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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/24/2002 3:33:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2002 3:35:25 AM EDT by DevL]
I have heard reports of this round but can get no confirmation from the bullet manufacturers it exists nor the 77 grain Nosler match bullet. In other discussions people seem to claim the US Military is using uncanelured bullets. So to clear this up once and for all can someone please post pics of the 75 grain canelured bullet and the 77 grain Nosler bullet.

Also, what is the 75 grain TAP round being fired out of in the ammo FAQ (gelatin photo)? Is it a commercial TAP out of a 16" barrel or military out of a 14.5" barrel or what?
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 7:08:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CANADIAN_TACTICAL:
DevL - the 75gr Round HAS a canelure the 77gr SMK does not (as of yet) have one.
The Gelatin Photo
Hornady
75 gr Match
BTHP/TAP
at 2540 f/s
pen = 13.0”
5.56 mm Match Grade Bullets -- 16” 1/7 twist barrel



The 77 grain that is being considered for use is a cannelured Nosler. The uncannelured SMK is probably going to lose out because Sierra doesn't seem to want to bother.

I believe the shot in the picture was uncannelured TAP 75 fired from a 16".
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 8:36:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CANADIAN_TACTICAL:
Tatj - sorry I should have been clearer.
I guess I should have said the original 77gr (SMK) does not have a canelure.



No, yer right. SMK does not have a cannelure and they are resisting adding one. I was just pointing out that this might mean a switch to Nosler.


I clipped the caption -
75 gr Match
BTHP/TAP
at 2540 f/s
pen = 13.0”
5.56 mm Match Grade Bullets -- 16” 1/7 twist barrel
- from the origninal Adobe PDF photo



Yep, that sounds right from what I remember.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 11:12:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
So to clear this up once and for all can someone please post pics of the 75 grain canelured bullet



I too would love to see a pic of a canelured Hornady 75Gn bullet. There has been too much speculation about this bullet and I suspect the canulered bullet is "vaporware".
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 11:23:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2002 11:34:26 AM EDT by AR15fan]
FWIW I just pulled one bullet each from a Hornady TAP 75Gn, a Hornady Match 75Gn, and a Black Hills 75Gn. All were loaded with an identical Un-canelured BTHP bullet.

Both Hornady loads used a visually identical cylendrical powder (not ball). I believe Hornady Match 75Gn and Hornady TAP 75Gn are identical ammo in different packaging.

The Black hills load uses a very fine spherical powder.

None of these loads show any evidence of a case mouth sealant.

Both Hornady loads took two blows with the kinetic bullet puller to pull the bullet. The BH load took 5 wacks!

Link Posted: 9/24/2002 12:36:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I too would love to see a pic of a canelured Hornady 75Gn bullet. There has been too much speculation about this bullet and I suspect the canulered bullet is "vaporware".



I have very good and very reputable sources that tell me the cannelured 75gr Hornady bullet does in fact exist. They have seen them, they have tested them, and they say the terminal effects are identical to the non-cannelured bullet. The cannelure was simply added to prevent some bullet setback problems that were ocurring, like Tatja pointed out in another thread. There is a push to get Hornady to begin using the cannelured bullet in the LE line of ammo.

I will see about getting a picture, but even if I post one, how will you know what it is?
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 5:09:20 PM EDT
Now, what is bad about bullet setback-unless its so bad that its driving half the bullet into the case-I know that would be bad. How much is it setting back, how often is it occuring and what is causing it?
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 6:27:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Now, what is bad about bullet setback



It increases pressure
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 10:20:42 PM EDT
So I take it we are dealing with knife edge loads here?
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 4:18:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
So I take it we are dealing with knife edge loads here?



In some instances setback with un-cannelured projectiles can push them WAY down into the case neck. This results in a solid block of compressed powder. –KABOOM- In other instances setback simply results in an OAL variance of a few thousandths. That .001-.005 setback can cause a bad extreme spread in MV.

+- 100fps in MV results in vertical stringing, That stringing can be bad enough to cause misses at distances over 500 meters... A serious consideration in what was supposed to be a load specifically for longer shots.

Not addressed is the fact that a cannelure (specifically a roll cannelure) causes the jacket to separate from the core. This causes inaccuracies. The jacket on a Match King is too thin to "lathe cannelure"... Leaving the smk sol as it were.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 8:38:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2002 8:39:39 AM EDT by brouhaha]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By DevL:
So to clear this up once and for all can someone please post pics of the 75 grain canelured bullet



I too would love to see a pic of a canelured Hornady 75Gn bullet. There has been too much speculation about this bullet and I suspect the canulered bullet is "vaporware".



OK. You asked, now you shall receive.

I got this photo from a friend of mine in the Marines...

On top is the cannelured 75gr Hornady, and on bottom is the non-cannelured 75gr found in the TAP WE can get. Does this prove it to you?



Link Posted: 9/25/2002 10:35:06 AM EDT
Mmmmm...sorry, Brou, I still don't believe it. After all, that could be a photoshop job.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 10:42:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2002 10:44:57 AM EDT by AR15fan]
Thanks for the Pic. Prvoe it to me? Of course not. Not until i hold one in my hand a weight it on a scale. But I find the pic much more credible than a dozen of the "My friend, has a brother, who knows a Navy seal armorer, who said...." posts, which until now is all we had.

It appears the canelured bullet uses a case mouth sealant too.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 4:08:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Thanks for the Pic. Prvoe it to me? Of course not. Not until i hold one in my hand a weight it on a scale. But I find the pic much more credible than a dozen of the "My friend, has a brother, who knows a Navy seal armorer, who said...." posts, which until now is all we had.

It appears the canelured bullet uses a case mouth sealant too.



Believe it or not we don't just make this stuff up as we go along.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 4:18:29 PM EDT
What I dont understand is if they make it why we cant buy it? If Hornady sells it and its not illegal why cant a distributor pick some up and sell it to the civilian market? We would all kill for this ammo. Winchester Ranger ammo is LEO only but if you want to pay enough you can get it... hell you can even get PEQ2 lasers with enough cash!
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 8:53:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2002 8:55:49 PM EDT by tatjana]

Originally Posted By DevL:
What I dont understand is if they make it why we cant buy it? If Hornady sells it and its not illegal why cant a distributor pick some up and sell it to the civilian market? We would all kill for this ammo. Winchester Ranger ammo is LEO only but if you want to pay enough you can get it... hell you can even get PEQ2 lasers with enough cash!



It's not really that big a deal. TAP 75 grain LE is quite good ammo. The extra velocity is nice, but not totally essential.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 11:17:51 PM EDT
Is there any particular reason why Hornady packages their TAP ammunition in both 20 and 25-round packages? Most of the suppliers that I've seen carry the 25-round boxes. Thanks.

Andy
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 11:58:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tatjana:

Originally Posted By DevL:
What I dont understand is if they make it why we cant buy it? If Hornady sells it and its not illegal why cant a distributor pick some up and sell it to the civilian market? We would all kill for this ammo. Winchester Ranger ammo is LEO only but if you want to pay enough you can get it... hell you can even get PEQ2 lasers with enough cash!



It's not really that big a deal. TAP 75 grain LE is quite good ammo. The extra velocity is nice, but not totally essential.



OK I could say the same thing about 55 grain loads not loaded to M193 specs. It will still fragment but not as far out as real M193. Also there is the matter of the sealed neck and cannelure to aid in reliability. Would you feel equally well armed with PMC 55 grn fmj as you would with Q3131a? I wouldnt...
Link Posted: 9/26/2002 5:27:51 AM EDT

It's not really that big a deal. TAP 75 grain LE is quite good ammo. The extra velocity is nice, but not totally essential.


It may not be totally essential in a 1/7 barrel; but I'm curious whether it may be more important in a 16" 1/9 barrel? Some people have mentioned issues stabilizing the 75gr stuff out of a 1/9 barrel.

I haven't seen it firsthand yet myself; but I'm curious just how close the 1/9 is to being insufficient to stabilize the 75gr. TAP round. If its right on the line a little extra velocity might be an issue.
Link Posted: 9/26/2002 2:31:19 PM EDT
Well if I win Eric's football pool this weekend, we will find out how it works in a 1in9
Link Posted: 9/26/2002 3:47:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By tatjana:

Originally Posted By DevL:
What I dont understand is if they make it why we cant buy it? If Hornady sells it and its not illegal why cant a distributor pick some up and sell it to the civilian market? We would all kill for this ammo. Winchester Ranger ammo is LEO only but if you want to pay enough you can get it... hell you can even get PEQ2 lasers with enough cash!



It's not really that big a deal. TAP 75 grain LE is quite good ammo. The extra velocity is nice, but not totally essential.



OK I could say the same thing about 55 grain loads not loaded to M193 specs. It will still fragment but not as far out as real M193. Also there is the matter of the sealed neck and cannelure to aid in reliability. Would you feel equally well armed with PMC 55 grn fmj as you would with Q3131a? I wouldnt...



Well, this is true. But at some point "perfect" becomes the enemy of "good enough." 75 grain TAP LE is excellent ammo. It's hard (impossible?) to get the military loadings. The question is, is it worth loading yourself?

Maybe so.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 4:09:31 PM EDT
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