics had a decided advantage when engaging targets out to 200 and 300yds as long as we do our part, the rifle and optics gladly oblige with a rewarding "DING!"



The instructor had no problems with me taking pics, he used a video clip I took on his site

With the short eye relief, as I mentioned I just use it like a red dot sight. I've found at longer distances there's quite a discrepency between what you see with both eyes open and what you see in the actual magnified sight pic, but at short ranges it works well enough.

NAG I think everyone should try shooting in inclement weather, it sure adds a new dimension to training, we all looked forward to the rain as most of us hadn't done much shooting, let alone maneuvers in rain and mud. We got to try out our weapons, optics, cold weather and rain gear. Rain had been forcasted for days, still some folks didn't bring all the rain gears they needed. In the pic above you can tell who didn't, because they look like they pooped their pants
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 10:08:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 10:09:31 AM EDT by Buck_Naked]

Rain had been forcasted for days, still some folks didn't bring all the rain gears they needed. In the pic above you can tell who didn't, because they look like they pooped their pants


That would be me in the tactial levi's...

Coming from Oregon, my idea of rain and mud is a little different than some of the guys in CA...

I started off the class with a TA31F, but switched to an aimpoint. I hadn't shot much with it, and decided this class wasn't the time to try and get used to it. It worked fine at the shorter ranges, but at middle distances, I kept wanting to focus on the target through the scope rather than using the BAC as it was intended. If I had spent some more time with the TA31 prior to the class, it would have worked fine.

As soon as the weather clears here in WA, I hope to get out and shoot with the TA31 more.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 10:11:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 10:13:37 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:14:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Some of the classes I have been in there were TA31's. The shooters generally had a problem close up and eventually switched optics or went to irons.

I ran a 2X compact ACOG in a recent class and did pretty well until I got to one particular drill. The instructor had setup two rows of targets 8 deep and about 10 feet apart. You had to walk down the middle double tapping your way from side to side. I found that when I had to transition from one side to the next (while walking) with the targets being within 4-5 feet I sometimes had problem finding my target.

Standing or walking towards a target that is directly infront of you really isn't a problem. Its when you have to move and acquire a new target that is close up is where I find a problem with a magnified optic.

If you'd had that compact on the carry handle where it belongs then you could've used the irons for that drill.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:38:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:52:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Standing or walking towards a target that is directly infront of you really isn't a problem. Its when you have to move and acquire a new target that is close up is where I find a problem with a magnified optic.



I will have to agree 100%.

I had the same problem when using 4x ACOG's.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:27:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Some of the classes I have been in there were TA31's. The shooters generally had a problem close up and eventually switched optics or went to irons.



You bring up an interesting point and one where I have some curiosity. How often must you transition to your iron sights, whether purposeful or unintended? One of my sticking points about the ACOG is that I have drop the sight in order to use my irons. I don't have this problem for the EOTech.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:33:10 AM EDT
Using the TA31F in Pat's class last summer I found that it took some getting used to in transitions, and while moving.

At 4x the "dot" is moving a lot in relation to the target zero down areas.

However, by the end of the class it was rather easy to engage targets in all manner of situations.

Practice, practice, practice.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:55:04 AM EDT
The TA31/TA11 come into their own from 50 yards on out to 300-500 (practical targets). They are a poor choice for shooting under 50 yards primarily.

Of the two, the TA11 will allow more flexible eye placement and will be easier to shoot on the move.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:02:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 11:03:19 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
However, by the end of the class it was rather easy to engage targets in all manner of situations.

Practice, practice, practice.




No question that it's just a matter of practice. I did not give myself enough time to get accustomed to it.

Proof in point is Dport's performance in our last Blackwater class. He shot high score in the class using a TA31, even with the majority of the shooting fifty yards or less. Some scopes might be better suited to fifty yards and under, but Dport proved to me that ACOG’s can be solid performers when the shooter does his part. Like Shivan stated it all comes down to knowing your equipment and practice.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:26:29 AM EDT
What should help matters is the flip up cover MSTN is going to carry for the TA31. It will allow the TA31 to act as an OEG. Should speed up times inside 25yds. If he gets them in before the next VA class, I'll get to find out.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:31:37 AM EDT
You can test to see the effectiveness of the ACOG in "OEG" mode by just covering the front lens with tape. I tested that last year and posted it in a thread with a title something like "What I learned at the range last weekend". I found the OEG-mode ACOG more visually disorienting than a 1x dot, and still noticably slower.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:41:18 AM EDT
This is where I think the 1.25-4X Accupoint has it's advantages....
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:46:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
You can test to see the effectiveness of the ACOG in "OEG" mode by just covering the front lens with tape. I tested that last year and posted it in a thread with a title something like "What I learned at the range last weekend". I found the OEG-mode ACOG more visually disorienting than a 1x dot, and still noticably slower.


I did the same, and didn't find that to be true.

I think the ACOG is one optic that really depends on the shooter.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:56:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:05:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
Zak are you still running the JP Short Range Tactical Sight on the side of your free float tube for fast close in shots?


For "Tactical" class, I have been running just an ACOG (for matches over 100 yards), ditching the SRTS. For close range stage/shots, I use a combination of point shooting and "fast aiming" with the TA11.

For Trooper, I add a DrSight.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:41:50 PM EDT
So who has done a lowlight/night class with an ACOG and a weponlight?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:45:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
So who has done a lowlight/night class with an ACOG and a weponlight?



<crickets>
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:48:40 PM EDT
We have done some night drills where one guy would illuminate an IPSC steel from 25-100 yards for 1-2 seconds and the rest of us would engage it (1-3x). I had no problem with a TA11 ACOG, however, this is a lot less light intensity than a weapon mounted light on a very close range target.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:52:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 12:53:52 PM EDT by Hokie]
Well, I'll toss in my 2 cents, if nothing else to fuel someone else input who'd know better than I.

I've never once participated in a course at night, but in "clearing my backyard on occasion", I find my TA31A reasonably fast as the triangle is blacked out. I do get confused when you're eyes, focused on the dark, are looking past a dim red triangle then instantaneously you're looking past a black one. That said a 4X IMHO sucks at low light CQB and/or varying light conditions during CQB. Heck I think I'd extend that opinion out to anything under 50 yards.

If I knew I'd be running drills at night, I'd take the ACOG off and use the BUIS.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 1:39:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:57:28 AM EDT
I attended Tactical Response's Course this past October and used a 4x ACOG. The multiple targets at very close distance were also difficult for me. Once I acquire the target with my left (non-magnified) eye and bring the rifle to firing position, I only mentally see the magnified image through my right eye. This works well on a nonmoving single CQB target. However, if I now try to transition to a 2nd close target while looking through the ACOG, magnification of the image was definitely a liability. Momentary closing my right eye to try and once again acquire the target with the non-magnified left eye did not work for me (and I’m left eye dominant).

For all other drills the ACOG worked very well. But I have since substituted an Aimpoint for the ACOG on this particular rifle.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:30:13 AM EDT
I've been using a TA11 ACOG since 2002 and have done several classes as well as some informal 3-gun shooting with it locally. The first thing I would say is that the BAC/ACOG thing works better for some people than it does for others.

Up close (<50yds), the ACOG requires more training to use well. You have to get familiar with BAC and you have to be able to mentally switch between magnified and unmagnified views.You also have to do this often enough to know your offset for BAC (which is peculiar to each individual shooter). Using the magnified view will make learning the offset unecessary; but at close ranges the narrower view of the magnified view can exclude targets and make transitions slower.

Another aspect is that you must maintain a good cheekweld when moving for the ACOG to work well. If you don't have good cheekweld you won't get good hits, even up close (you'll hit but not in the -0 zone).

At night without illumination the ACOG is great, it automatically adjusts brightness so it isn't too bright for the target and the magnification lets you acquire and target things that red dot shooters can't even see.

On the other hand, moving from dark to light, the ACOG reticle dims faster than your eyes can adjust to the new light situation as Sinistral mentioned. You can also occasionally get a real freaky light situation if you are in the dark and the target is lit where the reticle isn't blacked out but isn't illuminated enough to make it contrast well either. With a weaponlight, it pretty much goes to black for me; but others have had varying success with that (see Forest's discussion of compact ACOGs with amber reticles in the archives).

However, alll of these can be overcome with training... I did a 3.71 second moving box drill with an ACOG the other day and only dropped one round (held over too high on the head shot). For comparison, my best iron sight time is also 3.71 but I pushed all the rounds to the left so the 4 body shots were outside the -0.

On optics, you still have to make tradeoffs somewhere. I think the best approach is to get some hands on with different optics, decide in advance what tradeoffs you are willing to accept, and then train to make the best use of that optic in different scenarios. In this respect, I think the BAC ACOGs are pretty good as they are about as close as you can get to an optical multi-tool.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:41:14 AM EDT
To those who have reasonably learned/trained to adapt magnified optics (especially ACOG) to CQB (primarily against multiple targets), any suggestions?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:46:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AlanD:
To those who have reasonably learned/trained to adapt magnified optics (especially ACOG) to CQB (primarily against multiple targets), any suggestions?


Fastest will likely be to "not use" the magnified optic, and aim using another technique. For example, it is easy to "point / index" shoot targets if you grasp the end of the fore-end tube with your weak hand. The limitation will be the distance/accuracy at which this is effective.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:28:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:

Originally Posted By AlanD:
To those who have reasonably learned/trained to adapt magnified optics (especially ACOG) to CQB (primarily against multiple targets), any suggestions?


Fastest will likely be to "not use" the magnified optic, and aim using another technique. For example, it is easy to "point / index" shoot targets if you grasp the end of the fore-end tube with your weak hand. The limitation will be the distance/accuracy at which this is effective.



I'll give it a try. Thank you
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