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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/17/2003 2:47:18 PM EDT
Ok.. I'm not into the AR scence too deep. Just done building my 3rd gun (2nd and a half?) I didn't keep the other two long. Kept looking at all those tems sitting together and ended up selling them all off part by part.
I just can't get over the crazy markup on parts and accesories. $100 sight mount rings... $180 for a rail and sight? $300-$400 handguards systems? Am I the only one who thinks this is nuts!? This stuff is junk really when you think about what else you can buy firearms wise for that same amount of money.
How did it get this way?
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 3:04:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 3:04:46 PM EDT by Archer1122]
Because people will pay that price for it. It's the same reason you pay more than $1/gal for gas. If people will refuse to pay such prices there will be a glut and they would come down. Basic law of supply/demand. IMHO edited for dyslexic fingers
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 3:08:57 PM EDT
Barnum sure was right.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 3:24:31 PM EDT
Waa Waa gas is too high. It's only .30 a gallon more that it was in 1975 when I started driving. What else has only gone up a third in the last 30 years?
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 3:27:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 3:30:46 PM EDT by gus]
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: Waa Waa gas is too high. It's only .30 a gallon more that it was in 1975 when I started driving. What else has only gone up a third in the last 30 years?
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You MUST be talking about the price of the gas itself, not including taxes! If I remember correctly, gas was all of $.55 or so per gallon in 1975. I paid $1.50/gal today, so I'd say it's up closer to 300% (pump price).
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 3:43:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 3:49:09 PM EDT by cas]
I'm not talking about prices going up. I'm talking about being too high from the start. I was just looking through the E.E. A used RAS marked down to $350 Yikes... Handguards that cost close to what the upper did. To compair, in the last year or so I purchaed an old Winchester 1892 , Glock 19, S&W M-24, a Ruger Bisley .22 and a whole bunch of other complete functioning rifles and handguns, all for less than the price of this RAS. It's a little metal and some molded plastic? (not a knock on the seller, he's just trying to get his money back) They've got a customer base that's willing to pay way too much. God bless 'em.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 3:49:11 PM EDT
I think what's happening may called "Supply and Demand" but it has been a while since I took my last economics course.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 4:04:22 PM EDT
I think what he is trying to say is nearly every accessory for the AR-15 is sold at RETAIL PRICE!!! MSRP. It is outrageous that these retailers refuse to budge even a single dollar off the MSRP. I use google and find it for a realistic price instead. When it comes to AR-15 stuff, it is hard to find these below MSRP sellers, but they do exist. Screw MSRP. It is just that, a suggested price, not an invitation to rip people off. I refuse to pay MSRP for anything, I never have and never will. The only exception is a rare item that is no longer produced, or just difficult to find. As for the comment that people will pay that price for it, well, there is a sucker born every minute. Just like the fool who walks into a car dealership and pays sticker price.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 4:17:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fistpoint: I use google and find it for a realistic price instead.
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Me too. Caught a supplier selling a scope for about $100 higher than the price I eventually found. Now that's alright, however, I also found that the rings he was selling for $150 came FREE from the scope manufacturer and were to be given with the scope. That is NOT alright and the jerk lost a customer for life.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 4:33:32 PM EDT
If you think AR stuff is pricey...try buying a carton of cigarettes!
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 5:06:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 5:08:32 PM EDT
You don't have to buy top dollar stuff if you don't want to. There is plenty of cheap shit out there to mount on an AR15. I am not made of money by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't mind paying for quality. You pay top dollar for an item from the likes of A.R.M.S and Surefire and you get a great product in return. I don't see the problem here. In fact, nothing makes me cringe like seeing a bunch of low quality garbage hanging off an AR15. If I can't afford a first rate product I will hold off until I can, rather than buy a second rate product instead. You gotta pay to play.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 5:11:14 PM EDT
Seems like a lot of stuff is loaded onto an AR to make it look cool. I have no problem with that, whatever you like. I just like to keep my rifles simple as possible for the function I want. I want to spend my dough on other things. My M16A1 is as simple as the day some PD bought it in the early 80s. I am saving up my cash for a Shrike upper.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 5:16:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 9:27:35 PM EDT
cas, I know where you're coming from...when I see the price of the Knight's stuff, or the SIRs, I just can't figure out why that stuff is so expensive. Call it perceived value, I guess. I just got an ARMS #38std for $115 used. To me, even that looks high, for what is in essence just a hunk of aluminum. Now, I certainly realize I don't have to buy this stuff, or I could find cheaper alternatives. I guess I just wish quality cost less hehehe...say twice what the alternatives were, not 4 and 5 times. I think this problem is probably most evident in scopes...now, I own some cheap glass, no question. I did buy a Weaver Grand Slam from SWFA, on their recommendation, over a Leupold. I paid about $335 for it...and my feeble brain cannot comprehend that there are other scopes out there in the same magnification that are 4 and 5 times more expensive than my Grand Slam. Can they really BE that much better in terms of clarity, light gathereing, etc? I know this is a subjective discussion...even if I could actually see a difference between the GS and a Super Duper Deluxe Leupold, I probably wouldn't think it enough to justify the disparity in price, that's just me. When I was trying to decide which Aimpoint to get, a few people said, basically, that if it isn't an M2 or ML2, it wasn't shit. The only difference I can see between the Comp C and the Comp M2/ML2 is the depth of water that it's designed to withstand. Is that extra 60' worth the $$ in price? Not to me, really,...I'm 5'11"...so if I'm in 20' of water, I'm in trouble hehehe...that extra 60' ain't gonna mean SHIT to me at that point lol. If I had only 2 or 3 rifles, I could see spending some more money on accessories...but at this point, I really have to settle for "adequate". If I was rich, I'd probably be buying really expensive stuff...but I wonder how much of that would be just to have it 'cos it's expensive. Well, I don't know how much sense any of this makes, since it's bedime o'thirty hehehe...but cas, yes, I see your point!
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 2:30:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2003 2:35:56 AM EDT by fistpoint]
Originally Posted By Dianabol: You don't have to buy top dollar stuff if you don't want to. There is plenty of cheap shit out there to mount on an AR15.
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You missed the point. We do want the top dollar stuff, we just dont want to pay the Manufacturers Suggested RETAIL Price. A simple search will uncover these devious fellows who dare venture BELOW the MSRP of a product you can order directly from the manufacturer for the exact same price. How many times have you looked in the back of your VCR/DVD/stereo manuals and noticed the prices for replacement parts? $80 for a new remote, when the same remote from the company being sold at Best Buy is half the price. That is the difference between MSRP and what I call "normal pricing". The whole point of stores existing is to sell for LESS than direct from the factory. But it's your money... Troy: your point about making a profit...how do these other guys do it then if they are selling 10-20% lower than MSRP? A few exist right here on this board, and their service was excellent despite the much lower price. There seems to be an aspect of retail sales that few seem to comprehend: lower prices = more sales. They only focus on "higher prices covers my losses", but never consider the losses are due to slow sales from high prices. I will admit I have never run a retail store, but it seems like the few who do use my method of lower prices/more sales are doing fine. So it works.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 7:12:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: In the end, though, you get what you pay for, and it's up to you to make sure you're buying what you need. -Troy
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Originally Posted By Dianabol: You don't have to buy top dollar stuff if you don't want to. There is plenty of cheap shit out there to mount on an AR15
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These are two very true statements.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 7:23:19 AM EDT
The only place the prices are sane are the Surefire lights. Competition, variety in price and service, and no one is seriously buying those things at MSRP.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 8:20:59 AM EDT
It is all about profit margin, volume of sales and other finance things. There is not reallt that much profiit margin in most of the guns stuff us guys crave and the sales volume is actually rather low unless you are an internet dealer selling whatever is hot at the moment at 5% over cost and then you are lucky to be covering all the expenses. It is not like the jewelery market where MSRP can be 2 to 3 times cost (or more!). with the internet all of us know withing a few dollars what the best price is on any given rifle or rifle part. It has to be tough to stay in business. Offer good service is one key, but us guys want the best price too!.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 10:57:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 11:13:22 AM EDT
I often see people walking into a gun shop with a copy of Shotgun news and point to the owner to see if he can match the price. and question the owner why he couldn't do the same price, tlaking about he seen the price here and there, and at gun show this guy or some guy was selling this for that much and his price was too high. When you really take a look, this idiot is fighting over 30 dollars. freaking 30 dollars for service and after sale support is a small fee to pay. People something just don't understand.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 12:04:13 PM EDT
It also doesn't help that we are a sub-group of a sub-group. Firearms owners are a sub-group of the population, likewise AR owners are a sub-group of firearms owners. Anytime you target a smaller group of potential buyers production costs rise, which gets passed on to the dealer, which gets passed on to you. Not to mention the fact that every one's a bit paranoid about H.R. 2038 and the AWB sunset. No matter how it goes the market is looking at a serious realignment. Just be glad you're not into Harley-Davidson's! I've seen dealers sell those for as much as 50% over MSRP!
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 1:20:51 PM EDT
Troy: Point taken on the fact that these below retail guys work out of the home...and have to raise prices when business booms and have to buy an actual store front.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 5:48:47 AM EDT
Having owned a retail business for awhile (auto parts) I generally agree w/ Troy's comments, and yet there are dealers, with retail outlets, who can and do sell at "Shotgun News" prices. Case in point, Classic Pawn and Jewelry in Chickamauga, GA. Been buying from them at gun shows for years, and am moving up to where I can get to the store next month. Any milsurp guns you see in SGN, they usually have at, or within $10-15 of the SGN price. In the past 6 months I've gotten 30 round Brit mags from 'em for $15. So it is possible to buy in big lots, keep the stock in, and sell at reasonable prices. My own take on the accessory price thing is that the "add on freaks" drive the deal. You guys who just have to own anything the Special Forces or your local SWAT team are using this week, whether you have any possible use for it or not, is what's keeping these guys in bussiness. My own "add ons" consist of two Leupold scopes, one on a flat top mount, and one on a carry handle type mount; scopes which I bought 15-20 years ago, for less than one third of what they cost now. Never felt the need for lights, since I'm not in law enforcement on the night shift, and night hunting is illegal here, or any of the other garbage (to me) pieces that do nothing but crap up the handiness and simplicity of the AR design.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 6:17:08 AM EDT
I just got a small envelope in the mail containing $60 worth of AR gear; 3 PRI tac latches. I had to wonder at the expense but I have a friend who will pay twice as much for a single piece of doll house furniture!
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 6:50:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 7:40:51 AM EDT
is it that prices are too high or wages too low? some industries are in a dangerous deflationary spiral (automobile and computer). The push for a global economy means that american labor costs need to come in line with the rest of the world. this isn't necessarily bad if income goes down proportionately but if the income level of the "elite" remains constant but the income of the middle class absorbs the less then most of us are getting screwed... i would like to see the democratic party TOTALLY whither away and the republican party split into two camps: the current party and an alternative that will fight to maintain a strong middle class.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 4:52:21 PM EDT
With KAC and ARMS, you also have to factor in high R&D costs. We have all read about people designing something cool, like the shrike, but then asking for people to cough up money years in advance of when the product will be available, if it ever does become available, so that they can do the R&D. However, that said, I also think the current rate of increase in the cost of Trijicon optics is insane, after all, this is pretty old design and developement costs should have be recovered years ago. Here I think we have the old supply and demand thing coming into play, either that or they are trying to compensate for the money they have poured into the tripower, knowing they can't charge an arm and leg or one of those since it has to compete with aimpoints and eotechs.
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