Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » Ammunition
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 7/13/2010 4:56:04 PM EDT
So just going off of what Hornady states about their TAP ammo and that it fragments and doesnt over penetrate, would it be dumb of me to think that they just loaded Vmax bullets into them? Or is the actual round something that is not commercially availible? Or could it be a Vmax and they just arent saying it for fear that people will save the money and buy vmax huntng loads for there Home defense guns?
Link Posted: 7/13/2010 5:01:17 PM EDT
[#1]
The only difference between the 40 grain, 55 grain and 60 grain V-MAX loads and TAP loads is a cannelure and nickel plated case.  They are all poor choices for a personal defense load as they all fail to meet the FBI's minimum penetration requirement.









Link Posted: 7/13/2010 5:14:45 PM EDT
[#2]
Hornady Fail
Link Posted: 7/13/2010 5:51:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Ok so I wasnt crazy for thinking they used the Vmax bullet then. Good to know, and thanks for the info on the FBI standards. What would you prefer then in the 223/556 offering for home defense then? Besides 62 grain steel penetrators.
Link Posted: 7/13/2010 6:00:50 PM EDT
[#4]
75gr Hornady TAP is what works.
Link Posted: 7/13/2010 6:01:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Ok so I wasnt crazy for thinking they used the Vmax bullet then. Good to know, and thanks for the info on the FBI standards. What would you prefer then in the 223/556 offering for home defense then? Besides 62 grain steel penetrators.


left click

Link Posted: 7/13/2010 7:31:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Guess im screwed with my 55gr TAP for home defense
Link Posted: 7/13/2010 7:56:33 PM EDT
[#7]
62 or 70 grain TSX would have been my guess. Looks like a load I'll look into.
Link Posted: 7/13/2010 7:56:51 PM EDT
[#8]
A vmax is a varmint hunting bullet... fast expanding so not to exit/destroy said animals fur.... I really wouldn't want it as a self defense bullet... yes you have 30 of them but the point is to stop the guy not unleash hell inside your house spraying bullets all over the place... maybe look into some heavier type of framenting bullet or a fast expanding hunting bullet that retains its mass.

I'd still rather use a shotgun or large caliber pistol for HD... my 1911 sits in my nightstand.

Mike.
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 9:40:57 AM EDT
[#9]
The 60 grain vmax is brutal, and I would not hesitate to use it for HD.
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 9:53:18 AM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 10:03:38 AM EDT
[#11]
You cannot buy V-Max bullet with cannelures can you?
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 10:10:27 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
The 60 grain vmax is brutal, and I would not hesitate to use it for HD.


I would hesitate.
Total penetration less than 10" according to Hornady's testing
They state 10" but the pic clearly shows 9.5"
I am all for brutality in defense of your life, but I hedge my bets by sticking with ammo that meets minimum FBI requirements.
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 11:35:32 AM EDT
[#13]
Federal T3's FTW
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 12:56:58 PM EDT
[#14]
While the Hornady 55 and 60 GR wouldn't even make my top 10 list, don't think for a second that these bullets just bounce right off of people.  For soft tissue, such as people, they will generally put a bad guy down pretty quick with a good shot, just like the other bullets.  Where these bullets suck is against barriers.  I'd take a 75 GR TAP any day if given a choice, but the 55 and 60 GR bullets are no slouch.
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 1:50:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The 60 grain vmax is brutal, and I would not hesitate to use it for HD.


Can't seem to find "brutality" listed anywhere in the FBI criteria for effective loads.  


Your an intelligent guy, I'm fairly certain you know what I meant.  
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 2:19:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The 60 grain vmax is brutal, and I would not hesitate to use it for HD.


Can't seem to find "brutality" listed anywhere in the FBI criteria for effective loads.  


While I certainly agree, and think all the testing being done these days is advancing self defense ammo by leaps and bounds, sometimes I wonder how we were able to kill each other on a wholesale level without ballistic gelatin and the newest, deepest penetrating, largest opening hollow point.
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 3:24:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The 60 grain vmax is brutal, and I would not hesitate to use it for HD.


Can't seem to find "brutality" listed anywhere in the FBI criteria for effective loads.  


Your an intelligent guy, I'm fairly certain you know what I meant.  


My agency has had two officer involved shootings with AR15's.  The rounds used were 60gr Federal TRU, which uses the same basic bullet as the V-max, the Nosler ballistic tip.  The first shooting was 3 rounds center mass, suspect fell back into their house crawled for 2-3 feet and died.  I would say VERY effective at incapacitation.  Second shooting was one shot to a forearm....round penetrated arm and pretty much destroyed it, the rest of the bullet that made it through the bone lodged in the upper torso.  This persons arm was nuetralized as a threat almost immediately.  

Sure these bullets dont meet the FBI's minimum penetration of 12", but I would not hesitate to bring them to a gun fight.  These rounds are also good for HD as they are more likely to break up after coming into contact with interior walls, in the event u should miss yer mark.  

Are there better rounds out there to use, perhaps, but it depends on yer application I suppose...If you expect yer gonna need a round for barrier penetration, than a V-max or Ballistic tip loading is probably NOT the best choice.
Link Posted: 7/14/2010 5:10:14 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The 60 grain vmax is brutal, and I would not hesitate to use it for HD.


Can't seem to find "brutality" listed anywhere in the FBI criteria for effective loads.  


Your an intelligent guy, I'm fairly certain you know what I meant.  


My agency has had two officer involved shootings with AR15's.  The rounds used were 60gr Federal TRU, which uses the same basic bullet as the V-max, the Nosler ballistic tip.  The first shooting was 3 rounds center mass, suspect fell back into their house crawled for 2-3 feet and died.  I would say VERY effective at incapacitation.  Second shooting was one shot to a forearm....round penetrated arm and pretty much destroyed it, the rest of the bullet that made it through the bone lodged in the upper torso.  This persons arm was nuetralized as a threat almost immediately.  

Sure these bullets dont meet the FBI's minimum penetration of 12", but I would not hesitate to bring them to a gun fight.  These rounds are also good for HD as they are more likely to break up after coming into contact with interior walls, in the event u should miss yer mark.  

Are there better rounds out there to use, perhaps, but it depends on yer application I suppose...If you expect yer gonna need a round for barrier penetration, than a V-max or Ballistic tip loading is probably NOT the best choice.


As a law enforcement officer, you must realize that you can't just swap to barrier blind rounds any time you like when the shit hits the fan.  That's why you carry them from the start.  I don't know any local enforcement agencies that use rounds that do not specifically equal or exceed the FBI requirements...

Link Posted: 7/14/2010 9:11:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:

Second shooting was one shot to a forearm....round penetrated arm and pretty much destroyed it, the rest of the bullet that made it through the bone lodged in the upper torso.  This persons arm was nuetralized as a threat almost immediately.  

We're interested in neutralizing more than just an arm.


Thanks for proving our point for us.  That’s a perfect example of mission failure by a polymer-tipped bullet.  Had your perp been a determined aggressor, like the one the FBI encountered in Miami in 1986, he would have been able to continue firing a weapon with his uninjured arm and possibly killing  innocent people, all because the polymer-tipped bullet failed to penetrate through the vital organs in the thorax after passing through an upper extremity.  You’re simply lucky that he didn’t do just that.  Your example is the exact reason that the FBI standard calls for a penetration of 12-18 inches.

From Dr. G.K. Roberts . . .

“Based on the LE agency and correctional facility shootings I have reviewed over the years, most lightweight 40-60 gr JHP and PT loads would not be ones I would willingly want to rely on to defend myself, my family, or innocent bystanders in a lethal force encounter.”

“Most 40-60 gr PT loads were designed for varmints and offer very shallow penetration depthsurface damage can be quite impressive. Many LE agencies and correctional systems mistakenly adopted such lightweight varmint loads thinking they would reduce “over-penetration” and ricochet risks; in fact, what has been documented in numerous shootings against human adversaries is that these lightweight, high velocity loads are quite adequate for unobstructed frontal shots and most CNS shots, however it is not uncommon for them to lack sufficient penetration to reach the vital organs and vasculature in a adult male aggressor on oblique shots or if intermediate objects (including an outstretched arm) are present. As such, they are not an ideal load for personal defense.”

“Shot placement is NOT just about aiming, it is about what aspect is presented by the target. In most lethal force encounters, the bad guy is NOT standing still in plain frontal anatomic position with hands at the side––in fact, they are usually moving, have their hands extended holding a weapon, and are frequently at an oblique angle. When forced to incapacitate aggressors in lethal force encounters, having a projectile that can penetrate deeply enough in order to ensure disruption of the major organs and blood vessels in the torso from any angle and through excessive adipose tissue, hypertrophied muscle, or intervening anatomic structures, such as a raised arm can be a critical advantage.”



Link Posted: 7/15/2010 5:40:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 7/15/2010 5:45:06 AM EDT
[#21]
Thanks alot Molon, now I gotta replace my damn SD ammo for the 75 TAP.

Thanks for the info, good read do you have the link? id like to read more

Btw whats ur thoughts on using reloads for SD, i have plenty of MK262 clones.
Link Posted: 7/15/2010 5:48:17 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Thanks alot Molon, now I gotta replace my damn SD ammo for the 75 TAP.

Thanks for the info, good read do you have the link? id like to read more

Btw whats ur thoughts on using reloads for SD, i have plenty of MK262 clones.


Legalities aside, the 77 grain SMK would not be as good a choice as the Hornady 75 grain OTM or Nosler 77 grain OTM from a terminal ballistic standpoint.  The 77 SMK has a longer and more variable "ballistic neck" than the Hornady or Nosler bullets.

Link Posted: 7/15/2010 5:51:43 AM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 7/15/2010 7:49:04 AM EDT
[#24]
These variable make a difference in the depth of penetration before the bullet begins to yawl?
Link Posted: 7/15/2010 1:53:32 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:

Second shooting was one shot to a forearm....round penetrated arm and pretty much destroyed it, the rest of the bullet that made it through the bone lodged in the upper torso.  This persons arm was nuetralized as a threat almost immediately.  

We're interested in neutralizing more than just an arm.


Thanks for proving our point for us.  That’s a perfect example of mission failure by a polymer-tipped bullet.  Had your perp been a determined aggressor, like the one the FBI encountered in Miami in 1986, he would have been able to continue firing a weapon with his uninjured arm and possibly killing  innocent people, all because the polymer-tipped bullet failed to penetrate through the vital organs in the thorax after passing through an upper extremity.  You’re simply lucky that he didn’t do just that.  Your example is the exact reason that the FBI standard calls for a penetration of 12-18 inches.



Actually the hit was at an angle, so it really wouldnt have mattered what bullet was used.  In this case the round hit the arm, penetrated bone and basically destroyed it, the rest of the round hit the upper body at an angle, grazing it, and lodged in the breast area.  In this case the round actually performed quite well.  The suspect primary arm was destroyed and the threat nuetralized....had they kept fighting, more shots would have been fired.  Also had the round been one that met the FBI's penetration critaria, it is very possible that the round would have continued downrange into an apartment complex.  Even though a round meets the FBI's minimum penetration depth in ballistic geletin, I wonder how it would actually perform, after hitting hard bone??  

This post is not to try and say the FBI's standard is BS or anything like that...it is to point out that this ammo is sufficiant for what it is being used for/designed for....My agency has decided that the benefit of a ballistic tip type round in an urban enviroment for over penetration outweighs the risk of insuficiant penetration.
Link Posted: 7/15/2010 5:50:36 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
My agency has had two officer involved shootings with AR15's.  The rounds used were 60gr Federal TRU, which uses the same basic bullet as the V-max, the Nosler ballistic tip.  The first shooting was 3 rounds center mass, suspect fell back into their house crawled for 2-3 feet and died.  I would say VERY effective at incapacitation.  Second shooting was one shot to a forearm....round penetrated arm and pretty much destroyed it, the rest of the bullet that made it through the bone lodged in the upper torso.  This persons arm was nuetralized as a threat almost immediately.  

Sure these bullets dont meet the FBI's minimum penetration of 12", but I would not hesitate to bring them to a gun fight.  These rounds are also good for HD as they are more likely to break up after coming into contact with interior walls, in the event u should miss yer mark.  



That sounds like a 50% failure rate, unless that "rest of the bullet" that lodged in the torso happened to penetrate to hit vital organs.  That's kind of the point of the FBI's minimum penetration standards - a round having the ability to pass through something like an outstretched arm and STILL have the ability to get where it needs to go to really incapacitate an attacker.  What you described in the second scenario above is, IMO, exactly the kind of thing that leads to a focus on penetration.  Neutralizing an arm isn't really a success against a determined attacker with two arms.

This isn't supposed to be a discussion that focuses on things like "well I'd hate to get shot by it" or "FMJ has been killing people for decades, it works just fine" or stuff like that.  We, as non-military folks, get the luxury of chosing the BEST rounds for use in the unlikely event that we need to use a weapon for self-defense.  The point of these discussions, and the "best choices for defensive ammo" thread, and all the testing that goes on with terminal ballistics, is to find what the BEST round is, not to identify the plethora of rounds out there that "can" do the job.  ANY bullet can be deadly, and yeah, plain old cast lead bullets have been killing people for centuries.  That doesn't mean that trying to identify the BEST bullets for the job, or recommending one load over another, is just a pointless exercise in semantics.


Not overpenetrating is important to me.  Also, there is no guarantee that a 75grn OTM would have penetrated the arm bone and been fatal either.  Im prettey comfortable with the 60grn vmax for interior HD.  It would not be my first choice where hard targets could be encountered though.
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 8:55:23 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My agency has had two officer involved shootings with AR15's.  The rounds used were 60gr Federal TRU, which uses the same basic bullet as the V-max, the Nosler ballistic tip.  The first shooting was 3 rounds center mass, suspect fell back into their house crawled for 2-3 feet and died.  I would say VERY effective at incapacitation.  Second shooting was one shot to a forearm....round penetrated arm and pretty much destroyed it, the rest of the bullet that made it through the bone lodged in the upper torso.  This persons arm was nuetralized as a threat almost immediately.  

Sure these bullets dont meet the FBI's minimum penetration of 12", but I would not hesitate to bring them to a gun fight.  These rounds are also good for HD as they are more likely to break up after coming into contact with interior walls, in the event u should miss yer mark.  



That sounds like a 50% failure rate, unless that "rest of the bullet" that lodged in the torso happened to penetrate to hit vital organs.  That's kind of the point of the FBI's minimum penetration standards - a round having the ability to pass through something like an outstretched arm and STILL have the ability to get where it needs to go to really incapacitate an attacker.  What you described in the second scenario above is, IMO, exactly the kind of thing that leads to a focus on penetration.  Neutralizing an arm isn't really a success against a determined attacker with two arms.

This isn't supposed to be a discussion that focuses on things like "well I'd hate to get shot by it" or "FMJ has been killing people for decades, it works just fine" or stuff like that.  We, as non-military folks, get the luxury of chosing the BEST rounds for use in the unlikely event that we need to use a weapon for self-defense.  The point of these discussions, and the "best choices for defensive ammo" thread, and all the testing that goes on with terminal ballistics, is to find what the BEST round is, not to identify the plethora of rounds out there that "can" do the job.  ANY bullet can be deadly, and yeah, plain old cast lead bullets have been killing people for centuries.  That doesn't mean that trying to identify the BEST bullets for the job, or recommending one load over another, is just a pointless exercise in semantics.


Not overpenetrating is important to me.  Also, there is no guarantee that a 75grn OTM would have penetrated the arm bone and been fatal either.  Im prettey comfortable with the 60grn vmax for interior HD.  It would not be my first choice where hard targets could be encountered though.


And what happens to the shots you miss?  I understand the good intentions behind using rounds that don't over-penetrate but statistically the majority of shots fired are misses in officer-involved shootings.  That kind of negates the point of your shallow penetrating rounds when they fly past the intended target.
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 11:21:50 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My agency has had two officer involved shootings with AR15's.  The rounds used were 60gr Federal TRU, which uses the same basic bullet as the V-max, the Nosler ballistic tip.  The first shooting was 3 rounds center mass, suspect fell back into their house crawled for 2-3 feet and died.  I would say VERY effective at incapacitation.  Second shooting was one shot to a forearm....round penetrated arm and pretty much destroyed it, the rest of the bullet that made it through the bone lodged in the upper torso.  This persons arm was nuetralized as a threat almost immediately.  

Sure these bullets dont meet the FBI's minimum penetration of 12", but I would not hesitate to bring them to a gun fight.  These rounds are also good for HD as they are more likely to break up after coming into contact with interior walls, in the event u should miss yer mark.  



That sounds like a 50% failure rate, unless that "rest of the bullet" that lodged in the torso happened to penetrate to hit vital organs.  That's kind of the point of the FBI's minimum penetration standards - a round having the ability to pass through something like an outstretched arm and STILL have the ability to get where it needs to go to really incapacitate an attacker.  What you described in the second scenario above is, IMO, exactly the kind of thing that leads to a focus on penetration.  Neutralizing an arm isn't really a success against a determined attacker with two arms.

This isn't supposed to be a discussion that focuses on things like "well I'd hate to get shot by it" or "FMJ has been killing people for decades, it works just fine" or stuff like that.  We, as non-military folks, get the luxury of chosing the BEST rounds for use in the unlikely event that we need to use a weapon for self-defense.  The point of these discussions, and the "best choices for defensive ammo" thread, and all the testing that goes on with terminal ballistics, is to find what the BEST round is, not to identify the plethora of rounds out there that "can" do the job.  ANY bullet can be deadly, and yeah, plain old cast lead bullets have been killing people for centuries.  That doesn't mean that trying to identify the BEST bullets for the job, or recommending one load over another, is just a pointless exercise in semantics.


Not overpenetrating is important to me.  Also, there is no guarantee that a 75grn OTM would have penetrated the arm bone and been fatal either.  Im prettey comfortable with the 60grn vmax for interior HD.  It would not be my first choice where hard targets could be encountered though.


And what happens to the shots you miss?  I understand the good intentions behind using rounds that don't over-penetrate but statistically the majority of shots fired are misses in officer-involved shootings.  That kind of negates the point of your shallow penetrating rounds when they fly past the intended target.


Im not an officer.  I use the 60grn TAP for interior HD.
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 11:36:24 AM EDT
[#29]
I wouldn't get too hung up on the finer details of "what if" .  Use the round that YOU have faith and trust in.  I am a police officer who has dealt with numerous people who have been shot and the one thing they all have in common is none of them have ever said to me. "Damn, i hate it that he shot me, but at least he used a highly fragmenting bullet rather than a deep penetrating one, so i don't hurt as bad"
Link Posted: 7/16/2010 3:43:50 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:

Not overpenetrating is important to me.  Also, there is no guarantee that a 75grn OTM would have penetrated the arm bone and been fatal either.  Im prettey comfortable with the 60grn vmax for interior HD.  It would not be my first choice where hard targets could be encountered though.


And what happens to the shots you miss?  I understand the good intentions behind using rounds that don't over-penetrate but statistically the majority of shots fired are misses in officer-involved shootings.  That kind of negates the point of your shallow penetrating rounds when they fly past the intended target.


Really??  The same thing that happens when u miss with ANY round!  If I was going to plan on missing the target, I would still choose the round whose bullet is more likely to break up on interior/exterior walls if u happen to miss the intended target.  But just for argument sake, what happens when the buillet YOU choose misses its intended target??
Link Posted: 7/17/2010 9:39:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Since I work with SMPrider112 I'm also familiar with the shootings that he is referencing.

Our agency has not issued a .223 round heavier than 60 grains.  The last three being Federal 55 grain 55 BTHP, Hornady 60 grain TAP, and now Federal 55 grain Ballistic Tip TRU.  The results with all three rounds have been very satisfying and I think any change in ammo type is based on better rounds being produced as time goes on.

I think one of the problems here is (as on some other forums) is that data comes out such as the FBI requirements and people take it as gospel without having any context of their own.  I've seen this happen with a lot of subjects, where my own personal experience and training contradicts this information, yet guys on the boards keep putting this info out as if it's their own.

Testing such as the FBI's is not perfect and early on in their testing their penetration requirements were much deeper, and I would hate to see someone base their ammo selection on 18" of penetration.  That plus the fact that not all federal agencies agree with the FBI conclusions, they are just the best known.  

Most people here really like the heavy OTM rounds, which is funny that everyone has adopted this military acronym, since they are still called by their manufacturers, what they always have been Boat tail hollowpoints (perhaps another example of people adopting something and using it, because others do.)  Those rounds wound ballistics are accidental and not what the bullet was designed for.  This tends to limit their range and the performance is almost an afterthought.  

Some of the other barrier blind loads (another new cool term!) just penetrate too deep for Law Enforcement and citizen self defense.  To pick these loads as general issue, when they might be ideal in 5-10% of the shootings we are involved in, would be foolish at best.  While they can perform very well, they are not required in most situations I find myself in and I work urban and rural settings regularly.  Again FBI or someone else's statistics might tell me I'm wrong.

Info and testing is just a piece of the puzzle,not the whole answer.  When actual shootings and experience shows a different answer than testing, we should all pay attention.  BTW last time I checked our agency's hit ratio was somewhere around 90%.

Stay safe
Link Posted: 7/17/2010 9:40:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Not overpenetrating is important to me.  Also, there is no guarantee that a 75grn OTM would have penetrated the arm bone and been fatal either.  Im prettey comfortable with the 60grn vmax for interior HD.  It would not be my first choice where hard targets could be encountered though.


And what happens to the shots you miss?  I understand the good intentions behind using rounds that don't over-penetrate but statistically the majority of shots fired are misses in officer-involved shootings.  That kind of negates the point of your shallow penetrating rounds when they fly past the intended target.


Really??  The same thing that happens when u miss with ANY round!  If I was going to plan on missing the target, I would still choose the round whose bullet is more likely to break up on interior/exterior walls if u happen to miss the intended target.  But just for argument sake, what happens when the buillet YOU choose misses its intended target??


I think you may be missing the point- you are far more likely to miss a shot entirely(which completely negates the purpose of shallow penetrating rounds) than get all of your rounds on target.  No one "plans" on missing, but it happens- A LOT.  So why trade an optimal round for a sub-optimal round for the mythical scenario where all of your shots are fired at a stationary target directly facing you that you can not miss?

ETA- I don't thing anyone here is advocating using depleted uranium AP rounds for SD or LE use- they are saying that heavily fragmenting rounds that offer slightly deeper penetration(2-3") would be a wise choice.  
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 1:14:24 AM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:






My agency has had two officer involved shootings with AR15's.  The rounds used were 60gr Federal TRU, which uses the same basic bullet as the V-max, the Nosler ballistic tip.  The first shooting was 3 rounds center mass, suspect fell back into their house crawled for 2-3 feet and died.  I would say VERY effective at incapacitation.  Second shooting was one shot to a forearm....round penetrated arm and pretty much destroyed it, the rest of the bullet that made it through the bone lodged in the upper torso.  This persons arm was nuetralized as a threat almost immediately.  
Sure these bullets dont meet the FBI's minimum penetration of 12", but I would not hesitate to bring them to a gun fight.  These rounds are also good for HD as they are more likely to break up after coming into contact with interior walls, in the event u should miss yer mark.  
Are there better rounds out there to use, perhaps, but it depends on yer application I suppose...If you expect yer gonna need a round for barrier penetration, than a V-max or Ballistic tip loading is probably NOT the best choice.







Do you happen to know exactly where the three rounds impacted? Three rounds within a lateral inch or two of the spine should immediately incapacitate the subject instead of leaving them the ability to crawl (or shoot) for a bit longer.
If the rounds were indeed in the very center of the torso, then this a perfect example of varmint rounds failing penetrate far enough for instant incapacitation by striking the central nervous system. Luckily, the bad guy decided to try crawling away instead of shooting back for his last few seconds, so it still worked out either way.
Personally, I think police agencies put too much emphasis on overpenetrating bad guys. I don't know of a single case where a bystander was hit by an officer's bullet after going through a bad guy, but there have been many instances where police rounds have not penetrated determined bad guys far enough to incapacitate him.
As for misses, any round with enough penetration to kill a bad guy will have enough penetration to hurt innocents through sheet rock walls, so that's irrelevant.
Originally
Posted By phattmatt:






BTW last time I checked our agency's hit
ratio was somewhere around 90%.












That is outstanding. If you don't mind me asking, how large is your department, and what training did your officers go through to achieve such a high hit ratio?
 

 

 
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 6:27:47 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Since I work with SMPrider112 I'm also familiar with the shootings that he is referencing.

Our agency has not issued a .223 round heavier than 60 grains.  The last three being Federal 55 grain 55 BTHP, Hornady 60 grain TAP, and now Federal 55 grain Ballistic Tip TRU.  The results with all three rounds have been very satisfying and I think any change in ammo type is based on better rounds being produced as time goes on.

I think one of the problems here is (as on some other forums) is that data comes out such as the FBI requirements and people take it as gospel without having any context of their own.  I've seen this happen with a lot of subjects, where my own personal experience and training contradicts this information, yet guys on the boards keep putting this info out as if it's their own.

Testing such as the FBI's is not perfect and early on in their testing their penetration requirements were much deeper, and I would hate to see someone base their ammo selection on 18" of penetration.  That plus the fact that not all federal agencies agree with the FBI conclusions, they are just the best known.  

Most people here really like the heavy OTM rounds, which is funny that everyone has adopted this military acronym, since they are still called by their manufacturers, what they always have been Boat tail hollowpoints (perhaps another example of people adopting something and using it, because others do.)  Those rounds wound ballistics are accidental and not what the bullet was designed for.  This tends to limit their range and the performance is almost an afterthought.  

Some of the other barrier blind loads (another new cool term!) just penetrate too deep for Law Enforcement and citizen self defense.  To pick these loads as general issue, when they might be ideal in 5-10% of the shootings we are involved in, would be foolish at best.  While they can perform very well, they are not required in most situations I find myself in and I work urban and rural settings regularly.  Again FBI or someone else's statistics might tell me I'm wrong.

Info and testing is just a piece of the puzzle,not the whole answer.  When actual shootings and experience shows a different answer than testing, we should all pay attention.  BTW last time I checked our agency's hit ratio was somewhere around 90%.

Stay safe


Amen.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 6:50:32 AM EDT
[#35]




Quoted:

Guess im screwed with my 55gr TAP for home defense




You probably shouldn't use that stuff.  Send it to me and I'll send you some M855 in exchange...



Link Posted: 7/18/2010 7:14:12 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:

Quoted:
BTW last time I checked our agency's hit ratio was somewhere around 90%.

That is outstanding. If you don't mind me asking, how large is your department, and what training did your officers go through to achieve such a high hit ratio?
     


We are third largest in the state....I don't know the exact number of sworn patrol deputies (Something like 170).  We have handgun qualifications twice a year, which includes 8hrs of range training after qualifying, so about 16hrs a year of ongoing firearms training.  Guys who are issued rifles have once a year rifle update training, which is also a qual and 8hrs of range training.  New hired deputies recieve 5 or 6 days of range training as well as the 48hrs of range training at the state academy.  Our firearms program is excellent compared to what I have heard from other local agencies!
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 8:44:53 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:

Since I work with SMPrider112 I'm also familiar with the shootings that he is referencing.


The two anecdotal shootings cited from your department, with their 50% failure rate, are merely a statistically insignificant data point in the national findings.  As has already been posted in this thread, Dr. G.K. Roberts has stated that the findings from “many LE agencies” that have used ballistic-tipped loads, is that “it is not uncommon for them to lack sufficient penetration to reach the vital organs and vasculature in a adult male aggressor on oblique shots or if intermediate objects (including an outstretched arm) are present. As such, they are not an ideal load for personal defense.”





Quoted:

I think one of the problems here is (as on some other forums) is that data comes out such as the FBI requirements and people take it as gospel without having any context of their own.



Nobody here takes the FBI requirements on blind faith or “gospel” as you call it.   We take it as recommendations that are based on scientifically obtained facts and that are intended to give us the greatest advantage in a lethal force encounter.  The only “context” that is necessary is what round is most likely to achieve the most rapid physiological incapacitation of an aggressor.  “The anatomy and physiology of criminals does not change depending on whether it is a home owner, LE officer, or solider who is forced into a defensive lethal force encounter to stop them...” says Dr. G. K. Roberts.





Quoted:

I've seen this happen with a lot of subjects, where my own personal experience and training contradicts this information, yet guys on the boards keep putting this info out as if it's their own.


Your "personal experience and training" does not alter the scientific fact that 12+ inches of penetration is required to perforate the heart from an oblique shot through the upper extremity.

Your “personal experience” of two anecdotal shootings from a small police department is statistically insignificant.  What is significant, are the overall scientific FACTS.  None of the prudent members of this site “keep putting . . . info out as if” it is our own.  We clearly site the source of our information from the leading EXPERTS in the field of terminal ballistics such as Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. G.K. Roberts, the FBI, etc.





The Visible Man






Quoted:

Testing such as the FBI's is not perfect and early on in their testing their penetration requirements were much deeper, and I would hate to see someone base their ammo selection on 18" of penetration



The FBI penetration requirement is and has been since 1989, 12” -18” of penetration in bare ballistic gelatin.  Again, their requirement is based on mountains of scientific facts, not two anecdotal shootings from a small police department.  Your opinion of what you would “hate to see” is irrelevant.  Again, it’s scientific facts that matter.  It is quite likely that several FBI agents in Miami would still be alive if they had been issued ammution that had a penetration depth of 12"-18".

If you think that you are more knowledgeable on the subject matter than the FBI, by all means, post the data from your volumes of research conducted on the subject matter that includes not just gel testing, but statistically significant data of actual shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, post-mortem data and/or surgical findings, properly conducted ethical animal test results and laboratory testing.





Quoted:


Most people here really like the heavy OTM rounds, which is funny that everyone has adopted this military acronym, since they are still called by their manufacturers, what they always have been Boat tail hollowpoints (perhaps another example of people adopting something and using it, because others do.)



Your act of resorting to arguing semantics of a bullet name is just an indication of your failed position.  Since you’re insinuating that we’re all "posers"  who blindly follow the crowd, let me explain to you what you obviously fail to understand.  The “boat tail hollow point” bullets being discussed do not function as hollow point bullets, thus making the OTM moniker the more appropriate descriptor.




Quoted:

Those rounds wound ballistics are accidental and not what the bullet was designed for . . .



This is one of the lamest parts of your argument. Who cares what the OTM bullet was “designed for”?  All that matters is how the OTM bullet performs.  Just to point out the hypocrisy in your statement, ballistic-tipped bullets were “designed for” shooting small furry critters, not human beings.  





Quoted:

This tends to limit their range and the performance is almost an afterthought.



FACT:  The heavy OTM bullets have better terminal ballistic properties than ballistic-tipped bullets at ANY RANGE likely to be encountered in a self defense shooting.  Also for your edification, the Hornady 75 grain T2 bullet was specifically designed for feeding in the AR-15 platform along with the best terminal ballistic properties of any .223/5.56mm bullet available.




Quoted:

Some of the other barrier blind loads (another new cool term!) just penetrate too deep for Law Enforcement and citizen self defense. To pick these loads as general issue, when they might be ideal in 5-10% of the shootings we are involved in, would be foolish at best.



Fabricate statistics much?  Please post a credible, documented source citing a national  “5 – 10%” figure.  





Quoted:

Info and testing is just a piece of the puzzle,not the whole answer. When actual shootings and experience shows a different answer than testing, we should all pay attention.



You’re the one who obviously hasn't been    paying attention.  The penetration recommendations espoused by Dr. G.K. Roerts and the FBI are based on volumous cases of “CONUS OIS incidents, as well as OCONUS combat results, shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, post-mortem data and/or surgical findings, properly conducted ethical animal test results and laboratory testing;” not two anecdotal shootings from a small police department.

Link Posted: 7/18/2010 7:42:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Please point out the failure.  The subject was stopped with one shot.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 7:46:06 PM EDT
[#39]
The SWAT team at my agency carry 55gr. TAP ammo I believe.....even though they use the MP5 usually for entry etc.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 8:52:21 PM EDT
[#40]
I think some people spend way to much time watching movies where people get shot and die instantly and believe it. 1 shot in some situations may not be enough. And in others it might be a miracle that, that one round was perfectly placed and it did what it was supposed to do against organs, tissue, whatever it might be that it dropped the guy DRT. However just because the guy didn't die instantly that does not constitute a failure. The round impacted and caused enough damage to incapacitate him without any more damage being caused by the PERP.  Sounds like a 100% success to me. But of course I cant quote any "EXPERTS" that would say otherwise. I'll take real world results over what some scientist in a white coat has to say. Ive never been in a law enforcement situation. I have been in a CQB situation in the Marines. I understand the the scenarios are worlds apart, but in the end the result is the same. Kill the bad guy. So before people go and start tearing this guys posts apart and nitpick every little thing he says, maybe you should sit on all that EXPERT shit and listen to what a person in a real world situation has to say. He never said that what happened in his situation was the "gospel" or that the FBI is wrong. He just doesnt agree with it because of his real life encounter.
Add up all the law enforcement shootings in the past year then see how many were FBI related and how many were local police agencies. Then see who is really putting all this EXPERT opinion to the test. Guarentee local agencies have been involved in alot more shootings.
Im sure the FBI has their reasons for 18 inches of penetration, but for god sakes are they expecting to shoot alot of 300 pounders? Im 5'8'' and 175 pounds and from my outer shoulder to my heart is only approx. 9 inches. Unless they are talking about a complete pass thru from shoulder to shoulder. Havent read the FBI standards except for what MOLON has posted time and again. So Im just curious as to why it appears to me that they need a complete shoulder to shoulder pass thru for a bullet to be successful. Anyone care to educate me as to their reasoning?

Link Posted: 7/18/2010 8:54:10 PM EDT
[#41]
BTW how in the hell did my question.... "Is the hornady TAP round a VMAX projectile?" get to all this arguing crap?
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 11:12:19 PM EDT
[#42]
Like I have said numerous times, only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old 1033 M16A1 than with some other guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year.

A few agencies around here use 60 gr TAP PT and several others use 75 gr TAP OTM––both work adequately on shots against unobstructed targets; if I had to, I'd be OK using either as an entry load, with preference for the 75 gr T2 loading.  

Personally, for general patrol issue, I'd rather have a projectile that works better against vehicles and other intermediate barriers.  There was a medium size agency hereabouts that used to issue the Win 50 gr PT Silvertip load due to perceived concerns regarding "overpenetration" in an urban environment.  That seemed a good idea until they got into a shootout with a suspect barricaded in a structure with thick glass windows––none of the .223 projectiles were able to defeat the glass and retain enough mass to penetrate the suspect and cause an incapacitating injury.  That agency has subsequently switched to a barrier capable load.

Other agencies in this area choose to carry two loads––a fragmenting design for entry/CQB and a barrier blind load for use around vehicles and on obstructed targets.

The 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical––LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle––P223T2), along with the Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr bonded JSP, Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP, Swift 75 gr Scirrocco PT, as well as the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are all great projectiles and offer acceptable intermediate barrier capability.

Pick a load that best meets your mission requirements, purchase a lot of ammo, then practice a lot and stop worrying about ammo nuances...
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 12:39:46 AM EDT
[#43]



Quoted:


I think some people spend way to much time watching movies where people get shot and die instantly and believe it. 1 shot in some situations may not be enough. And in others it might be a miracle that, that one round was perfectly placed and it did what it was supposed to do against organs, tissue, whatever it might be that it dropped the guy DRT. However just because the guy didn't die instantly that does not constitute a failure. The round impacted and caused enough damage to incapacitate him without any more damage being caused by the PERP.  Sounds like a 100% success to me. But of course I cant quote any "EXPERTS" that would say otherwise. I'll take real world results over what some scientist in a white coat has to say. Ive never been in a law enforcement situation. I have been in a CQB situation in the Marines. I understand the the scenarios are worlds apart, but in the end the result is the same. Kill the bad guy. So before people go and start tearing this guys posts apart and nitpick every little thing he says, maybe you should sit on all that EXPERT shit and listen to what a person in a real world situation has to say. He never said that what happened in his situation was the "gospel" or that the FBI is wrong. He just doesnt agree with it because of his real life encounter.

Add up all the law enforcement shootings in the past year then see how many were FBI related and how many were local police agencies. Then see who is really putting all this EXPERT opinion to the test. Guarentee local agencies have been involved in alot more shootings.

Im sure the FBI has their reasons for 18 inches of penetration, but for god sakes are they expecting to shoot alot of 300 pounders? Im 5'8'' and 175 pounds and from my outer shoulder to my heart is only approx. 9 inches. Unless they are talking about a complete pass thru from shoulder to shoulder. Havent read the FBI standards except for what MOLON has posted time and again. So Im just curious as to why it appears to me that they need a complete shoulder to shoulder pass thru for a bullet to be successful. Anyone care to educate me as to their reasoning?





Where do you think the scientists in white coats are getting their information from?  Do you think the information Molon is posting is based solely on the 1986 Miami shootout?  Nobody here is going to claim that a 60gr Vmax is not a killer.  The point is that there really nothing that a 60gr VMax can do that a 75gr OTM can't do much, much better.  Given that I can buy Hornady TAP FPD 75gr for the same exact price as the 60gr VMax, there's really no good reason for me to get the 60gr ammunition as a self defense round.



 
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 5:57:50 AM EDT
[#44]
Take everything you read with a grain of salt... especially on forums.

You guys have an officer stating the success of a given ammo nuetralizing a threat.... and you guys are saying that "he did it wrong" and that the FBI states that the ammo you used is wrong... you should have used "this" ammo instead.... that arguement is infinite... well maybe you should have used an AR chambered in 308?  Possibly a 20mm cannon instead becuase what happens if the bad guy hides behind some armored truck?

Everyone says that XXgr ammo isn't good for stopping anyone... but I don't see anyone lining up to prove this.

This topic can be very well solved by simply saying that there are better alternatives to HD than the AR chambered in 223 that are A- exponentially more effective, B - Cheaper, C - Easier to use in a SHTF situation.


MIke.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 11:11:35 AM EDT
[#45]
Part of the problem is that guys don't really understand what the recommendations mean and they take it literally.  Just because the 55 and 60 GR V-Max bullets don't make the list, it doesn't mean that they absolutely are worthless.  I'll use a race car as an analogy.  If the Hornady 75 gr bullets are like a Corvette GT1 race car, it doesn't mean that the 55 and 60 GR varmint bullets are used Yugos, it means they are more like a Porsche GT2 race car.  Not as good, but still decent choice.

And in both of the examples, both threats were stopped.  That is a 100% success rate.  Ive spoken with several people who have personally witnessed someone getting shot in an arm with a .223 and every single one has said that the arm was nearly torn off and the fight was over.

Worry less about bullet selection and worry more about training and shot placement.  And if the first bullet doesn't put the bad guy down, you have 29 more.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 12:57:25 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:

Worry less about bullet selection and worry more about training and shot placement.  And if the first bullet doesn't put the bad guy down, you have 29 more.


This couldn't have been said any better.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 1:05:18 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:

And in both of the examples, both threats were stopped.  That is a 100% success rate.  Ive spoken with several people who have personally witnessed someone getting shot in an arm with a .223 and every single one has said that the arm was nearly torn off and the fight was over.

While in Boot Camp at Edson's Range my entire platoon watched as they carried another recruit to a civilian medical chopper because he shot himself in the upper leg. They were carrying him and another drill instructor was carrying his leg that appeared to be only attached by a few ligaments. Later our drill instructors told us that the recruit had done it on purpose.  And that was with a M855 ammo. I cant imagine what a 75grain VMAX would do to a chest cavity. Granted it may not penetrate more than a few inches but I'm sure it would turn the insides into mush.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 1:13:59 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:

Worry less about bullet selection and worry more about training and shot placement.  And if the first bullet doesn't put the bad guy down, you have 29 more.



AMEN!  

It is as they say...

Two hits with a 22lr is better than 6 misses with a 357mag.

Mike.


Link Posted: 7/20/2010 1:23:03 PM EDT
[#49]
I shoot a lot of groundhogs with the 75 grain Hornady BTHP.  My reloads get me right at 2710 fps out of a 20 inch rifle.  Exit wounds are very large and irregular out to 300 yards.  I don't know if it is tumbling or fragmenting in that space of about 6" but whatever it is doing works well.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 3:40:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Overpenetrating and deflected "hard" bullets do kill unintended targets, despite what the "penetration" obsessed might tell you. There is no one sigle solution.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Page AR-15 » Ammunition
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top