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Posted: 5/4/2004 11:58:51 AM EST
IF THIS HAS BEEN ASKED RECENTLY I APPOLOGISE : hAS THERE BEEN ANY WORD OF WHEN OR IF HK PLANS ON SELLING THOSE UPPERS TO GENERAL PUBLIC. SOLDIER OF FURTUNE RECENTLY SAID THEY WOULD BUT WAS HAZY ON THE RELEASE INFO.......THANKS FOR ANY WORD......
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 12:07:06 PM EST
I havent heard a single thing about them being released to the public, but I really want one too. Just figured I would reply and keep the topic up top.:)
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 12:21:17 PM EST
No need to yell about it (caps lock), I'm sure someone will hear you.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 1:08:54 PM EST
Colt have filed suit against HK. Since then, all references to the HKM4 have vanished from the official HK website.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 1:42:46 PM EST
Yes there is news, but its bad news:
no H&K M4s for civvies
-news courtesy of SMGLee
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 2:12:28 PM EST
I'll probably get an HK upper, but reports of our guys out in the middle east with reliable LMT uppers makes you want to rethink about going to a modified design.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 2:18:11 PM EST
I have to go through that kind of trouble to get something whose maker doesn't want me to have? To hell with HK. I'll spend my money on the likes of KAC, ARMS, LMT, Troy Ind. etc. , they haven't forgotten whose interests the LEOs and federal troops are supposed to serve, the people of this country.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 5:42:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 5:45:00 PM EST by HKocher]


Reposted from HKPRO, from the mouth of SMGLee
This is directly from HK,

HK does not plan to sell any M4D to the civilian market. at this time the production will start to deliver LEO or military personnel by late 04. It is up to the individual dealers to obtain the proper credituals from the purchaser for qualification to purchase the HK M4D. any delaer caught selling to civilain will therefore lose their dealer licenses.

If you are a LEO and you can provide a badge and ID card, you will be able to buy a HK upper from a auth. HK dealer.
This doesn't mean you couldn't sell it to your buddy next door.

If you notice at the Shot show, HK had civilian friendly M4 on display, but since the Shot Show the higher ups decideded against the idea. so you never know if someone will decide to sell to the civilian again...



I didn't even want one, but after this they can go F themselves if they think they're getting any more money from me.

It's one thing to not plan for civvy sales (if they had a bunch of LE and Mil. orders to fill), but to actually PUNISH dealer for selling a 100% legal item to civvies, that's just disgusting.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 6:01:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 6:03:10 PM EST by Boom_Stick]

Originally Posted By Ahab:
Yes there is news, but its bad news:
no H&K M4s for civvies
-news courtesy of SMGLee



Thats OK, there's always American made Colt M4's to be had!

Screw those germans H&K bastards anyways.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 6:52:25 AM EST
Sorry about the caps -- didn't realize -- Thanks for the replies. I have to agree with some of the posts as well. HK has never been civilian friendly so why should they start now. I can't remember how many times their customer service gave me the run around over the years. I just hope that the concept of a piston driven action finds its way over at the big manufacturers but I wont hold my breath. Oh well, my Bushmaster works just fine as is. Would be nice to start a new AR project with that stuff though. Later -- J.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 8:30:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By deltaopwong:
I'll probably get an HK upper, but reports of our guys out in the middle east with reliable LMT uppers makes you want to rethink about going to a modified design.



Reliable or not reliable? Can you fill in some details?
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:14:59 AM EST
Although I am not on the HK bandwagon, I am going to offer up this:

HK does not want to jeopardize (sp?) it's chances of a fat, jucy US Gov't/large LEO contract. Yes, they are building a plant in Georgia, but, it is for anticipated military/LEO orders. Look at FN, they do not sell civilian AR's. They (and HK) could make money doing it, but why risk potentially pissing off Uncle Sugar and losing a very lucrative contract? I think decisions like that suck for us civilians, but those guys are out to make as much money as they possibly can.

Look at it another way:

If your corporation manufactured firearms and had two choices:

1) Sell only to Gov't/LEO (no lawsuits from local gov'ts/anti-gun folks/etc)

2) Sell to civilians (potential costly legal liability)

Which would you probably choose?



Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:22:37 AM EST
FN are restricted under strict licensing agreements with Colt. They cannot make M16's for anyone other than the US military, I suspect they would love to make a commercial model.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:26:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
FN are restricted under strict licensing agreements with Colt. They cannot make M16's for anyone other than the US military, I suspect they would love to make a commercial model.



Hip,

I think you are mistaken here. IIRC, Colt flat-out lost to FN on the current M16 contract with the US Gov't. The AR15/M16 patents have expired (hence all of the other AR manufacturers). Only the M4 carbine is proprietary to Colt.....
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 11:36:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
FN are restricted under strict licensing agreements with Colt. They cannot make M16's for anyone other than the US military, I suspect they would love to make a commercial model.



I don't know anything about any licensing agreements, but I seriously doubt that FN would love to make a commercial model.

FN has a very large product line of firearms, very few of which they make availible to civilians.

Even the ones that are civvy legal are NOT marketed towards us. When is the last time you saw FN promoting a firearm that was not aimed towards LE or mil.?

Basically FN throws us a couple bones with some of their handguns, some of their bolt guns, and a couple shotguns.

They're just as bad (if not worse) than HK with regards to civvy sales.

Link Posted: 5/5/2004 12:03:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By mo4040:
Although I am not on the HK bandwagon, I am going to offer up this:

HK does not want to jeopardize (sp?) it's chances of a fat, jucy US Gov't/large LEO contract. Yes, they are building a plant in Georgia, but, it is for anticipated military/LEO orders. Look at FN, they do not sell civilian AR's. They (and HK) could make money doing it, but why risk potentially pissing off Uncle Sugar and losing a very lucrative contract? I think decisions like that suck for us civilians, but those guys are out to make as much money as they possibly can.

Look at it another way:

If your corporation manufactured firearms and had two choices:

1) Sell only to Gov't/LEO (no lawsuits from local gov'ts/anti-gun folks/etc)

2) Sell to civilians (potential costly legal liability)

Which would you probably choose?



There are plenty of manufacturers who have big fat Government contracts, and still sell to civilians:

- Colt
- Beretta
- Bushmaster
- Rock River Arms

Just to name a few. The fact is that HK is run by a bunch of elitest Krauts who don't support our 2nd Amendment! Screw HK. I traded in my SL8 for a Bushmaster, and I'll never buy another HK as long as I live!!!
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 12:12:13 PM EST


Hip,

I think you are mistaken here. IIRC, Colt flat-out lost to FN on the current M16 contract with the US Gov't. The AR15/M16 patents have expired (hence all of the other AR manufacturers). Only the M4 carbine is proprietary to Colt.....


Patents are not the issue, lic. agreements extend as long as the licensor, in this case Colt, agree, in thisa case made Colt give FN the lic. under certain terms. The Tech data pkg. remains the property of Colt since they were the developer of the M16A2 and M4.
Other companies do not have the gov't certified tech data pkg's and only make items based on reverse engineering.
Jack
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 12:13:28 PM EST
My post concerning the good reports about the LMT uppers comes from the fact that many guys overseas military/civilian contractors are customers of Wes of MSTN. As far as I know, most of those posts are of happy customers with reliable 10.5 / 14.5 etc. uppers out there in the desert. I'm sure if any guys out there have internet access and could post, they could vouch for the performance of the LMT uppers. Stan
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 12:22:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:

Hip,

I think you are mistaken here. IIRC, Colt flat-out lost to FN on the current M16 contract with the US Gov't. The AR15/M16 patents have expired (hence all of the other AR manufacturers). Only the M4 carbine is proprietary to Colt.....


Patents are not the issue, lic. agreements extend as long as the licensor, in this case Colt, agree, in thisa case made Colt give FN the lic. under certain terms. The Tech data pkg. remains the property of Colt since they were the developer of the M16A2 and M4.
Other companies do not have the gov't certified tech data pkg's and only make items based on reverse engineering.
Jack



jack,

If I read you correctly then, Colt did not lose the M16 contract to FN? I had thought that FN beat out Colt for the contract, hence their (FN) building a plant in South Carolina.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 12:59:38 PM EST
WHat gets me is that

1. HK split into two companies, one for LE/MIL and one for NOn-Le civvie sales, so each has to stay afloat on its own
2. THey HAD a semi-only version at the SHOT show ... WHY N OT JUST BLOODY SELL IT? Plus, it had some really sweet handguards (go find the photos and see what I'm talking about) that I hadn't seen anywhere else.

If they rreally are going to be elitist tards, theN I may have to rethink my decision to buy a USP/P2000. If we all hit them in the pocketbook, maybe they'd think twice about selling civvie rifles. They sold LOTS of them in the 80s. The rifles they do offer know blow, and they know it.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 1:08:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

There are plenty of manufacturers who have big fat Government contracts, and still sell to civilians:

- Colt
- Beretta
- Bushmaster
- Rock River Arms

Just to name a few. The fact is that HK is run by a bunch of elitest Krauts who don't support our 2nd Amendment! Screw HK. I traded in my SL8 for a Bushmaster, and I'll never buy another HK as long as I live!!!



Colt is barely surviving, they had to splite the company in civilian and military, they don't care if the civilian side die in the future because it is the military sie that is making the big bucks for them.

Bushmaster and RRA has small contract compare to what HK is looking at.

Beretta has a lot more resources then HK.

HK had the idea of selling to civilains at the shot show that is why you saw civilian version of the HK M$D on display(M$ is used to avoid any law suit by Colt ) Soon after HK decided the civilian market is not worth the liability and they decide to pursuit the military and LE market. any HK dealer can purcahse the M$ upper without a letter. it is up to the dealer to sell it to whom ever. Remington only sell the PSS to remington LE dealers, it is up to the dealer to sell it to who ever. and you see PSS in the hands of civilain shooter all over the place. I think you should just wait and see what is the actual ruling on the sales on the upper later this year by HK. with the AWB going away, HK might just change their mond again.

for now, HK M$D is a military/LE item only.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 1:10:50 PM EST
FN competed for the M16 contract and won, however, Jack is right in that the tech data package is owned by Colt and is under very strict control. The only companies that can supply the US military with anything designated M16, M4, A1, A2, A3 etc are Colt, FN and Saco Defense. As far as the tech data pack goes, FN are unable to market anything that directly competes with Colt's commercial line i.e. a AR15 type rifle and they can only build the M16 for US Government orders under 32,000 units.
HFG
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 1:13:44 PM EST
I'm going to wait and see what happens. After the sunset will be a better time to judge HK...it is still early days. Trying to figure out what HK and Sig plan on doing after the ban at this point is trying to figure out when ppl. will be getting their Shrikes.

Kevin
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 1:39:01 PM EST


If I read you correctly then, Colt did not lose the M16 contract to FN? I had thought that FN beat out Colt for the contract, hence their (FN) building a plant in South Carolina.

NO, that is not what I said. Obviously Colt lost the contract to FNMI, thats why FNMI had to pay Colt for Colts Propietary tech data pkg., so they could make and deliver the M16A2 to the military, and no one else. Like a rented car you can use under agreement. An agreement forced by the gov't under a bidding war.
Jack
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 2:00:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 2:01:39 PM EST by CJan_NH]
In 1988 Colt lost the M-16 contract to FN, but it is rarely mentioned that in 1998 Colt got the contract back with an order for over 32,000 units.

"1998 proves to be an eventful year for Colt. Especially noteworthy is the return to Colt of the U.S. Government contract for procurement of M-16 rifles in excess of 32,000 units. Complimenting this is a contract for updating 88,000 M-16A1 rifles to the A2 configuration for the U.S. Air Force."

COLT LINK

Fiscal year 2003 was the first in many years that Colt posted a profit, and they have military contracts secured through 2010.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 2:17:07 PM EST

If they rreally are going to be elitist tards, theN I may have to rethink my decision to buy a USP/P2000. If we all hit them in the pocketbook, maybe they'd think twice about selling civvie rifles. They sold LOTS of them in the 80s. The rifles they do offer know blow, and they know it.

Over the years HK offered many products designed and built specifically for the American market:

The HK41
The HK91
The HK93
The HK94
The SR9 Series
The SP89

And although some of those weapons were functionally similar to others in their product line they still had to proof and approve each specific model. Do you have any idea how horrendously damned expensive that process is?

Now, they deveoloped, proofed, and approved at least SIX weapons specifically for US consumption. Of those six listed, how many can still be sold here?

Zero is it?

Can any of you blame HK for not wanting to screw around with a civilian version of their M4 upper when the political whims of this country can change on a dime? How many frivilous lawsuits are pending against other firearms manufacturers?

Why in the HELL would HK want to jump in?



Link Posted: 5/5/2004 7:24:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
Colt have filed suit against HK. Since then, all references to the HKM4 have vanished from the official HK website.



Will Colt's sue Benelli for their use of M4 for their new shotgun?
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 7:46:49 PM EST
I dont know shit about the insider info of HK, Colt, BushMaster, exc....but man some of you do...lol...
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:12:37 PM EST
Actually, I was sort of hoping LMT would respond to th HKM$ & make a piston version upper based on their MRP. I'm talking about retaining the easy-change bbl. with a captive (but servicable) piston in place of the gas tube.

Here's hoping someone of significant authority &/or with/at LMT will read this.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 3:48:55 AM EST

Will Colt's sue Benelli for their use of M4 for their new shotgun?


Only if it is marketed in the same way as the Colt M4 to give the impression it's the same weapon. In other words - NO.


Actually, I was sort of hoping LMT would respond to th HKM$ & make a piston version upper based on their MRP. I'm talking about retaining the easy-change bbl. with a captive (but servicable) piston in place of the gas tube.

Here's hoping someone of significant authority &/or with/at LMT will read this.



There's some interesting stuff happening at the moment, a lot of which is going to become public in the next few weeks.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 4:40:53 AM EST
I can't understand why anyone would want the HK version.

Wow! I can overpay for another German Turd! Yeah!
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:22:52 AM EST
IT's no secrete that LMT will be offering a PISTON version of their upper soon.


HK will start shipping their PISTON uppers in NOV. 04
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:29:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
Actually, I was sort of hoping LMT would respond to th HKM$ & make a piston version upper based on their MRP. I'm talking about retaining the easy-change bbl. with a captive (but servicable) piston in place of the gas tube.

Here's hoping someone of significant authority &/or with/at LMT will read this.



You just might get your wish.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 8:13:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:

If they rreally are going to be elitist tards, theN I may have to rethink my decision to buy a USP/P2000. If we all hit them in the pocketbook, maybe they'd think twice about selling civvie rifles. They sold LOTS of them in the 80s. The rifles they do offer know blow, and they know it.

Over the years HK offered many products designed and built specifically for the American market:

The HK41
The HK91
The HK93
The HK94
The SR9 Series
The SP89

And although some of those weapons were functionally similar to others in their product line they still had to proof and approve each specific model. Do you have any idea how horrendously damned expensive that process is?

Now, they deveoloped, proofed, and approved at least SIX weapons specifically for US consumption. Of those six listed, how many can still be sold here?

Zero is it?

Can any of you blame HK for not wanting to screw around with a civilian version of their M4 upper when the political whims of this country can change on a dime? How many frivilous lawsuits are pending against other firearms manufacturers?





Well my point sort-of was that with the new factory, all the previous concerns disappear if they manufacture the abovementioned longarms domestically.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 12:01:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2004 12:01:34 PM EST by CJan_NH]

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:

If they rreally are going to be elitist tards, theN I may have to rethink my decision to buy a USP/P2000. If we all hit them in the pocketbook, maybe they'd think twice about selling civvie rifles. They sold LOTS of them in the 80s. The rifles they do offer know blow, and they know it.

Over the years HK offered many products designed and built specifically for the American market:

The HK41
The HK91
The HK93
The HK94
The SR9 Series
The SP89

And although some of those weapons were functionally similar to others in their product line they still had to proof and approve each specific model. Do you have any idea how horrendously damned expensive that process is?

Now, they deveoloped, proofed, and approved at least SIX weapons specifically for US consumption. Of those six listed, how many can still be sold here?

Zero is it?

Can any of you blame HK for not wanting to screw around with a civilian version of their M4 upper when the political whims of this country can change on a dime? How many frivilous lawsuits are pending against other firearms manufacturers?





Well my point sort-of was that with the new factory, all the previous concerns disappear if they manufacture the abovementioned longarms domestically.


I see your point, but if HK holds back they won't be the only one who does. My own employer has made a conscious decision to do much the same thing, despite company purists like me begging them to do otherwise.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 2:37:15 PM EST
Ah, no news is good news in this case.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 3:55:58 PM EST
Competition from LMT with a piston upper would be great.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 4:34:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
I see your point, but if HK holds back they won't be the only one who does. My own employer has made a conscious decision to do much the same thing, despite company purists like me begging them to do otherwise.




I had no idea you worked for them, I just thought you liked their rifles. *Files factoid away*
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:04:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2004 5:13:43 PM EST by CJan_NH]

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
I see your point, but if HK holds back they won't be the only one who does. My own employer has made a conscious decision to do much the same thing, despite company purists like me begging them to do otherwise.




I had no idea you worked for them, I just thought you liked their rifles. *Files factoid away*


Oh no, I don't work for HK

Please accept my apology-I should have been clearer. In addition to my part time gig as a commercial mortgage loan officer I work full time in quality assurance and testing for a company similiar to HK here in Exeter. My part time job pays for my toys, private school for my daughter etc. My full time career ironically pays a lot less, but it's in the field that I love

Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:23:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
Oh no, I don't work for HK

Please accept my apology-I should have been clearer. In addition to my part time gig as a commercial mortgage loan officer I work full time in quality assurance and testing for a company similiar to HK here in Exeter. My part time job pays for my toys, private school for my daughter etc. My full time career ironically pays a lot less, but it's in the field that I love




Actually I was assuming you worked at Colt, but since you said Exeter I gotcha.

Pretty please can we have the 550. Yeah, I know what you said earlier.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:27:03 PM EST
I would link to pictures to show you, but I don't know where to find them now.

Anyway, did anyone notice the new handguard style on the 20" HKM4 ? They were really beautiful. Here's hoping we can at the least get ahold of the handguards , if not complete uppers.

Personally, I don't care about an HK marked lower either way.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:07:48 PM EST
Here you are, Pics of the HK AR15 "POST BAN"



and me playing with it.



Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:20:53 PM EST
LMT piston upper?

Christmas is close right

Yeehaa!
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:50:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
Oh no, I don't work for HK

Please accept my apology-I should have been clearer. In addition to my part time gig as a commercial mortgage loan officer I work full time in quality assurance and testing for a company similiar to HK here in Exeter. My part time job pays for my toys, private school for my daughter etc. My full time career ironically pays a lot less, but it's in the field that I love




Actually I was assuming you worked at Colt, but since you said Exeter I gotcha.

Pretty please can we have the 550. Yeah, I know what you said earlier.


If it was my call I'd have a consecutively numbered pair delivered to you tomorrow If I ran the country there would be a 551-2 SP (or an M4/M16/HK91/FAL your choice) in every household. Ammunition and training would be fully tax deductable as well

Sadly, I'm just a minor spoke in the wheel. Such decisions are miles above the pay grade of a measily micrometer monkey (3M) like me
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 4:45:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
Actually, I was sort of hoping LMT would respond to th HKM$ & make a piston version upper based on their MRP. I'm talking about retaining the easy-change bbl. with a captive (but servicable) piston in place of the gas tube.

Here's hoping someone of significant authority &/or with/at LMT will read this.



You just might get your wish.



Do tell? First I've heard of it. I first thought of the idea myself after seeing the original MRP, but I never thought anyone would actually implement it. The combination monolith. rail+easy-change bbl.+indirect impingement operation could be the best thing to happen to the AR design since the M4 upgrade itself - if it executes well.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 3:13:34 PM EST
When I spoke to their reps at the NRA show last month the answer was pretty simple.

"Not unless the crime bill is overturned."
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 5:58:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Snaps:
When I spoke to their reps at the NRA show last month the answer was pretty simple.

"Not unless the crime bill is overturned."



No need to overturn something that automatically expires in Sept.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:45:40 PM EST
but I'm pretty sure the crimebill included more than the "AW BAN" and only the ban is up to expire. I could be wrong though.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:48:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 7:49:37 PM EST by HeavyMetal]
Why would H&K give a crap about the non-firearm portions of the Crime Bill that has no effect on them? Thats like saying "We are waiting for the US to go back on the gold standard before selling to the public" which is a big non-sequitr.

Sounds like the H&K rep was short a clue or two.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 9:37:01 AM EST
Getting a hold of their SA 80 mags recently was a real pain. If i wouldn't have had letterhead and an FFL, I don't think I'd have gotten the mags. HK is a little too restrictive in my book.

Link Posted: 5/9/2004 11:52:17 AM EST
hell with them though, I'm buying a colt lower and going from there.
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