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Posted: 1/6/2006 5:05:50 PM EDT
[#1]
I do not have a link to the info, but this stuff is significantly higher pressure than even the 127gr +P+ Ranger stuff. The BATF had a warning out on this stuff, and someone can probably link you to it. Try a google ssearch with BATF and L7A1. It was intended for use in Sterling SMG's in Arctic conditons and is NOT reccomended for use in 9mm pistols, even the Glocks.
I have heard of folks running this in Glocks, but I wouldn't chance it. ETA what I could find with a short Google search: Hirtenberger AG WARNING: Austrian ammunition maker Hirtenberger AG has put the word out concerning a quantity of its 9x19 mm ammunition that is "unique for use in any handgun." According to a November 7, 2003 BATF Industry News release. "This ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns. This ammunition should not be fired in any weapon other than what it was designed for." The ammunition was produced for the British Ministry of Defense from 1990 through 1992 for use in the L7A1 "under adverse conditions" and carries the "L7A1" designation, as well as submachine guns or the semi automatic versions of such weapons. The ammunition covered by this warning can be identified by the following head stamps: 12 o’clock position: "HP" 3 o’clock position: "90, 91, or 92" 6 o’clock position: "L7A1" 9 o’clock position: "a cross within a circle (NATO cross Å). (Information from the International Ammunition Association, Inc.) |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 5:35:55 PM EDT
[#2]
A club I used to be a member at back in 1990 had a GLOCK rep out, and he said the Glock barrels would handle "subgun ammo", the barrels were really tough. I have a G17, but I have never shot any really heavy ammo in it, other than M-882 (9mm NATO). YMMV |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 5:46:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Wasn't CorBon 115gr +P+ "THE" round a few years ago?
The more I find on the Hirt stuff, the less likely I am to buy it....I would guess a 124gr +P+ will have a greater pressure than 115gr+P+.....or, I may be wrong... One old thread on GLockTalk says 2 Glocks and 1 SIG were trashed by the Hirt stuff. Heck I won't even use PD ammo in my AR's..... |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 5:53:13 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:33:31 PM EDT
[#5]
This stuff has been on market for quite a while - I shot some of this stuff in my G19. It was pretty hot. I think it is OK for Glocks. It was too hot for a friends UZI - over drove the bolt and caused the sub-gun to go out of time and jam unless it was fired in very short bursts.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:19:28 PM EDT
[#6]
For comparison, the Winchester RA9TA (127gr +P+) that the original poster refers to is specced by Winchester to have a Muzzle Velocity of 1250 fps, versus the 1450 shown in the quoted tests above for 124gr Hirt. I'd say that sounds like a significant difference. On the other hand, I would probably bet my life that it would work just fine in a G19/17/34, since they really seem to eat up just about anything. But I don't know if I'd choose to subject my pistol to thousands of rounds of the stuff, it's bound to accelerate wear. RA9TA or even better the standard-pressure 147gr RA9T is probably a much better defensive/carry round, and I'm sure you can find some standard-pressure ammo to plink with that's close enough in price to this Hirt junk that it's not worth taking the risk. So why bother with the Hirt stuff? |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:27:46 PM EDT
[#7]
I've shot LOTS a little over 10K rounds of the Hirtenberger so-called subgun ammo hrough my Gen 1 G17 (it had a non captured recoil spring assy) it didn't break anything and was decently accurate.
My USPSA (IPSC) load right now is very high pressure 40,000psi plus but very slow (a 147gr going 855-900fps) using VV N320 powder. Runs fine in a stock Glock or KKM barrel. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:36:40 PM EDT
[#8]
Why the "very high pressure" yet so slow? Is it a matter of desiring a non-standard burn rate for some reason or other? Win RA9T is not considered overpressure, yet the spec sheet says 147 gr @ 990fps. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:48:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Undersize die with a 147gr ZERO loaded with 3.3gr of VV N320 with Federal primers. This load isn't in any of the load data. Some people I know are even using N310. The undersize die is used to stop bullet setback. High pressure doesn't always mean high velocity and this is 1 example of that. BTW I guarantee RA9T isn't using VV N320.............hint, hint.........look at the burn rates..............Burn rate and bullet weight has everything to do with how it feels. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 8:59:54 PM EDT
[#10]
I don't know enough about reloading to follow you at this point. Are you saying that by using a faster-burning powder you can get the same velocity but with more chamber pressure and less felt recoil? |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 9:05:48 PM EDT
[#11]
+P ok for hand guns
+P+ for sub MGs only |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 11:29:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Bump up the recoil spring a tad in the Glock, it'll handle the pressure as long as it doesn't beat the crap out of the frame in doing so... Good recoil spring will also insure it goes fully into battery.
Glocks and Rugers are about the only pistols I'd shoot that stuff in. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 5:24:36 AM EDT
[#13]
Hi guys,
If someone knows how to make this link hot, please do so. Carey http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=253408 |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 8:25:55 AM EDT
[#14]
Can anyone who owns some of the L7A1 give the projectile a magnet test? One place I read about this stuff said "the steel guilding metal jacket greatly accelerates barrel wear...." which sounds a little goofy.
Can anyone comment on this factoid? |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 8:27:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Done |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 8:42:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Fact: L7A1 gilding metal over steel jacket. DIHBS: Steel jacketed bullets greatly accelerate barrel wear -BS Barrel wear is mostly throat erosion due to the hot gasses. DIHBS - pronounced 'dibs' Dis-Information Highway BS. |
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Posted: 1/7/2006 1:37:32 PM EDT
[#17]
So, this round has a soft steel jacket....I don't see BATFE concerned about alleged AP issues....
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