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Posted: 1/2/2007 12:24:14 PM EDT
How do you guys with small kids and use an AR for home defense store them.  I'm trying to find a way to keep the gun away from my children and still have quick access to it.  
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 12:30:28 PM EDT
Hidden.

My daughter also knows what guns are, what they do, and to not touch them without me.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 12:41:48 PM EDT
I keep em out of sight but the kids..2..know what they are and that we have em...once you take away the curiosity factor your good to go...but keep em hidden,out of site or locked up...everything I have is locked up except for a handgun thats hidden but accesible to me.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 1:52:24 PM EDT
AR15 = $1000
Sentry Safe from Academy = $500
Kids staying alive to terrorize you in their teenage years = Priceless.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 1:58:14 PM EDT
choose ammo wisely...i'm betting .223 goes through many sheets of drywall before stopping.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:00:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2007 8:54:50 AM EDT by AzzKicker]
First off I wouldn't use a AR for home defense.  Over penetration would be problemo number 1.  Second, Too big, even the shortest of barrels would still make it heavy and long and chances are in case of a real emergency you would be fumbling it around.

A good .40, .45 caliber pistol is a way better home defense gun to keep locked up under your bed.  Use that as your first choice of defense and keep the AR locked in a safe where you can easily get to in case you need more firepower which I seriously doubt.


The only other choice I see is to keep AR under your bed but hide mags somewhere else.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:02:35 PM EDT
I will not kidproof my guns, but I will gunproof my kids.


90$ Safe from Academy=safety for a 550$ M1, 150$ SKS, 750$ AR15, and a 500$ AKM.

Peace of mind knowing that zombies, JBTs, Katricians, Aliens, and car wash punks are cowering in fear-PRICELESS!

Let's not count ammo, this is an exspensive hobby!

Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:10:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:12:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2007 2:14:08 PM EDT by LattimerII]

Originally Posted By Einstein:
AR15 = $1000
Sentry Safe from Academy = $500 around $300 now for 14 gun Sentry
Kids staying alive to terrorize you in their teenage years = Priceless.


Not a bad price considering the peace of mind factor.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:14:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
I will not kidproof my guns, but I will gunproof my kids.


+1000!

When will people realize this? When firearms are hidden from children and they are not taught the essentials they aren't learning anything that will benefit them, but will make them curious... and most likely that will be when your NOT around. I was Taught what a Firearm could do from a very young age and I also learned a form of respect that alot of kids need to learn with firearms.

... And don't forget to take them shooting, too.

Nathan
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:29:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:
First off I wouldn't use a AR for home defense.  Over penetration would be problemo number 1.

Awe Geez not this crap again.

.223 is FAR less likely to be a problem after passing through some drywall than any other 'typical' home defense round (9mm, .45 ACP, 12 gauge buckshot etc).  Please consult the Ammo Oracle or any of these open source articles:


R.K. Taubert, ".223 for CQB", Florida SWAT Association News, Fall 1997 (also presented in Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement, Jan 1997).

Gunsite Training Center Staff, "The Call-Out Bag: A Comparison of .223 Penetration Versus Handgun Calibers", The Tactical Edge, pp. 63-64, Summer 1994.

"Comparison of the Wound Ballistic Potential of 9mm vs. 5.56 (.223) Cartridges for Law Enforcement Entry Applications", Gary K. Roberts and Michael E. Bullian, AFTE Journal, 25 (2):142-147, April 1993.




Second, Too big, even the shortest of barrels would still make it heavy and long and chances are in case of a real emergency you would be fumbling it around.

Another BS statement.

M4 type carbines are routinely used by Military and LEOs for building clearing and they don't have problems.  Matter of fact if you compare the profile of a shooter with an M4 to one holding a handgun in a proper presentation you'll find realistically there is very little difference in the distance from the muzzle to the back of the shooter.



The only other choice I see is to keep AR under your bed but hid Clips somewhere else.

Do you do your "AzzKicking" playing X-Box ?


What crawled up your ass?

Don't confuse LEO and MIL guys with training to some of the n00bs on this board who have cool AR's and want it for Home Defense.

Also, what would be easier? To grab a pistol under the bed or grab an AR under the bed with the clip sticking out, FSB sticking out, Pistol grip sticking out.  

Seriously. I love AR's but for a simple home defense gun there are better options.  That was all.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:31:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:
First off I wouldn't use a AR for home defense.  Over penetration would be problemo number 1.

Awe Geez not this crap again.

.223 is FAR less likely to be a problem after passing through some drywall than any other 'typical' home defense round (9mm, .45 ACP, 12 gauge buckshot etc).  Please consult the Ammo Oracle or any of these open source articles:


R.K. Taubert, ".223 for CQB", Florida SWAT Association News, Fall 1997 (also presented in Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement, Jan 1997).

Gunsite Training Center Staff, "The Call-Out Bag: A Comparison of .223 Penetration Versus Handgun Calibers", The Tactical Edge, pp. 63-64, Summer 1994.

"Comparison of the Wound Ballistic Potential of 9mm vs. 5.56 (.223) Cartridges for Law Enforcement Entry Applications", Gary K. Roberts and Michael E. Bullian, AFTE Journal, 25 (2):142-147, April 1993.




Second, Too big, even the shortest of barrels would still make it heavy and long and chances are in case of a real emergency you would be fumbling it around.

Another BS statement.

M4 type carbines are routinely used by Military and LEOs for building clearing and they don't have problems.  Matter of fact if you compare the profile of a shooter with an M4 to one holding a handgun in a proper presentation you'll find realistically there is very little difference in the distance from the muzzle to the back of the shooter.



The only other choice I see is to keep AR under your bed but hid Clips somewhere else.

Do you do your "AzzKicking" playing X-Box ?


What crawled up your ass?

Don't confuse LEO and MIL guys with training to some of the n00bs on this board who have cool AR's and want it for Home Defense.

Also, what would be easier? To grab a pistol under the bed or grab an AR under the bed with the clip sticking out, FSB sticking out, Pistol grip sticking out.  

Seriously. I love AR's but for a simple home defense gun there are better options.  That was all.


*Cough, Cough* Magazine *Cough*

I don't see how the FSB would be sticking out if you had your Mag Well and Pistol grip sticking out one way...
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:35:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2007 2:37:19 PM EDT by Orange_Neck]
ARs use magazines while long arms like the Garand use clips.

ETA: oh well, somebody beat me to it.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:38:46 PM EDT
Forget the AR's and Pistols for home defense and get a Barret.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:41:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:43:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:
First off I wouldn't use a AR for home defense.  Over penetration would be problemo number 1.

Awe Geez not this crap again.

.223 is FAR less likely to be a problem after passing through some drywall than any other 'typical' home defense round (9mm, .45 ACP, 12 gauge buckshot etc).  Please consult the Ammo Oracle or any of these open source articles:


R.K. Taubert, ".223 for CQB", Florida SWAT Association News, Fall 1997 (also presented in Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement, Jan 1997).

Gunsite Training Center Staff, "The Call-Out Bag: A Comparison of .223 Penetration Versus Handgun Calibers", The Tactical Edge, pp. 63-64, Summer 1994.

"Comparison of the Wound Ballistic Potential of 9mm vs. 5.56 (.223) Cartridges for Law Enforcement Entry Applications", Gary K. Roberts and Michael E. Bullian, AFTE Journal, 25 (2):142-147, April 1993.




Second, Too big, even the shortest of barrels would still make it heavy and long and chances are in case of a real emergency you would be fumbling it around.

Another BS statement.

M4 type carbines are routinely used by Military and LEOs for building clearing and they don't have problems.  Matter of fact if you compare the profile of a shooter with an M4 to one holding a handgun in a proper presentation you'll find realistically there is very little difference in the distance from the muzzle to the back of the shooter.



The only other choice I see is to keep AR under your bed but hid Clips somewhere else.

Do you do your "AzzKicking" playing X-Box ?


What crawled up your ass?

Don't confuse LEO and MIL guys with training to some of the n00bs on this board who have cool AR's and want it for Home Defense.

Also, what would be easier? To grab a pistol under the bed or grab an AR under the bed with the clip sticking out, FSB sticking out, Pistol grip sticking out.  

Seriously. I love AR's but for a simple home defense gun there are better options.  That was all.


AzzKicker,

You are new to the site, so you have a little to learn.  Yes it is your opinion that other firearms are better than an AR for HD, but there is a lot of research to prove you wrong.  Secondly your posting on an AR site stating the AR isn't the best HD firearm, and many people here believes it is the best, and can point out several facts to prove their point.  Also have your facts and terminology correct before posting or you will be flamed, i.e. Clips are to hold paper together or to hold up your wife's hair, and magazines are used to hold ammo that gets cycled into an AR.

Oh yeah, if you ever post a picture of you holding your firarms, please, please, please, don't have your finger on the trigger unless there are flames coming out of the barrel and brass flying throught the air!!!!
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:44:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:
First off I wouldn't use a AR for home defense.  Over penetration would be problemo number 1.

Awe Geez not this crap again.

.223 is FAR less likely to be a problem after passing through some drywall than any other 'typical' home defense round (9mm, .45 ACP, 12 gauge buckshot etc).  Please consult the Ammo Oracle or any of these open source articles:


R.K. Taubert, ".223 for CQB", Florida SWAT Association News, Fall 1997 (also presented in Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement, Jan 1997).

Gunsite Training Center Staff, "The Call-Out Bag: A Comparison of .223 Penetration Versus Handgun Calibers", The Tactical Edge, pp. 63-64, Summer 1994.

"Comparison of the Wound Ballistic Potential of 9mm vs. 5.56 (.223) Cartridges for Law Enforcement Entry Applications", Gary K. Roberts and Michael E. Bullian, AFTE Journal, 25 (2):142-147, April 1993.




Second, Too big, even the shortest of barrels would still make it heavy and long and chances are in case of a real emergency you would be fumbling it around.

Another BS statement.

M4 type carbines are routinely used by Military and LEOs for building clearing and they don't have problems.  Matter of fact if you compare the profile of a shooter with an M4 to one holding a handgun in a proper presentation you'll find realistically there is very little difference in the distance from the muzzle to the back of the shooter.



The only other choice I see is to keep AR under your bed but hid Clips somewhere else.

Do you do your "AzzKicking" playing X-Box ?


Good stuff

As soon as I read the original post I knew such a response was coming.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:47:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:
First off I wouldn't use a AR for home defense.  Over penetration would be problemo number 1.

Awe Geez not this crap again.

.223 is FAR less likely to be a problem after passing through some drywall than any other 'typical' home defense round (9mm, .45 ACP, 12 gauge buckshot etc).  Please consult the Ammo Oracle or any of these open source articles:


R.K. Taubert, ".223 for CQB", Florida SWAT Association News, Fall 1997 (also presented in Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement, Jan 1997).

Gunsite Training Center Staff, "The Call-Out Bag: A Comparison of .223 Penetration Versus Handgun Calibers", The Tactical Edge, pp. 63-64, Summer 1994.

"Comparison of the Wound Ballistic Potential of 9mm vs. 5.56 (.223) Cartridges for Law Enforcement Entry Applications", Gary K. Roberts and Michael E. Bullian, AFTE Journal, 25 (2):142-147, April 1993.




Second, Too big, even the shortest of barrels would still make it heavy and long and chances are in case of a real emergency you would be fumbling it around.

Another BS statement.

M4 type carbines are routinely used by Military and LEOs for building clearing and they don't have problems.  Matter of fact if you compare the profile of a shooter with an M4 to one holding a handgun in a proper presentation you'll find realistically there is very little difference in the distance from the muzzle to the back of the shooter.



The only other choice I see is to keep AR under your bed but hid Clips somewhere else.

Do you do your "AzzKicking" playing X-Box ?


What crawled up your ass?

Don't confuse LEO and MIL guys with training to some of the n00bs on this board who have cool AR's and want it for Home Defense.

Also, what would be easier? To grab a pistol under the bed or grab an AR under the bed with the clip sticking out, FSB sticking out, Pistol grip sticking out.  

Seriously. I love AR's but for a simple home defense gun there are better options.  That was all.


Have you tried it? Mine comes out quite easy. BTW, all rounds capable of killing will go thru LOTS of drywall. Don't kid yourself.

To the OP, an in wall safe may be an option for you.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:50:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2007 2:51:19 PM EDT by AzzKicker]
What if the intruder is already in your house? You gonna run to open a safe?  Sorry but still, a locked up pistol under the bed is still the better choice.

Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:54:38 PM EDT
I would recommend a small touch pad or simplex safe and keep your home defense mags in that, weapon within reach, unloaded.  If you don't have time to finger a three to five diget code, grab, load and chamber, you screwed up somewhere on exterior security measures accompained by a lack of a dog.
Personally I prefer a pistol for bumps in the night but YMMV.  Part of my reason is that it affords a loaded gun that is child safe and amatuer thief resistant in that same compact safe.
As for those that say the will gunproof their kids I agree with that principal and adhere to it.  The problem is, you can't gunproof thier friends. If you think you know about EVERY single time one of Johnny's buddies is in your house, I hate to tell you but you are DEAD wrong.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:58:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2007 3:11:46 PM EDT by LoneWolfUSMC]
1. My 4 year old knows what guns are, can usually recite the safety rules (unless spongebob is on TV), and knows that when he wants to look at my guns, all he has to do is ask. He rarely asks anymore because he has seen and handled them enough to loose the "mystery".

2. For home defense I have access to a Springfield XD9 Compact, Glock 21 with M3 light, M4gery with Aimpoint and light, or Remington 870 with light. I also have the training and qualification to use all of the above. Should something go bump in the night, the Glock is the go to. 13+1 of .45 ACP Hydrashock is more than enough to defeat anything not wearing body armor, and knock the snot out of anything that is. (followup with one to the head). The M4 or Shotgun are a liability in close quarters unless you are VERY familiar (read TRAIN REGULARLY) with weapon retention. It is VERY easy to take a long gun from someone in close quarters. If they are slung up, it is very easy to throw someone around with their own gun.

Put away the gunstore commando attiudes and quit slinging ballistics around. If you never get to pull the trigger because the badguy is stuffing your muzzle up your nose then it dosent matter how many layers of drywall a .223 wil penetrate.

With a proper handgun I can clear a house or retreat to safety with a young child under one arm. For that I will give up some terminal ballistics.

Now if something outside needs investigating, then it's time to grab the AR or Shotgun.

ETA:

In my house Handguns are kept Condition one and in a keypad safe. My AR is kept in condition 3. My child currently does not have the physical strength to draw back the charging handle on the AR. I know, I routinely check. Due to the collection getting larger a safe is in the VERY near future.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 2:58:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2007 3:00:26 PM EDT by Orange_Neck]
To the OP- depending on how old your child is, the AR may be made safe out in the open.  i.e. if he is not strong enough to chamber a round.  I make sure the chamber is clear and the hammer dropped since the resistance of the hammer spring will make the AR even harder to charge. Prop the AR against the night stand with a full mag inserted, EOTech turned on (AA batteries are cheap), the weapon light’s batteries are fresh and pray the alarm system don’t go off.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:02:27 PM EDT
Finally some people with sense post
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:05:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2007 3:11:53 PM EDT by m24shooter]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:
..What crawled up your ass?

How about a plethora of BS from your post?


Also, what would be easier? To grab a pistol under the bed or grab an AR under the bed with the clip sticking out, FSB sticking out, Pistol grip sticking out.  

What kind of  person just throws their home defense gun 'under their bed'?  Or assumes that becaues they put their handgun there that people who use longarms do the same?

+1.
And AzzKicker, don't make the mistake of assuming that somebody in the military or LE is trained in anything other than the very basic fundamentals.  There are a TON of LEOs that carry a gun because they have to, and only work with it for annual quals.  Their level of longarm use is often even more limited, and practical training even less to non-existent.  As for military, there are a very few infantry type jobs.  The remainder are basically supporting the infantry and their ability to fight.  Even then, the military's practical training in longarms is just recently becomming realistic.  And a vast number of military members don't get a whole lot of time on sidearms.  With the current situation abroad, a larger number of supprt types are getting realistic training with M16s and M4s, but that is of a rather different application than HD use, so don't confuse those either.
Since you are a new member (don't know how long you lurked before joining, or if you even did) you may just be surprised to learn that there are a large number of .civ types here train there asses off, often to higher level of the people that you think get trigger time as a .gov or .mil type.
If you had gotten any training, you would know there is a rather strong belief that sidearms are not the preferred method of HD from a terminal ballistics standpoint.  Sidearms are carried because as a .civ CCW type, it's all your allowed.  As an LEO, it is part of the uni and lots of admin types feint flat the hell out at the thought of an LEO walking around with a lonarm.  They also tend to make the populace uneasy to see them.  At home, you aren't restrained by these matters (although legal restraints may play a part in your decision).  A longarm is going to be much more likely to get you through the event alive with a greater likelihood of being effective than a short barreled firearm.  A CQB type rig (even a 16" properly set up) will not be any longer than a proper shooting stance.  There are also ways to choke up on longer rifles to minimize your extension.  In your particular circumstance, a sidearm may be better for your application from a technical perspective.  That's a decision the individual has to make.  The OP asked about ARs and HD, so that is what is being discussed.
Welcome to the site, and don't be so sensitive.

ETA.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:06:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2007 3:08:32 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]
first off, everybody is different and lives in different areas, and so while an AR might not be the best HD firearm for everyone, pick the one that fits you and your needs

for example, i'm not around young kids, so any firearm is alright; so, i pick an AR as a primary HD gun, for several reasons, including: less penetration in walls, potential for penetration on hard targets, range, rifle ballistics, hi-cap, ergos, faster follow up shots (vs. 12ga) and better retention control (vs HG), and its what i'm comfortable with
so if you want to use a HG or 12ga, or whatever, go for it

but dont try to argue that an avg. HG cartrige or 12ga load appropriate for people is LESS likely to overpenetrate in std drywall or housing walls--while they will all go through, 12ga/HG ammo will just as likely go through more crap while not providing as much benefit as an AR does....YMMV

get a safe, one that locks, esp if you have kids; but i will also suggest that having a HG locked by your bedstand is not a bad idea--use it to get to your AR which is locked in your closet or whatever, if you must

second, home protection doesnt begin or end w/ just having a good, reliable, hard-hitting firearm--it begins w/ good security, including locks, doors/windows, alarms, and security cameras and lights, and dogs/gators, ect...

so if the badguy is already in your home, either you missed the fact he broke in while you were away or your home was not appropriately secured in the first damn place and you could not hear him/her while they barged in
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:08:38 PM EDT
I have to agree a handgun is the best for the "bump in the night."  I keep my Glock 21 with 2 mags of Hydra Shoks on the nightstand.  I also have my M4gery with 3 30 rounders for xtra peace of mind.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:08:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:
First off I wouldn't use a AR for home defense.  Over penetration would be problemo number 1.

Awe Geez not this crap again.

.223 is FAR less likely to be a problem after passing through some drywall than any other 'typical' home defense round (9mm, .45 ACP, 12 gauge buckshot etc).  Please consult the Ammo Oracle or any of these open source articles:


R.K. Taubert, ".223 for CQB", Florida SWAT Association News, Fall 1997 (also presented in Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement, Jan 1997).

Gunsite Training Center Staff, "The Call-Out Bag: A Comparison of .223 Penetration Versus Handgun Calibers", The Tactical Edge, pp. 63-64, Summer 1994.

"Comparison of the Wound Ballistic Potential of 9mm vs. 5.56 (.223) Cartridges for Law Enforcement Entry Applications", Gary K. Roberts and Michael E. Bullian, AFTE Journal, 25 (2):142-147, April 1993.




Second, Too big, even the shortest of barrels would still make it heavy and long and chances are in case of a real emergency you would be fumbling it around.

Another BS statement.

M4 type carbines are routinely used by Military and LEOs for building clearing and they don't have problems.  Matter of fact if you compare the profile of a shooter with an M4 to one holding a handgun in a proper presentation you'll find realistically there is very little difference in the distance from the muzzle to the back of the shooter.



The only other choice I see is to keep AR under your bed but hid Clips somewhere else.

Do you do your "AzzKicking" playing X-Box ?



Thank you, I didnt want to be the one to say anything.


Also, AZZkicker, about the leangth issue......First hold up your pistol like you are readyto fire......then huld up your carbine like you are going to fire. You'll notice that leangth is not the issue.

In fact you have a better site radius on the carbine, abetter grip, so as not to have it taken or kicked away from you by the BG, and it HURTS more!
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:22:02 PM EDT
By length I did not mean muzzle distance.  I meant for storage.  Remember this post is about HD and Kids and AR's.  By length I meant it in a way of which is easier to store next to you and have quick easy access.

For instance I have a lockable night stand with my 9mm in it that is not even 5" from my bed.  I can access that sucker easily.  Not how would I do the same with an AR size weapon?  I would more than likely have to have it under bed which is not good or in a safe somewhere in my closet or room in which case I would have to get up and go get it.

I love the AR and I have mine ready to go as well. But it is a lot easier for me to safely store and access a pistol for HD.  


Sorry if I got all jumpy I was just voicing my opinion on HD.  I guess different scenarios call for different weapons.  My house got shot at one time by some guys mistaking it for the house next door and If I could go back in time to that day, the AR would be in my hands.  But for normal HD the pistol is there.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:22:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARnut223:
How do you guys with small kids and use an AR for home defense store them.  I'm trying to find a way to keep the gun away from my children and still have quick access to it.  


Thanks for asking a question that I've been thinking a lot about.  Hopefully the s***storm of tangents will not prevent some discussion of the topic itself.  

Depends on how accessible you want things, I guess.  
If you are relying on an AR for go-to defense, many will argue it needs to be in condition one.  In that case you need to keep it from being fired, as well as removed, so you'd need a rack that covers/restricts the trigger.  

A safe seems like the cheapest easy solution.  I'd thought about an inexpensive safe and adding a real high-reliability pushbutton combo lock (like the Simplex). My main goal would be to hinder illicit access, not protect my enormous high-value collection .. Yeah, I wish.  Your needs may be more extensive.   There are also locking racks made for patrol cars (Esmet TufLoc, etc):
www.tufloc.com/multigun.html
www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=VP216&cat=2693
It money weren't an object I'd probably get one of these... They're cheaper than most high-security gun safes, though.    

Your philosophy of gunproofing/childproofing and home defense weapon choice aside, I do commend you for actually worrying about the problem.  The orthodox "my kids are gunproofed" stance is a lot like the "your brain is the safety" argument about Glocks.  It's almost religious in its intensity, but no one else cares as much about your kids as you do.  I've seen enough tragic events that I 'd hope most people have no wish to be "right" about this at the expense of other people's safety.  Keep an open mind.  

There was some stuff in the media recently about the Eddie Eagle program (which makes sense to me overall) not being as effective as first thought.  Of course around here that just means that the media is biased and sucks.  I offer no authoritative opinion about gunproofing kids, but "reliability" and "safety", as well as "failure analysis" in a lot of other fields (medicine and aviation come to mind) usually doesn't rely on one safeguard alone.  

Anyhow, let us know what you come up with.  If you do decide to go with a handgun, I can definitely recommend the Handgun Safe as one of the best-engineered products I've ever used.  It is tank-like in solidity but opens quickly without any electricity required:  
www.handgunsafe.com/4811s.htm

Hope this helps,
Dave
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:31:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2007 3:36:41 PM EDT by uglygun]

Originally Posted By AzzKicker:
First off I wouldn't use a AR for home defense.  Over penetration would be problemo number 1.  Second, Too big, even the shortest of barrels would still make it heavy and long and chances are in case of a real emergency you would be fumbling it around.

A good .40, .45 caliber pistol is a way better home defense gun to keep locked up under your bed.  Use that as your first choice of defense and keep the AR locked in a safe where you can easily get to in case you need more firepower which I seriously doubt.


The only other choice I see is to keep AR under your bed but hid Clips somewhere else.


Wow, only took what 3 posts before we got such a response?


Listen, you judge what is best for your situation and leave us to judge best for our situation.

In my house, longest shot I can expect to take is at 25+ yards(INSIDE THE HOUSE, YES YARDS!).    I am not about to compromise accuracy or lethality by going with a handgun or a shotgun at such distances, the AR offers a definitive advantage over both a shotgun or handgun in my situation.    I'm not about to dumb down to the other guy's level, where if he is armed with a handgun may still get off a lucky shot from down the hall firing in my direction.

And I have no intentions of venturing out to go "clear" the house like I'm some kind of SWAT team member but it's better to have the range/precision and not need it then to need it and not have it.


Shooting in 3 gun I'm quite aware of my skill set with handguns, shotguns, and the AR.   Hands down the shotgun and handgun loses to the AR in my experience.


What if the intruder is already in your house? You gonna run to open a safe? Sorry but still, a locked up pistol under the bed is still the better choice.




Under the bed is not my definition of "quick access", beside the bed is where my AR sits with magazines locked.

I sleep with the bedroom door locked.    When I'm home and awake the AR is kept next to the bed and ready to go.    When I leave the AR is locked in it's safe where it belongs.

If I wind up having kids one of these days, like anything I will re-evaluate my decisions and if they are still fitting for my situation.


This bullshit where one person runs around trying to argue what "works for them" is suitable or will work for others needs to stop.    It's the same lame assed shit that the Fudds do when arguing that nobody needs an Assault Weapon for hunting or some other stupid crap.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:32:50 PM EDT
With a little creativity, this is a viable albeit non-locking method:  plastix plus.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:34:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 3:37:59 PM EDT
During the waking hours when I do move around the house a lot, I pack a .40 cal sub-compact pistol covered up with a shirt. The boys don’t notice it and safest place for it to be is on my hip so I won’t forget and leave somewhere in the house for them to find. After their bed time, I prefer the AR for reasons stated above by the pro AR for HD folks.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:04:57 PM EDT
Wow, I never knew wanting to protect children was such a touchy subject.

dkk73  Thanks for the links. This looks like the answer I was looking for.
www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=VP216&cat=2693

As for my kids I have three girls, newborn. seven, and eight years old.  They have been taught gun safety and to respect guns and what they can do.  Do I trust a seven or eight year old to do the right thing 100% of the time? No, I remember being that age.  Am I willing to bet there lives that they will do the right thing, no way. Thank to everyone that offered advice.
Randy
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:06:57 PM EDT
Good topic.  I grew up around guns, was taught to respect them - as were all of you, I'm sure.  I had a loaded Hi-Power at my bedside from the time I was 15.  

So gunproofing kids as the ideal resonates with me.  But my wife and I ultimately decided that we could not place such a burden on them.  And we realized we could not live with ourselves in the event of a failure.

We got cold feet.  When our eldest reached age 4 we put revolvers away and kept a 1911 in condition 3.  When she made it to 6 we put all guns away, except for a couple loaded handguns in a touchpad safe.  Yes, it's not a perfect solution - looked at from any angle - but that's what we did.  

Now our youngest is 10 and had his first deer season.  He shoots skeet and he shoots MGs.  My daughter is a genius (aren't they all?) but follows orders to the letter.  So I'm starting to rethink this.  I'm thinking we'll be able to keep a loaded AR around in a year or two.  The one concern that remains is............OPK (other people's kids).  Simply asserting that we won't allow other kids in the house when we're out won't cut it with my wife (or me).  I voted for Ronald Reagan and understand the brilliant wisdom of "trust but verify".  So I don't yet know how to deal with the OPK issue.  Any of you dealt with this?

Sam

 
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:08:00 PM EDT
I think the key part of this post is the kids factor, not what is the best combat weapon (in or out of the house).  I am stunned to hear that there are people that feel that an AR-15 with a loaded mag in it is ok, because a child is too weak to cycle it.  Or that they are certain that the child knows not to touch it.  Quite a gamble, with heavy stakes.

I know I'll get flamed heavily (especially since I have a low post count), but I really disagree with that position.  

The answer (for me - at my home - with small children) is to educate the children, but still use a wall safe (push button variety) and a revolver.  Gotta play the odds of potential risks/dangers.  When I was single and starting out in an apartment in a sleezy neighborhood, I had a .357 revo on a milk crate by the bed.  Now, that would be insane (because of te kids).  

Little children need you to be EXTRA carefull.  They need you to not trust them.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:08:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:19:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2007 4:20:28 PM EDT by LoneWolfUSMC]
As one of the other members stated, no matter what weapon you choose, a layered defense is best.

I have two medium sized dogs with large sized voices. They still bark at me when I come home late at night (i work 2nds). If the dogs don't deter a burglar, then they will at least alert me or my wife to the intruder. That gives us more than enough time to retrieve a firearm and dial 911 (in that order). Should the unlucky bastard actually make entry through the locked doors then in all reality I would probably have a hard time getting a clear shot through the dogs.

And yes PLEASE do not trust your children to keep their hands off. TRAIN THEM, but then safeguard them as well. You never know when they will show one of their less intelligent friends where daddy keeps the guns.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:21:52 PM EDT
Unlocked firearms and kids are out of the question.   PLEASE!  Hide a gun?  You've got to be kidding.

It may be that your dad taught you, and you respected it.  Things are different now, at least for your kids' friends.  Video games, MTV, too much whatever, but it's WAY different today.

One of those finger-code lockboxes for a handgun is the first choice.  You can do it in the dark.  I still have the mag out of the gun, and must rack.  Next is an AR in a long safe-- lots of options, including in-wall.  But trained mil is a far cry from anyone else.

Good luck, but don't screw us all up by having one of your kids' friends blow someone away!
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:22:44 PM EDT
To clarify things…

1. An AR CAN be your best option for home defense, rather than IS the best option

2. Each person must decide for themselves which is the best option in their home.

3. NO round going off indoors is safe or even “safer” than another.  Interior walls are typically made of two layers of very thin sheetrock.  I have airguns that have no problem going through interior walls so take no comfort in what the “experts” are saying about the 5.56 indoors.  Regardless of what you choose, you cannot afford to have stray rounds flying through your home.  ALL WILL PENETRATE SEVERAL WALLS.  (And let’s be real here…It only takes one).  If you have to shoot in your home…For God’s sake, DON’T MISS.

4. While the AR may be the choice of SWAT and special ops (who typically work in teams), it can be a piss poor choice for home defense, especially if you have very small children.  Imagine your wife is out of town and it’s just you.  You have a 6 month old and a 2 year old.  Chances are at some point you’ll be carrying one or both children…Exactly how do you man your AR-death ray when you have kids in your home.

5. Now if your wife is home and you can cover a hallway while she gets the kids to “The Alamo” (safe room, your bedroom, or wherever you decide to make your stand), the AR is an OUTSTANDING choice.

It’s your home, it’s your situation, it’s your decision, it’s YOUR responsibility.  In my home my front line tool for home defense is my handgun because I have areas where I can’t extend my AR (even cramped for a pistol).  I also have very small children that will need to be managed, and I need the ability to holster…That’s my call, your situation is probably much different.
 
Typically, if you have a rifle option, it’s a better option.  What I’m getting at is: Just because all the popular gunzines and special ops guys are toting AR’s for CQB, doesn’t mean it’s YOUR best option.  I encourage anyone thinking about home defense to engage in a bit of critical thinking and find out what works best in YOUR house, instead of blindly jumping on the latest bandwagon.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:28:58 PM EDT
thank god i dont have kids, all my stuff is in a safe, but i do keep my glock 26 in the nite stand, (9mm) i always believed in shot placement over caliber

when i do in fact have kids, i'll prob get a gun safe built into the wall of my closet
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:34:01 PM EDT
Anyone have any actual experience with the in vehicle mount for the AR linked on the previous page?  I ask because I think the OP indicated he thought that was the solution but I immediatley had a few questions.

First, being designed for a vehicle I presume it's setup to work on 12v.  Raises issues in the home setting.

Second, it refers to a remote switch to release the mechanism - is it secure or simply a "hidden" rocker switch?  If so you might want to rethink that idea as anyone with a pair of pliers can jump the circut.

Aside from those issues I like the overall concept.

BTW, glad to see this evolved into a viable discussion rather than a bunch of dribble.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:35:17 PM EDT
total hijack:

my 2.5-year old picked up an airsoft AR (gift... useless, but fun for chasing the neighborhood cats away without getting me in trouble) the other day and walked around holding the thing correctly with the muzzle pointed at the ground and his finger off the trigger.  When his mom asked him what he was doing, he said "carry rifle like daddy".

I wish I had a picture....
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:40:30 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:
...a layered defense is best.
Hey, now we're on to something.  The 4 layers of home protection are:

Deter
Detect
Delay
Respond

Cover those four and your home is a "hard" target instead of a "soft" target.  Makes life very difficult on the bad guys.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:42:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mister-Z:
Anyone have any actual experience with the in vehicle mount for the AR linked on the previous page?


I would not use a vehicle mount in the home. It would take some rigging to get it to work, and it would be more difficult to conceal the release. I would go with a small keypad long gun safe before I would do a vehicle mount.

If you really wanted something like that, take a look at the "Life Jacket" style gun locks. It may be the ticket for a "plain jane" AR. I know they won't work if you have optics.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:44:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Another BS statement.

M4 type carbines are routinely used by Military and LEOs for building clearing and they don't have problems.  Matter of fact if you compare the profile of a shooter with an M4 to one holding a handgun in a proper presentation you'll find realistically there is very little difference in the distance from the muzzle to the back of the shooter.

As well as 20" M16A2/A4s and M249 SAWs..
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 4:51:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:

Originally Posted By Mister-Z:
Anyone have any actual experience with the in vehicle mount for the AR linked on the previous page?


I would not use a vehicle mount in the home. It would take some rigging to get it to work, and it would be more difficult to conceal the release. I would go with a small keypad long gun safe before I would do a vehicle mount.

If you really wanted something like that, take a look at the "Life Jacket" style gun locks. It may be the ticket for a "plain jane" AR. I know they won't work if you have optics.


That was exactly my thought.  As indicated in my earlier post, I opt for a touch safe and a handgun for things that go bump, kids are part of the equation.  My long guns are in a traditional safe downstairs, should things get weird enough that one moves upstairs and into the open I'll secure the mags in a touch safe as a stopgap.  

I agree strongly with an earlier comment about the futility of "hiding" unsecured weapons in the home.  I was 10 once and believe me, I knew where everything was.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 5:06:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARnut223:
How do you guys with small kids and use an AR for home defense store them.  I'm trying to find a way to keep the gun away from my children and still have quick access to it.  


When my kids were small (<5), I kept them high enough that they could not reach them, but they knew they were around from the time they were aware of firearms.  Any time that they asked, I allowed them to handle them all the while emphasizing firearm safety.  The mystery was gone and they never showed anything but a healthy interest in them.  They never had "toy" guns.  They had air rifles (not BB guns) from about the age of 5 or 6 always under supervision until about 9 or 10.  One grew to be a shooter while the other is competent but really does not have the interest in the sport.



Link Posted: 1/2/2007 5:12:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kevin_Gibson:
To clarify things…

1. An AR CAN be your best option for home defense, rather than IS the best option

2. Each person must decide for themselves which is the best option in their home.

3. NO round going off indoors is safe or even “safer” than another.  Interior walls are typically made of two layers of very thin sheetrock.  I have airguns that have no problem going through interior walls so take no comfort in what the “experts” are saying about the 5.56 indoors.  Regardless of what you choose, you cannot afford to have stray rounds flying through your home.  ALL WILL PENETRATE SEVERAL WALLS.  (And let’s be real here…It only takes one).  If you have to shoot in your home…For God’s sake, DON’T MISS.

4. While the AR may be the choice of SWAT and special ops (who typically work in teams), it can be a piss poor choice for home defense, especially if you have very small children.  Imagine your wife is out of town and it’s just you.  You have a 6 month old and a 2 year old.  Chances are at some point you’ll be carrying one or both children…Exactly how do you man your AR-death ray when you have kids in your home.

5. Now if your wife is home and you can cover a hallway while she gets the kids to “The Alamo” (safe room, your bedroom, or wherever you decide to make your stand), the AR is an OUTSTANDING choice.

It’s your home, it’s your situation, it’s your decision, it’s YOUR responsibility.  In my home my front line tool for home defense is my handgun because I have areas where I can’t extend my AR (even cramped for a pistol).  I also have very small children that will need to be managed, and I need the ability to holster…That’s my call, your situation is probably much different.
 
Typically, if you have a rifle option, it’s a better option.  What I’m getting at is: Just because all the popular gunzines and special ops guys are toting AR’s for CQB, doesn’t mean it’s YOUR best option.  I encourage anyone thinking about home defense to engage in a bit of critical thinking and find out what works best in YOUR house, instead of blindly jumping on the latest bandwagon.



theres no BS in this statement. hes 100% correct.
Link Posted: 1/2/2007 5:59:04 PM EDT
In my house I have over 3,124 plastic/toy AR-15s laying around. There is only one real AR and I know where it is - I change the location every day. The odds of the kids (or a bad guy) finding the real one are next to nothing.

Pretty good trick huh?

Link Posted: 1/2/2007 6:03:24 PM EDT
Well I'd say the AR-15 Pistols are the best method to arm the kids with for a home defense situation.  Just get an ace buffer tube, and its length of pull is plenty to serve as a stock for the little ones.  Don't for get a KX3 brake given the secondary sonic weapon from a short barreled AR in confined spaces

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