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Link Posted: 12/22/2020 1:01:46 PM EDT
[#1]
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Originally Posted By amphibian:
What about using the LMT enhanced carrier or the Surefire OBC?  Both carriers use a modified cam pin path to keep the bolt closed longer to prevent breakage of the bolt.   Should also prevent cam pin breakage.  I don't know what the cam pin geometry is like comparing the LMT to the Surefire....but the Surefire was designed by Jim Sullivan himself.

Also, what 223/556 ammo are you using these days?  I recall you posting about liking to use Wolf Gold but I believe that has dried up these days.
View Quote



We had approximately 1.25 million rounds of Wolf Gold .223 prior to the COVID shutdown and had received another half million rounds of the Wolf M855. Since then, we've managed to source other ammunition to include Federal and I believe Magtech. We've always kept a large inventory in the event of situations like this and while some of our competition is having a hard time sourcing ammunition, we've kept business and usual. We are now looking at sourcing a larger supply from overseas in addition to our current sellers to double our standing inventory.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 12/22/2020 1:15:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:



We had approximately 1.25 million rounds of Wolf Gold .223 prior to the COVID shutdown and had received another half million rounds of the Wolf M855. Since then, we've managed to source other ammunition to include Federal and I believe Magtech. We've always kept a large inventory in the event of situations like this and while some of our competition is having a hard time sourcing ammunition, we've kept business and usual. We are now looking at sourcing a larger supply from overseas in addition to our current sellers to double our standing inventory.

V/R
Ron
View Quote

Now that is a true "ammo whore".

Smart man.
Link Posted: 12/22/2020 6:22:11 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:



We had approximately 1.25 million rounds of Wolf Gold .223 prior to the COVID shutdown and had received another half million rounds of the Wolf M855. Since then, we've managed to source other ammunition to include Federal and I believe Magtech. We've always kept a large inventory in the event of situations like this and while some of our competition is having a hard time sourcing ammunition, we've kept business and usual. We are now looking at sourcing a larger supply from overseas in addition to our current sellers to double our standing inventory.

V/R
Ron
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By amphibian:
What about using the LMT enhanced carrier or the Surefire OBC?  Both carriers use a modified cam pin path to keep the bolt closed longer to prevent breakage of the bolt.   Should also prevent cam pin breakage.  I don't know what the cam pin geometry is like comparing the LMT to the Surefire....but the Surefire was designed by Jim Sullivan himself.

Also, what 223/556 ammo are you using these days?  I recall you posting about liking to use Wolf Gold but I believe that has dried up these days.



We had approximately 1.25 million rounds of Wolf Gold .223 prior to the COVID shutdown and had received another half million rounds of the Wolf M855. Since then, we've managed to source other ammunition to include Federal and I believe Magtech. We've always kept a large inventory in the event of situations like this and while some of our competition is having a hard time sourcing ammunition, we've kept business and usual. We are now looking at sourcing a larger supply from overseas in addition to our current sellers to double our standing inventory.

V/R
Ron

Have you ever thought about Scrooge McDuck-ing into that swimming pool of ammo?
Link Posted: 12/22/2020 8:07:07 PM EDT
[#4]
On the cam pins breaking, do you think it's from the feed cycle or the extraction cycle?  I.e., which puts more stress on the pin; slamming into the back of the slot on feeding or the front of the slot on extraction?

I'd think it would be on the extraction due to gas pressure and all that, but I really don't know.
Link Posted: 12/22/2020 11:51:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Grendelsbane] [#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FredMan:
On the cam pins breaking, do you think it's from the feed cycle or the extraction cycle?  I.e., which puts more stress on the pin; slamming into the back of the slot on feeding or the front of the slot on extraction?

I'd think it would be on the extraction due to gas pressure and all that, but I really don't know.
View Quote


I think you’re right-

It’s got to be during extraction- that’s when the tensile and torsional loads across the thinnest portions are highest.  During chambering, the cam pin is mostly pushing against the back of the forward bolt section.  Peak acceleration/highest loads I would expect to be between the beginning of unlock until the expansion chamber vents (bolt extension occurs), and it certainly looks that way in high speed video.

Fully Automatic Assault Rifle at 18,000fps - The Slow Mo Guys
Link Posted: 12/23/2020 1:50:55 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FONTY:

I also would like to see some pic’s of a broken lmt enhanced bolt. I don’t see any in that tube of broken bolts. I’ve only seen 1 pic of a broken kac e3 bolt (below) but never a broken lmt e-bolt.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/236598/0357A637-81AE-44C9-8BC1-90C251D40D7B_jpe-1741855.JPG
View Quote

That is not an E3 bolt
Link Posted: 12/23/2020 1:56:29 AM EDT
[#7]
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Originally Posted By Tejas1836:

That is not an E3 bolt
View Quote

Shit your right i just noticed no lobster tail extractor, those rounded lugs got me
Link Posted: 12/23/2020 7:17:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: amphibian] [#8]
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Originally Posted By Grendelsbane:


I think you're right-

It's got to be during extraction- that's when the tensile and torsional loads across the thinnest portions are highest.  During chambering, the cam pin is mostly pushing against the back of the forward bolt section.  Peak acceleration/highest loads I would expect to be between the beginning of unlock until the expansion chamber vents (bolt extension occurs), and it certainly looks that way in high speed video.
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Originally Posted By Grendelsbane:
Originally Posted By FredMan:
On the cam pins breaking, do you think it's from the feed cycle or the extraction cycle?  I.e., which puts more stress on the pin; slamming into the back of the slot on feeding or the front of the slot on extraction?

I'd think it would be on the extraction due to gas pressure and all that, but I really don't know.


I think you're right-

It's got to be during extraction- that's when the tensile and torsional loads across the thinnest portions are highest.  During chambering, the cam pin is mostly pushing against the back of the forward bolt section.  Peak acceleration/highest loads I would expect to be between the beginning of unlock until the expansion chamber vents (bolt extension occurs), and it certainly looks that way in high speed video.
Yes, on the extraction cycle.  Again, an LMT enhanced carrier or the Surefire OBC both have modified cam pin paths to increase the dwell time to reduce bolt and cam pin breakage.  Would be interesting to hear if BFV has tried either.
Link Posted: 12/23/2020 1:55:54 PM EDT
[#9]
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:



We had approximately 1.25 million rounds of Wolf Gold .223 prior to the COVID shutdown and had received another half million rounds of the Wolf M855. Since then, we've managed to source other ammunition to include Federal and I believe Magtech. We've always kept a large inventory in the event of situations like this and while some of our competition is having a hard time sourcing ammunition, we've kept business and usual. We are now looking at sourcing a larger supply from overseas in addition to our current sellers to double our standing inventory.

V/R
Ron
View Quote

Heh!  I'd like to see a picture of that stash!

Here's an idea for a Vegas caper movie: "Rob the casinos?  No, we're going after Henderson's .223 stash!  What could go wrong?"
Link Posted: 12/23/2020 2:28:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bluemax_1] [#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By maxicon:

Heh!  I'd like to see a picture of that stash!

Here's an idea for a Vegas caper movie: "Rob the casinos?  No, we're going after Henderson's .223 stash!  What could go wrong?"
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Originally Posted By maxicon:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:



We had approximately 1.25 million rounds of Wolf Gold .223 prior to the COVID shutdown and had received another half million rounds of the Wolf M855. Since then, we've managed to source other ammunition to include Federal and I believe Magtech. We've always kept a large inventory in the event of situations like this and while some of our competition is having a hard time sourcing ammunition, we've kept business and usual. We are now looking at sourcing a larger supply from overseas in addition to our current sellers to double our standing inventory.

V/R
Ron

Heh!  I'd like to see a picture of that stash!

Here's an idea for a Vegas caper movie: "Rob the casinos?  No, we're going after Henderson's .223 stash!  What could go wrong?"

I'd watch that!

***Potential favorite scene: "Now I have the minigun. Ho Ho Ho". BRRRRRTTTTTTT!!!
Link Posted: 12/23/2020 2:45:06 PM EDT
[#11]
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Originally Posted By bluemax_1:

I'd watch that!
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Originally Posted By bluemax_1:
Originally Posted By maxicon:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:



We had approximately 1.25 million rounds of Wolf Gold .223 prior to the COVID shutdown and had received another half million rounds of the Wolf M855. Since then, we've managed to source other ammunition to include Federal and I believe Magtech. We've always kept a large inventory in the event of situations like this and while some of our competition is having a hard time sourcing ammunition, we've kept business and usual. We are now looking at sourcing a larger supply from overseas in addition to our current sellers to double our standing inventory.

V/R
Ron

Heh!  I'd like to see a picture of that stash!

Here's an idea for a Vegas caper movie: "Rob the casinos?  No, we're going after Henderson's .223 stash!  What could go wrong?"

I'd watch that!

This
Link Posted: 12/23/2020 4:07:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By amphibian:
Yes, on the extraction cycle.  Again, an LMT enhanced carrier or the Surefire OBC both have modified cam pin paths to increase the dwell time to reduce bolt and cam pin breakage.  Would be interesting to hear if BFV has tried either.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By amphibian:
Originally Posted By Grendelsbane:
Originally Posted By FredMan:
On the cam pins breaking, do you think it's from the feed cycle or the extraction cycle?  I.e., which puts more stress on the pin; slamming into the back of the slot on feeding or the front of the slot on extraction?

I'd think it would be on the extraction due to gas pressure and all that, but I really don't know.


I think you're right-

It's got to be during extraction- that's when the tensile and torsional loads across the thinnest portions are highest.  During chambering, the cam pin is mostly pushing against the back of the forward bolt section.  Peak acceleration/highest loads I would expect to be between the beginning of unlock until the expansion chamber vents (bolt extension occurs), and it certainly looks that way in high speed video.
Yes, on the extraction cycle.  Again, an LMT enhanced carrier or the Surefire OBC both have modified cam pin paths to increase the dwell time to reduce bolt and cam pin breakage.  Would be interesting to hear if BFV has tried either.


Good reason to keep your chamber clean: possibly prolong bolt life.
Link Posted: 12/25/2020 1:45:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 12/25/2020 9:54:05 PM EDT
[#14]
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Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:


Geisele is supposed to have a enhanced Carpenter 158 PLUS steel bolt that’s forged and not made from rod stock.  It’s supposed to last five times longer.

There is a picture of one in a thread where somebody blew up one of his rifles with a .300 Blackout and it held up surprisingly well.  

Dare I say, have Bill to call you
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Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


I can tell you that we've tried every bolt option out there. I can't say how much longer a certain brand did or didn't last but this is how they all ended up. As for the Sharp's bolt in the pile, I couldn't tell you if that was one that had a recall or not. We've tried everything out there and by the shear volume of use, this is what I am left with when it comes to AR bolts, regardless of manufacture.

V/R
Ron


Geisele is supposed to have a enhanced Carpenter 158 PLUS steel bolt that’s forged and not made from rod stock.  It’s supposed to last five times longer.

There is a picture of one in a thread where somebody blew up one of his rifles with a .300 Blackout and it held up surprisingly well.  

Dare I say, have Bill to call you


I have to ask, five times longer than what? The Army just started using round count as a metric for bolt replacement. Prior to that it was replace if there was a gauging for actual mechanical failure, or when the barrel was changed. Some bolts went 20k rounds, some broke before 1k rounds. Not trying to argue, just trying to seperate marketing from fact.
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 9:34:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 12/27/2020 10:41:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tejas1836] [#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MRW:

a teaser photo of your ammo stock or the bins of spent cases would be a great Christmas present
View Quote

30 days worth of 7.62x39 cases
Link Posted: 12/27/2020 10:59:47 PM EDT
[#17]
One of my all time favorites- just beat the shit out of it until it breaks

Link Posted: 12/28/2020 12:36:26 AM EDT
[#18]
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Link Posted: 12/28/2020 1:40:22 PM EDT
[#19]
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Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:

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Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:


Info on pg 32 here.
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 1:29:39 AM EDT
[#20]
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


I think we've only lost 2-3 AUG bolts over the last eight years. It's hard to compare them next to AR15/M4 bolt because of the disparity in usage. The one thing that does NOT last on our AUG's are the factory translucent magazines. We've gone through hundreds of them and finally told the staff to swap out for Magpul's. The staff know I am weird about certain things and the fact that the AUG mag is very iconic for movie fans and gamers, I've always insisted on factory 30-rounders or the 42-rounders. After years of tossing them, I finally broke down and told the staff to switch over to Magpul units.

V/R
Ron
View Quote


How do Lancer mags hold up? That brown translucent color is what sticks out most to me with the Aug. I bet most people wouldn't notice a difference between them and the original mags.
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 1:34:55 AM EDT
[#21]
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Originally Posted By Tejas1836:
One of my all time favorites- just beat the shit out of it until it breaks

https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg
View Quote


How many times do I have to throw my Aimpoint down the driveway to get that "battlefield worn" look?
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 6:44:00 AM EDT
[#22]
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Originally Posted By MeatBag:


How many times do I have to throw my Aimpoint down the driveway to get that "battlefield worn" look?
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Originally Posted By MeatBag:
Originally Posted By Tejas1836:
One of my all time favorites- just beat the shit out of it until it breaks

https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg


How many times do I have to throw my Aimpoint down the driveway to get that "battlefield worn" look?

87
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 7:56:52 PM EDT
[#23]
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Originally Posted By MeatBag:


How many times do I have to throw my Aimpoint down the driveway to get that "battlefield worn" look?
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Originally Posted By MeatBag:
Originally Posted By Tejas1836:
One of my all time favorites- just beat the shit out of it until it breaks

https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg


How many times do I have to throw my Aimpoint down the driveway to get that "battlefield worn" look?

Loan it to BFV for a month and it'll have more wear than you'll accomplish in a lifetime.
Link Posted: 12/31/2020 1:15:27 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


I think we've only lost 2-3 AUG bolts over the last eight years. It's hard to compare them next to AR15/M4 bolt because of the disparity in usage. The one thing that does NOT last on our AUG's are the factory translucent magazines. We've gone through hundreds of them and finally told the staff to swap out for Magpul's. The staff know I am weird about certain things and the fact that the AUG mag is very iconic for movie fans and gamers, I've always insisted on factory 30-rounders or the 42-rounders. After years of tossing them, I finally broke down and told the staff to switch over to Magpul units.

V/R
Ron
View Quote

On the bolts, where do they seem to break?

AUG mags have always popped the top round up if slammed in, even when new. Some mold numbers are more prone to this than others. The guidance from Steyr-Austria has been "do not slam the mag in on an open bolt. This isn't an AR and it's not necessary"
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 7:38:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:

Loan it to BFV for a month and it'll have more wear than you'll accomplish in a lifetime.
View Quote




V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 7:40:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MeatBag:


How do Lancer mags hold up? That brown translucent color is what sticks out most to me with the Aug. I bet most people wouldn't notice a difference between them and the original mags.
View Quote


We used the Lancer mags on the line for awhile and we didn't notice enough of a difference to choose them over the Magpul for the price difference (from what I remember). That being said, my RSO's still like the Magpul magazines better because they insert properly into certain weapons better and they don't have to continually slap the magazine to seat it.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 7:41:49 PM EDT
[#27]
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Originally Posted By Tejas1836:
One of my all time favorites- just beat the shit out of it until it breaks

https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg
View Quote


I can't remember if I posted it or not but we had a factory HK-416 do the exact same thing.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 9:07:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


I can't remember if I posted it or not but we had a factory HK-416 do the exact same thing.

V/R
Ron
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Tejas1836:
One of my all time favorites- just beat the shit out of it until it breaks

https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg


I can't remember if I posted it or not but we had a factory HK-416 do the exact same thing.

V/R
Ron

Yes sir.....

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 9:20:13 PM EDT
[#29]
The front fell off!
Link Posted: 1/25/2021 6:10:11 PM EDT
[#30]
I have been a long time lurker on this site.  Watching this thread a long time.  Recently made an account since gmail was finally allowed (don't have a "professional" email).  Part of the reason I made an account was to come on this thread and say this...

THANK YOU Henderson Defense for creating this gold-filled thread!
Link Posted: 4/5/2021 6:16:27 PM EDT
[#31]
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Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:

I'll take that scrap off of your hands. I've got...things...I make out of old bolts.
View Quote

Might just be the picture, but I didn't see any MP, MPC, or MPF marked bolts in that group.
Link Posted: 4/5/2021 8:20:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:

Might just be the picture, but I didn't see any MP, MPC, or MPF marked bolts in that group.
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Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:

I'll take that scrap off of your hands. I've got...things...I make out of old bolts.

Might just be the picture, but I didn't see any MP, MPC, or MPF marked bolts in that group.

And?
Link Posted: 4/6/2021 12:18:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Those would be bolts supplied by military contractors. Unmarked bolts are civilian market.
Link Posted: 4/6/2021 12:44:17 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:
Those would be bolts supplied by military contractors. Unmarked bolts are civilian market.
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And your point is?
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 12:00:29 PM EDT
[#35]
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Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:

And your point is?
View Quote


From a military POV, the info in this thread is useful in seeing how resilient civilian market ARs are, but military weaponry is in a different realm.

First, lets run some numbers. A Brigade Combat Team will roll out with about a million rounds of small arms ammo (.50 cal and smaller). A rifle company of less than 200 men can expend 100,000 rounds in a firefight. Thus, Henderson Defense firing 500,000 rounds a month is a big meh. During the days of the Cold War of NATO vs. Warsaw Pact, it might get a one line mention on a brigade monthly summary of operations.

Let's drill down to the M16/M4 in that rifle company. Standard loadout is 210 rounds, and many guys will carry as much as twice that if they can. Thus, in a firefight, it is possible that a single weapon (not machinegun) puts 300 rounds downrange. A firefight every day at Cold War intensity could be 9000 rounds per weapon per month. Or, the just over 100 M16/M4 equipped infantrymen would expend up to 900,000 rounds in a month of ultra high intensity combat. Some of those weapons would undoubtedly, fail, but the point is that this is what the M16 was designed to do. And just as importantly, it was tested to do this in any kind of weather from -40F to 140F.

The reason it can perform as well as it does is the Technical Data Package. The TDP specifies the tolerances for every part. Example - a takedown pin should have a diameter of .250 inches. The TDP specifies how much deviation is acceptable. Is it anywhere from .248 to .252 or .247 to .253? Only the TDP formerly owned by Colt, and now owned by the Army knows. Mil-spec really means every part conforms to the specifications required by the TDP, not it looks the same as the military uses. Until just a couple of years ago, only Colt and FN had access to the TDP. FN was prohibited from using TDP data to sell parts and weapons manufactured for the civilian market while the TDP was owned by Colt. Thus other manufacturers had to guess at parts tolerances. Based on my experience with them, some such as BCM guessed well, others did not.

The usage rates at Battlefield Vegas are well within military norms, and real mil-spec weapons would have BCGs replaced every 6 months at 50,000 rounds and barrels once a year at 100,000 rounds assuming the weapons are maintained properly. Both should be inspected at every 10,000 rounds for excessive wear and guaged for remaining in spec.

Short barreled weapons present increased wear issues. When fired, the M16 puts 19,000 psi of pressure on the bolt face, the M4 puts 24,000 psi on the bolt face and shorter barrels even more than that. This is why SOF gets to go outside of the rules of the rest of the Army on procurement and maint. They have higher OPTEMPO and thus increased wear on equipment used by people who are much too valuable to get killed, so money is put into inspecting and replacing parts long before they wear out and fail.

As a Troop Commander I was big on this because lives depended on it. As a business model, you only have to worry about customers getting the sadz (unless it blows up and your insurance company gets involved).

How reliable of a weapon you think you need and for how long determines how much risk you are willing to take in what you buy.
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 12:40:21 PM EDT
[#36]
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Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:

How reliable of a weapon you think you need and for how long determines how much risk you are willing to take in what you buy.
View Quote


Some interesting, if outdated, info there.  

But I'm totally baffled about what this has to do with someone interested in buying broken scrap bolts to make...things.
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 1:26:13 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaTrueDave:


Some interesting, if outdated, info there.  

But I'm totally baffled about what this has to do with someone interested in buying broken scrap bolts to make...things.
View Quote


Cause dammit, you're gonna want, nay  NEED  that milspec rating for your modern art masterpieces.
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 9:42:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:


From a military POV, the info in this thread is useful in seeing how resilient civilian market ARs are, but military weaponry is in a different realm.

First, lets run some numbers. A Brigade Combat Team will roll out with about a million rounds of small arms ammo (.50 cal and smaller). A rifle company of less than 200 men can expend 100,000 rounds in a firefight. Thus, Henderson Defense firing 500,000 rounds a month is a big meh. During the days of the Cold War of NATO vs. Warsaw Pact, it might get a one line mention on a brigade monthly summary of operations.

Let's drill down to the M16/M4 in that rifle company. Standard loadout is 210 rounds, and many guys will carry as much as twice that if they can. Thus, in a firefight, it is possible that a single weapon (not machinegun) puts 300 rounds downrange. A firefight every day at Cold War intensity could be 9000 rounds per weapon per month. Or, the just over 100 M16/M4 equipped infantrymen would expend up to 900,000 rounds in a month of ultra high intensity combat. Some of those weapons would undoubtedly, fail, but the point is that this is what the M16 was designed to do. And just as importantly, it was tested to do this in any kind of weather from -40F to 140F.

The reason it can perform as well as it does is the Technical Data Package. The TDP specifies the tolerances for every part. Example - a takedown pin should have a diameter of .250 inches. The TDP specifies how much deviation is acceptable. Is it anywhere from .248 to .252 or .247 to .253? Only the TDP formerly owned by Colt, and now owned by the Army knows. Mil-spec really means every part conforms to the specifications required by the TDP, not it looks the same as the military uses. Until just a couple of years ago, only Colt and FN had access to the TDP. FN was prohibited from using TDP data to sell parts and weapons manufactured for the civilian market while the TDP was owned by Colt. Thus other manufacturers had to guess at parts tolerances. Based on my experience with them, some such as BCM guessed well, others did not.

The usage rates at Battlefield Vegas are well within military norms, and real mil-spec weapons would have BCGs replaced every 6 months at 50,000 rounds and barrels once a year at 100,000 rounds assuming the weapons are maintained properly. Both should be inspected at every 10,000 rounds for excessive wear and guaged for remaining in spec.

Short barreled weapons present increased wear issues. When fired, the M16 puts 19,000 psi of pressure on the bolt face, the M4 puts 24,000 psi on the bolt face and shorter barrels even more than that. This is why SOF gets to go outside of the rules of the rest of the Army on procurement and maint. They have higher OPTEMPO and thus increased wear on equipment used by people who are much too valuable to get killed, so money is put into inspecting and replacing parts long before they wear out and fail.

As a Troop Commander I was big on this because lives depended on it. As a business model, you only have to worry about customers getting the sadz (unless it blows up and your insurance company gets involved).

How reliable of a weapon you think you need and for how long determines how much risk you are willing to take in what you buy.
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Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:

And your point is?


From a military POV, the info in this thread is useful in seeing how resilient civilian market ARs are, but military weaponry is in a different realm.

First, lets run some numbers. A Brigade Combat Team will roll out with about a million rounds of small arms ammo (.50 cal and smaller). A rifle company of less than 200 men can expend 100,000 rounds in a firefight. Thus, Henderson Defense firing 500,000 rounds a month is a big meh. During the days of the Cold War of NATO vs. Warsaw Pact, it might get a one line mention on a brigade monthly summary of operations.

Let's drill down to the M16/M4 in that rifle company. Standard loadout is 210 rounds, and many guys will carry as much as twice that if they can. Thus, in a firefight, it is possible that a single weapon (not machinegun) puts 300 rounds downrange. A firefight every day at Cold War intensity could be 9000 rounds per weapon per month. Or, the just over 100 M16/M4 equipped infantrymen would expend up to 900,000 rounds in a month of ultra high intensity combat. Some of those weapons would undoubtedly, fail, but the point is that this is what the M16 was designed to do. And just as importantly, it was tested to do this in any kind of weather from -40F to 140F.

The reason it can perform as well as it does is the Technical Data Package. The TDP specifies the tolerances for every part. Example - a takedown pin should have a diameter of .250 inches. The TDP specifies how much deviation is acceptable. Is it anywhere from .248 to .252 or .247 to .253? Only the TDP formerly owned by Colt, and now owned by the Army knows. Mil-spec really means every part conforms to the specifications required by the TDP, not it looks the same as the military uses. Until just a couple of years ago, only Colt and FN had access to the TDP. FN was prohibited from using TDP data to sell parts and weapons manufactured for the civilian market while the TDP was owned by Colt. Thus other manufacturers had to guess at parts tolerances. Based on my experience with them, some such as BCM guessed well, others did not.

The usage rates at Battlefield Vegas are well within military norms, and real mil-spec weapons would have BCGs replaced every 6 months at 50,000 rounds and barrels once a year at 100,000 rounds assuming the weapons are maintained properly. Both should be inspected at every 10,000 rounds for excessive wear and guaged for remaining in spec.

Short barreled weapons present increased wear issues. When fired, the M16 puts 19,000 psi of pressure on the bolt face, the M4 puts 24,000 psi on the bolt face and shorter barrels even more than that. This is why SOF gets to go outside of the rules of the rest of the Army on procurement and maint. They have higher OPTEMPO and thus increased wear on equipment used by people who are much too valuable to get killed, so money is put into inspecting and replacing parts long before they wear out and fail.

As a Troop Commander I was big on this because lives depended on it. As a business model, you only have to worry about customers getting the sadz (unless it blows up and your insurance company gets involved).

How reliable of a weapon you think you need and for how long determines how much risk you are willing to take in what you buy.

Holy wall of text Batman. Not once in my posts did I say these were in any way shape or form the best bolts or whatever you think I was talking about. Obviously, I'm not wanting to make guns out of broken bolts. At least I hope that's obvious. I said "I have "things" I make from old bolts". End of statement.
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 9:44:19 PM EDT
[#39]
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Originally Posted By DaTrueDave:


Some interesting, if outdated, info there.  

But I'm totally baffled about what this has to do with someone interested in buying broken scrap bolts to make...things.
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Originally Posted By DaTrueDave:
Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:

How reliable of a weapon you think you need and for how long determines how much risk you are willing to take in what you buy.


Some interesting, if outdated, info there.  

But I'm totally baffled about what this has to do with someone interested in buying broken scrap bolts to make...things.

THANK YOU! This is exactly what I'm trying to wrap my brain around.
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 9:49:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Missed this thread for 5+ years.
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 9:50:05 PM EDT
[#41]
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Originally Posted By 11C1P:


Cause dammit, you're gonna want, nay  NEED  that milspec rating for your modern art masterpieces.
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Originally Posted By 11C1P:
Originally Posted By DaTrueDave:


Some interesting, if outdated, info there.  

But I'm totally baffled about what this has to do with someone interested in buying broken scrap bolts to make...things.


Cause dammit, you're gonna want, nay  NEED  that milspec rating for your modern art masterpieces.

My bolt keychains demand the highest of quality bolts. Only those forged by Thor's hammer are worthy of EDC!

Link Posted: 4/7/2021 10:16:10 PM EDT
[#42]
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Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:

My bolt keychains demand the highest of quality bolts. Only those forged by Thor's hammer are worthy of EDC!

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/204916/20201014_163118-1635852.jpg
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That is rad!
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 10:20:50 PM EDT
[#43]
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Originally Posted By THEdtw:

That is rad!
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Originally Posted By THEdtw:
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:

My bolt keychains demand the highest of quality bolts. Only those forged by Thor's hammer are worthy of EDC!

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/204916/20201014_163118-1635852.jpg

That is rad!

Sitting in the gungeon one night and saw a piece of brass tube and thought "that looks awfully close to the same diameter of a bolt tail" and a few minutes later this was born.
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 10:42:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sinister] [#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:
... This is why SOF gets to go outside of the rules of the rest of the Army on procurement and maint. They have higher OPTEMPO and thus increased wear on equipment used by people who are much too valuable to get killed, so money is put into inspecting and replacing parts long before they wear out and fail.

How reliable of a weapon you think you need and for how long determines how much risk you are willing to take in what you buy.
View Quote

Not exactly.

Special Forces and the Ranger Regiment use the same supply chain system as all other Army units for Army-common weapons.  In the case of at least one forward-stationed battalion, their direct-support small arms maintenance is from the Air Force and Marine Corps by Joint Memorandum of Agreement.

Our armorers and supply guys have a little more intimate familiarity with the shooters and their weapons, as SF ODAs have at least two weapons guys each, responsible for keeping up on their team's maintenance.  If the part is Army-common it's a simple Class 9 part requisition.  If it's a SOF-queer item the part has to come from the SOF depot.

Info in this thread is an eye-opener for many folks to see what breaks and what they might want to stock up on.
Link Posted: 4/8/2021 12:52:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:


The reason it can perform as well as it does is the Technical Data Package. The TDP specifies the tolerances for every part. Example - a takedown pin should have a diameter of .250 inches. The TDP specifies how much deviation is acceptable. Is it anywhere from .248 to .252 or .247 to .253? Only the TDP formerly owned by Colt, and now owned by the Army knows. Mil-spec really means every part conforms to the specifications required by the TDP, not it looks the same as the military uses. Until just a couple of years ago, only Colt and FN had access to the TDP. FN was prohibited from using TDP data to sell parts and weapons manufactured for the civilian market while the TDP was owned by Colt. Thus other manufacturers had to guess at parts tolerances. Based on my experience with them, some such as BCM guessed well, others did not.
View Quote
According to the now widely available TDP, the take down pin is .250 and made from steel alloy 8620 or 86L20. Heat treat by carburization to .010+.005 total case depth and Rockwell hardness 15N 89-91. The take down pin hole in the lower is 0.251 +/- .001
Link Posted: 4/8/2021 2:28:06 PM EDT
[#46]
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Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:

THANK YOU! This is exactly what I'm trying to wrap my brain around.
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I wish you every success with your art project and apologize for discussing weapons in this thread.
Link Posted: 4/9/2021 3:13:09 PM EDT
[#47]
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Originally Posted By mcantu:
According to the now widely available TDP, the take down pin is .250 and made from steel alloy 8620 or 86L20. Heat treat by carburization to .010+.005 total case depth and Rockwell hardness 15N 89-91. The take down pin hole in the lower is 0.251 +/- .001
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Widely available or not, I have failed miserably in a cursory search.   Could be useful info for making replacement parts.
Link Posted: 4/9/2021 3:31:41 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By boltcatch:


Widely available or not, I have failed miserably in a cursory search.   Could be useful info for making replacement parts.
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Originally Posted By boltcatch:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
According to the now widely available TDP, the take down pin is .250 and made from steel alloy 8620 or 86L20. Heat treat by carburization to .010+.005 total case depth and Rockwell hardness 15N 89-91. The take down pin hole in the lower is 0.251 +/- .001


Widely available or not, I have failed miserably in a cursory search.   Could be useful info for making replacement parts.


@boltcatch


Poke around HERE some.  
Link Posted: 4/9/2021 5:36:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/10/2021 6:18:45 PM EDT
[#50]
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