Hello all,

Thanks for the help so far. I hope I post this in the right thread.

I own this rifle https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii for home defense only and practice. I have not added any optics or flashlight on it. Just using front sights for now. I do plan to take a self defense with AR15 soon, just want to practice for now.

I decided to test the Hornady 223 55 grain Critical Defense, 223 62 grain Gold dot and 223 62 gr fusion ammo to see which one or two shoots accurate or comfortable in my rifle.

I plan to clean and oil the AR then go to an indoor range with shoot range of up to 50 yards.

The max distance of shooting in my home is about 5 to 13 yards.

Questions:

1. How do I test to see which bullets my rifle shoot accurately at these distances? I have never done this before using the front sights.

2. For each bullet, do I need to re-sight? For example, if I sight-in using the Hornady 55 gr and shoot a few rounds to test accuracy, do I need to re-sight for the 62 gr?

3. Do you recommend red dot optics for better accuracy shooting at these short distance? Or will the the flash light, point and shoot be enough?

3. What if my shooting mechanics is off and unable to sight-in properly? Do you recommend paying someone and learning from the range to sight in initially, then I just practice?

Thanks for the help in advance, I welcome all comments and advance.

Don’t sight in at 13 yards. Basically any sight in system you use will be fine at these distances.

You need a rear sight to go with your front sight. The rifle you listed came with one.

No ammo will be discernibly more or less accurate at 13 yards than another ammo. Accuracy is a secondary or lower concern with defensive ammo. You want rounds recognized as a good close quarters defensive round, with barrier penetration characteristics you’re ok with, that shoots RELIABLY in your gun.

You won’t need to pay someone to learn to use the sights. Anyone you know with a gun, or anyone you can catch the eye of at a shooting angle, should gladly show you for free. Use YouTube and google first for the very basics of sight alignment and you probably won’t need other help.

For Home defense I strongly recommend a reliable light.

Here is a link to sight info:
http://www.thenewrifleman.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-ar15-iron-sights/

At thirteen yards, point and shoot.

Zeroing your rifle at 13 yards will cause more problems than it will cure.

Because you have 2.5" +/- offset between the sights and the bore you will end up being way too high at longer ranges.

I use a 200 yard zero. It's very close to dead on at 50 yards. At short range (13 yards) you won't miss. You'll be approximately 1.5" to 1.75" low which is insignificant and will have zero effect on target.

Zero at 10 yards move your red dot 1 inch above your point of impact bam zero at 50 yards complete.

That's crazy talk.  Zero at 50.

You don't even have to sight a rifle in at that shot of distance, it is a point and shoot on a short distance like that.  Zero at 50 and heaven forbid if something happens just point and pull the trigger.

In a home defense situation, trying to line up on a target is going to be the least of your worries.

50 yard zero, and then learn to hold over about 1.5".

Thanks  Riflenoob,

1. How do I know if the ammo shoots reliable in my gun? Reliable meaning no jams?

1. So just point and shoot? When I am at the range practicing , should I just point and shoot without quenching eyes trying to use the front sights since the in home defense, i want have time for this?

This

50 yard zero is within a couple of inches up or down out to 220-250 yards depending on load.

Thanks Avila33,

Can you explain that again? I am not sure understand. I do not have a red dot yet.

With irons or a red dot you have a off set from the line if sight to the barrel around 2 inches for most red dots about the same for iron sights prob .5 inches less depending , if you zero the rifle at 50 yds hitting exactly where you want. 20 yds and in your zero will be 1-2 inches low. So you would aim just above your target (about 2 in high) at 13 yds and you should be right on target. For home def i would definetly get a red dot much easier and quicker to use and a light because you gotta identify the threat

Thanks Forest,

I  watch a youtube video explaining hold over at short distance after a zero at 50. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXbkTdFMOSs If I understand correctly, after I zero at 50 yards to be on the bulls eye, I need to move the target in closer, say 10 yards, to determine my offeset and hold over? Because the bullet for my ammo at 50 yards could shoot higher or lower at short ranges. Then I can judge and practice my offset and hold over as needed. Is my understanding correct?

Thanks jblomenberg16,

So basically zero at 50 yards, the learn to raise (ie, hold over)  or move down barrel up 1.5" to hit target at shorter ranges. I know a indoor range that allows shooting up to 50 yards, so this will be great.

Thank you brx123

I am not sure i understand this very well.

Yeah man, you got it. 25 or 50 yard zero, then practice at short ranges. Pretty easy to get a feel for your hold over. It will come second nature in no time.

You got it.  On a standard IPSIC or other silloutte  target you can hold high and get a good idea of where rounds will impact.

Attached File


The sights on your carbine and the barrel are seperated by appx 2.6”. In order to get the bullet to impact in line with the sights the bore must be elevated, the point where your sights line up with the up angle of the bore is your zero point. Anything before that and the bullet is still on its upward trajectory. Since the bore and sights are seperated by 2.6” this is the absolute maximum possible offset before the zero point and this narrows as you approach the zero point.

If you zero at 13 yards you’ll still impact low at distances shorter than that and you’ll have a huge POA/POI discrepancy beyond that as the bullet will be on an extended upward trajectory.

The most supported zero distances I see are the 50 yard and 100 yard zeros. The 50 yard gives you the furthest distance with the least over/under on the POI. The 100 yard will never hit above the sights, always at or under. Both schemes have their own advantages and would work great when you’re familiar with them. All AR zeros will have holdovers at extreme close range.

Bast way to learn is just give it a try at the range , get your 50 yrd zero , then bring your target to 13 yds and youll notice the rounds impacting low and just aim a couple inches higher and youll be on target

Thank you Forest,

I will look for a home defense class for rifle training.

Thanks everyone so far.

Question:

1. Should I zero for 50 yards with iron sights, then practice/training course? Or buy red optics then do a 50 yard zero with red optics on, go practice/ training course?.

Thanks for the explanation King_Mud. I will give it some reading and thought and practice.

For HD, I can honestly say you are way over thinking this, in a HD situation, the rifle will probably never get to your shoulder...Just point and shoot and don't over think it

HD situations are fast moving and quite fluid.

I'm sorry but no, practice with carbine shouldered and aimed shots.  Shoot fast does not mean point-shoot, you'd be just wasting the benefit of having a carbine/shoulder weapon. We use this modified gunsite pistol distance drill - (2) 1-shot to the head @ 3 yds, (1) 2-shots to A-zone centermass at 7 yds, move to to 10 yds and execute (1) 2-shots to A-zone, magazine change, repeat (1) 2-shots to zone.  Finally move to 15 yds (1) 2-shots to A-zone, mag change and shoot an 8" steel plate if you're using pistol, shoot a paper plate if you're using carbine.  All done with an electronic timer, start slow, get good A-zone shots, then speed up as you get better. The timer is what would give you quantifiable results.  Smooth is fast.  A range session for us has quite a few of these drills, repeat and repeat.  Reverse the order and run all of the above distances together in one timed sequence, meaning you complete the entire 4 positions in one string, running toward the 3 yds line.

This is where you learn #1 - Sight off-set at different distances for an AR, #2 - How to shoot with red dot with both eyes open, #3 - How to shoot with fixed magnification optic (like ACOG) at close range.  The most important aspect is drilling in your memory sight offset, all depending on your optic mounting height at these extremely close ranges (from 1.5 to 2.5 when using a 50/250 yds zero).

You can also modify the drill to learn to shoot the carbine canted 45 degrees, aiming only down along the right side (if you're a righty) or left side (if you're lefty).  At 10 yds, you'd find that pointing the muzzle to the bottom of an IPSC size target while shouldered and canting the carbine, would result in an A-zone hit.  This sometime is necessary when you are too close to get on the optic (mostly fixed power ACOG).

Lastly, use whatever zero distance you want but live fire practice with an electronic timer is what's required if you're serious about using a carbine for home defense.  Even if you're using a shotgun, buckshots at these short yardages require the same skills and knowledge.

Good luck!

Do not zero your rifle at 13 yards as other have said.  50 yard zero is what I use.

My 50m zero & 6moa red dot (TA44) works great from 15 to 150m  

Seriously zero at 50 and do some tests at various distances to know your weapon

Yep, get your 50 yard zero dialed in, then work on shooting at various ranges to understand the appropriate hold overs.   What you'll find is that with a 50 yard zero, that at most ranges most of your shots are going to be +/- 2" or so from your point of aim.   That is what people like so much about a 50 yard zero.   The below graphic illustrates this well.   Even after taking a training course, practice is the key and most instructors are going to emphasize that as well.   Shooting accurately is a perishable skill.



What is nice about being within +/-2" or so is that even with ammo variation that will likely add another inch or two to that, a +/- 4" accuracy out to 200 yards is actually acceptable most of the time, even if you were hunting for example.    That error actually decreases as you get closer given the physics of the situation.

So in a close range scenario, ideally you would hold over to make up for the trajectory, but depending on your target, the difference in point of aim and point of impact may not be significant enough to matter.

Some great info here on various zeros and trajectories that might also be helpful.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/RIBZ--Revised-Improved-Battlesight-Zero/18-328143/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/100m-150m-200m-250m-and-300m-Zero-Comparisons-and-Optic-Reticle-Comparisons/18-613947/

you'd need a machine rest and micrometer to determine which ammo was more accurate at 13 yds.

when shooting at very close range your POI will be off from you POA because of the sight height over bore, which is a lot on AR type guns, but it only matters when trying to shoot a bad guy holding a hostage in front of him.  Otherwise it is immaterial, just aim between his shoulders and it is good.

I thought that zeroing at 25 yds got most rifles closer to a 200 yd zero??

50/200, 25/300.

(1) Put target at 13 yards.

(2) Fire shots to find initial bullet impact with initial sight settings.

(3) Adjust sights to bring the point of bullet impact to match the sights.

(4) Done.

That being said, 13 yard zero is not a really good idea as others have already pointed out...

Topic Moved

Wow, thank you so much bravo5two. That is awesome. I have 9mm, ar15, and pump shotgun. I would like to run drills like that using all guns to see which one is comfortable and more fluid efficient with me.

Wow, where can I get this trainin from because I am in home so I need short yardage drills. In range is just stand and shoot.

For a man sized target at 15 yards, 1.5" is insignificant. Zero @ 50 and you have a mean point blank range on a 6" target of ~250 yds

FWIW, a 13 yard zero is virtually useless for anything else.

On a whim, I ran a 13 yard zero through my Strelok+ Pro ballistic calculator.  For a 62 grain bullet at NATO velocity (like M855) from a 16" barrel:

13 yard zero at 100 yards is 15.3" high!

at 200 yards it is 28.1" high!

at 300 yards it is 33.8" high!

it does not get back to zero until almost 600 yards!

Just don't do it.  Stick with the 50/200 zero.

All you have to do is hold about 2" high with a 50 yard zero and you are set.  Even if you forget, at room distance, you'll still hit.

Exactly the point I was hoping to make with the follow on post.  A 50 yard zero is going to have you in a 4-6" "circle" on any target out to 250 yards, which is effective for most needs.

I have a question regarding zero a rifle.

So when I zero for 50 yards (or more):

I stand (or sit) and shot at the bulls eye at 50 yards. Then continue adjust the iron sights (or scope) until I am on the bulleye, right?

So even though I am not very good shooter now (need practice) , its ok for me to zero a rifle at certain distance?

I use standard M193 Ball ammo in all of my rifles.

As others have stated, 50 yard zero is the best all around zero imo. At home defense distances, it's pretty much point at body and fire. You aren't far enough for ballistics and trajectory to take over the round. The only thing you have to take into account is how high the irons are compared to the barrel. That's why aiming center of mass is the best option.

You mean “zero at 50... aim center mass.”

That works too.  For extra precision inside of 50 yards you can hold over.  1.5'' was what I held over when head A zone hits were required in a class.

Yes.

(1) Keep sights on bulls eye.
(2) Fire three rounds - average their point of impact.
(3) adjust sights (iron or optic) to bring bullets point of impact to match sights (bullseye).

Repeat as needed each time as needed for irons & optic (If \ When you ad scope of red dot)