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Posted: 11/13/2005 5:40:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2005 5:45:34 PM EDT by wantabe]
www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/ Click on Training Group.
I once own a H&K 93. Loved the gun. Never had any problems. I am wondering if the 416 is as good?
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 5:40:56 PM EDT
You won't be able to buy one, so it's a moot point.
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 5:58:27 PM EDT
I shot one and I really liked it but it felt different. The recoil impulse is different and I really liked the sights.
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 6:00:44 PM EDT
Sunday, November 13, 2005

H&K, like Colt, has for all intent and proposes has withdrawn for the U.S. civilian market. I have a good friend who is a Class 3 dealer here in Las Vegas who has very close contacts with the military, and he is a H&K Law Enforcement and military armor. He just went to the re-qualification training at H&K Headquarters in Virginia and he tells me that while he was there, he was not allowed to talk about or even look at the H&K 416 weapons’ system and the trainer made it clear that the H&K 416 system was a military or Federal Law Enforcement special item only and H&K had no intention of releasing these items for sale to state and local law enforcement and civilians.


In short, it will be a very cold day in hell before any-one who is a regular to the AR15.Com webpage has the opportunity to purchase a H&K 416 upper or complete weapon.

I do not even think about it or read about it. What for? Why get my underwear in a knot over something it can never own?

Taker Care…


MP5 Machinenpistole
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 6:07:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2005 6:07:52 PM EDT by wantabe]
Thanks. I just happened upon the site. Too late I got excited about it. Now I am not happy. Maybe we can buy the clips. I do not own any guns now. Thinking about a Bushmaster. Not sure if I want to go carbon or not.
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 6:24:14 PM EDT
Yes, H&K's corporate leaders decided that the American civilian market just wasn't worth it for them. They seem to want to make sure that only the "good guys" get their weapons these days or something. Meh, i'll just send my mall ninja money to LMT and FN, those companies rock!

about the H&K high reliability magazines, I have a few and have few extra for sale on the EE. I hear that they are quite favored by our troops in the field, because uncle sam is the one to hook them up. At $40-$50 a pop, they are like the super sports cars of the AR world. Over priced, horrible bang for buck ratio, but when you got the money and care only about performance (reliability)...
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 6:27:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wantabe:
Thanks. I just happened upon the site. Too late I got excited about it. Now I am not happy. Maybe we can buy the clips. I do not own any guns now. Thinking about a Bushmaster. Not sure if I want to go carbon or not.



I wouldn't get a carbon if I were you. Do some searching on it before you make a decision.
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 7:40:53 PM EDT
Several H&K 416 uppers were sold on www.AR15.com in the last few months. They were never meant to be sold directly to the civilian market either, but they were, 100% legally too I might add. The closest part of the sale to being illegal was the raping of the purchasers at around $2k each upper I think...
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 10:01:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:
Several H&K 416 uppers were sold on www.AR15.com in the last few months. They were never meant to be sold directly to the civilian market either, but they were, 100% legally too I might add. The closest part of the sale to being illegal was the raping of the purchasers at around $2k each upper I think...



tru dat
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 10:26:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MP5MachinenPistole:

...and he tells me that while he was there, he was not allowed to talk about or even look at the H&K 416 weapons’ system and the trainer made it clear that the H&K 416 system was a military or Federal Law Enforcement special item only and H&K had no intention of releasing these items for sale to state and local law enforcement and civilians.




HK, get the FUCK over yourselves.. it's a piston upper for an AR15/M16, not the holy revelation of the virgin Mary. Can they REALLY be this stupid? Can they REALLY ignore the ocean of cash that's waiting for them if they correct their cranial-rectal inversion? I find it difficult to believe that they're so attached to the .gov tit that they think a simple AR upgrade is practically a matter of national security.

And this is JUST the 416.. I'm not going into semi G36's or anything that would actually interest me.
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 10:37:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By MP5MachinenPistole:

...and he tells me that while he was there, he was not allowed to talk about or even look at the H&K 416 weapons’ system and the trainer made it clear that the H&K 416 system was a military or Federal Law Enforcement special item only and H&K had no intention of releasing these items for sale to state and local law enforcement and civilians.




HK, get the FUCK over yourselves.. it's a piston upper for an AR15/M16, not the holy revelation of the virgin Mary. Can they REALLY be this stupid? Can they REALLY ignore the ocean of cash that's waiting for them if they correct their cranial-rectal inversion? I find it difficult to believe that they're so attached to the .gov tit that they think a simple AR upgrade is practically a matter of national security.

And this is JUST the 416.. I'm not going into semi G36's or anything that would actually interest me.

+1
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 11:28:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2005 11:29:12 PM EDT by brushdog]

Originally Posted By JosephR:
Several H&K 416 uppers were sold on www.AR15.com in the last few months. They were never meant to be sold directly to the civilian market either, but they were, 100% legally too I might add. The closest part of the sale to being illegal was the raping of the purchasers at around $2k each upper I think...



Not if they do it voluntarily.

WTB HK416 upper will pay 3500.00

Kind of like violating yourself.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:06:53 AM EDT
Well, unless they have the import permit already approved, HK cant sell them to the civilian market anyway.. Same "reevaluation" of the law that prohibits barrels for AKs, FALs, Etc also prevents these.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 6:09:50 AM EDT
This is an interesting read, although some may call it pure HK marketing stuff, it is Janes Defense work, and does contain a lot of valid information on the M4/M16 and the new M416

Jane's Defense: HK M416 Review

This is after all what the others are attempting to prove (POF, Leitner-Wise, FN, etc)
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 6:27:15 AM EDT
Those selfish Germans!!! They're also holding back on their Sig line of pistols!

what a travesty.

www.sauer-waffen.de/index.php?id=485&lang=en
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 6:41:05 AM EDT
The way the krauts have supported our war on terror...I wouldn't buy squat from them
having owned 3 or 4 M91s 2 M93s and SR-9 and with 50 HK91 mags sitting in my
basement I would not buy another.

Simply of bunch of NWO elitetists- IMO

I will root for Leitner-Wise, POF and even Robinson to get a govt contract before I would
for H&K...

my .02
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 6:42:52 AM EDT
They are out there, you just gotta spend the $2000+ for an upper.

If I had the xtra cash to waste on a upper I would get one.

I want one just because HK said I cant have it

I think I would rather spend the money on a P90 or a FN2000.

At least my money will go to American gun builders who want to sell me their products.

FREE

Link Posted: 11/14/2005 6:43:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 7:22:31 AM EDT by KCMojo]
Excuse my possible ignorance, but is not the DS Arms GTC 223 (Gas Trap System) The same system? Plus available and more affordable than the HK? http://www.dsarms.com/images/Z4CROS.gif

www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=DSZM4GTC&storeid=1ℑ=Z4CROS.gif

www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=714


Originally Posted By wantabe:
Not sure if I want to go carbon or not.


Talk to HK_Dude if you are interested in the Carbon. He has 3 or 4. I love my Carbon M4. Some people poo poo the carbon, but they strike me as the same people who in the past hated aluminum, the 5.56, and glocks, but now love them. I had a rant on this I don't need to repeat:
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=256638


Originally Posted By 9divdoc:
The way the krauts have supported our war on terror...I wouldn't buy squat from them


Knowing some Germans personally, almost as family I have some insight into this. Most germans in the street are behind the war(s). would like to see it expanded. They and I agree that M1 tanks should be in downtown Damascus. So much so that they went to the polls and threw the greenies out on their ass. We should see some different attitude from the Bundestag. Not that the press will tell you the truth. That I am sure H&K is already in line with for both political and monetary reasons.have

That being said I also encourage you to look into american made. See above.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 8:28:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 8:30:35 AM EDT by ian187]

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By MP5MachinenPistole:

...and he tells me that while he was there, he was not allowed to talk about or even look at the H&K 416 weapons’ system and the trainer made it clear that the H&K 416 system was a military or Federal Law Enforcement special item only and H&K had no intention of releasing these items for sale to state and local law enforcement and civilians.




HK, get the FUCK over yourselves.. it's a piston upper for an AR15/M16, not the holy revelation of the virgin Mary. Can they REALLY be this stupid? Can they REALLY ignore the ocean of cash that's waiting for them if they correct their cranial-rectal inversion? I find it difficult to believe that they're so attached to the .gov tit that they think a simple AR upgrade is practically a matter of national security.

And this is JUST the 416.. I'm not going into semi G36's or anything that would actually interest me.



I think you are very short sighted and out of line. Over the years HK has made every effort to sell to the American market but has continuously been given a hard time by the State Department. They modified their firearms to comply with ever increasing draconian laws and have been rewarded by further legislative restriction. It is to the point that selling to LEO market is no different than selling to the civilian market and that is just a huge pain in the ass for them. It is no surprise they have given up on us, our government has kicked them in the nuts as often as possible.

Look at it this way, HK is one of the largest manufacturers in the world, why should they sell to us when we are telling them we do not want them hear? And before you stand up and scream you do want them, the people who represent you to foreign countries and companies do not. If you want to be pissed and accuse someone of being an elitist then you should point your finger at our government, that is who is keeping HK from selling here.

And just for the record, I am not a very big HK fan. I have my share of them but do not subscribe to them being the best. What I've said can easily be applied to any other manufacturer that is selling on a world level but is ignoring the US civilian market.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 9:26:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SOT_II:
You won't be able to buy one, so it's a moot point.



Yes, you will.... But, only the 16" model.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 9:34:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 9:37:40 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By KCMojo:
Excuse my possible ignorance, but is not the DS Arms GTC 223 (Gas Trap System) The same system? Plus available and more affordable than the HK?



No, and your ignorance is excused.
It is a good system, but the POF system is different than the HK416 gas sytem. The HK piston is more like the LW setup than the POF piston. As I said, both are good, but the POF system disassembles like a FN FAL with the gas plug, and is a bit heavier.

I like the POF system(marketed by DSA as the GTC), but is is not the same the H416.

They both use a gas piston, that is where the similarity ends.

I'm too lazy to post all the pics that have been posted in the past on the many gas piston discussions over the last 12 months. Buy a membership and you can search the AR15.COM archives. this has been discussed AD NAUSEUM in the past year.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 10:36:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KCMojo:
Excuse my possible ignorance, but is not the DS Arms GTC 223 (Gas Trap System) The same system? Plus available and more affordable than the HK?


And DSA is just selling a rebadged P.O.F. unit.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:29:06 AM EDT
Same principle, different rifles. The CROS uses Predator's piston system and the ugly ass rail system they developed over a year ago.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:36:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 11:53:04 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By JosephR:
Same principle, different rifles. The CROS uses Predator's piston system and the ugly ass rail system they developed over a year ago.



OK let's set the record straight here...

"Predator" is the name of the rail system, not the manufacturer of the piston upper depicted in the DS Arms ad for the GTC.

The manufacturer is P.O.F. (Patriot Ordnance Factory), not "Predator".

The "Predator" rail system, manufactured by P.O.F., has been out for much longer than a year, and while it may be ugly, it is very solid.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 1:44:21 PM EDT
aw shit. Sorry!


Patriot Ordinance Factory USA makes the Predator. Maybe it has been out for more than a year, but it hasn't gotten any better in over a year!

The predator is quite large along the top rail and had noone decided they needed to use it to hide a piston system, it wouldn't be around much anymore...

Link Posted: 11/14/2005 1:56:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 9divdoc:
The way the krauts have supported our war on terror...I wouldn't buy squat from them
having owned 3 or 4 M91s 2 M93s and SR-9 and with 50 HK91 mags sitting in my
basement I would not buy another.

Simply of bunch of NWO elitists- IMO

I will root for Leitner-Wise, POF and even Robinson to get a govt contract before I would
for H&K...

my .02



thats pretty harsh, 9divdoc.

But I share your pain and your enthusiasm for the competition

(BTW: you have my vote for the site's best avatar!)
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 2:14:11 PM EDT
If the 416-type system becomes standard for future ARs, then won't already respected civy companies like bushmaster and others make their own version?
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 8:40:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
If the 416-type system becomes standard for future ARs, then won't already respected civy companies like bushmaster and others make their own version?



They can if the design varies enough to not be a patent infringment, but that will mean Bushmaster will have to start getting their front sight bases on straight
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 8:54:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:

I think you are very short sighted and out of line. Over the years HK has made every effort to sell to the American market but has continuously been given a hard time by the State Department. They modified their firearms to comply with ever increasing draconian laws and have been rewarded by further legislative restriction. It is to the point that selling to LEO market is no different than selling to the civilian market and that is just a huge pain in the ass for them. It is no surprise they have given up on us, our government has kicked them in the nuts as often as possible.

Look at it this way, HK is one of the largest manufacturers in the world, why should they sell to us when we are telling them we do not want them hear? And before you stand up and scream you do want them, the people who represent you to foreign countries and companies do not. If you want to be pissed and accuse someone of being an elitist then you should point your finger at our government, that is who is keeping HK from selling here.

And just for the record, I am not a very big HK fan. I have my share of them but do not subscribe to them being the best. What I've said can easily be applied to any other manufacturer that is selling on a world level but is ignoring the US civilian market.



Sorry, but I towed the HK apologist line for too long. I readily acknowledge the efforts they've made over the years to comply with our laws, but with the AWB gone for over a year, and other companies like FN stepping up to the plate, they've got no excuse. Even the greenest marketing intern could spend a month or two cruising the forums and talking to gunshop patrons and see the windfall that would be waiting for them with the addition of just one or two product lines.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 9:58:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By ian187:

I think you are very short sighted and out of line. Over the years HK has made every effort to sell to the American market but has continuously been given a hard time by the State Department. They modified their firearms to comply with ever increasing draconian laws and have been rewarded by further legislative restriction. It is to the point that selling to LEO market is no different than selling to the civilian market and that is just a huge pain in the ass for them. It is no surprise they have given up on us, our government has kicked them in the nuts as often as possible.

Look at it this way, HK is one of the largest manufacturers in the world, why should they sell to us when we are telling them we do not want them hear? And before you stand up and scream you do want them, the people who represent you to foreign countries and companies do not. If you want to be pissed and accuse someone of being an elitist then you should point your finger at our government, that is who is keeping HK from selling here.

And just for the record, I am not a very big HK fan. I have my share of them but do not subscribe to them being the best. What I've said can easily be applied to any other manufacturer that is selling on a world level but is ignoring the US civilian market.



Sorry, but I towed the HK apologist line for too long. I readily acknowledge the efforts they've made over the years to comply with our laws, but with the AWB gone for over a year, and other companies like FN stepping up to the plate, they've got no excuse. Even the greenest marketing intern could spend a month or two cruising the forums and talking to gunshop patrons and see the windfall that would be waiting for them with the addition of just one or two product lines.



FN has a factory in the United States to build M-16s. From that factory they can build civilian legal semi-autos. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that HK has an American factory. They've purchased land for a factory, but that was in anticipation of the adoption of the XM-8. Maybe if the 416 gets adopted HK will build a factory and then be able to assemble rifles for us, but I don't think they are going to build a new factory in a saturated market just for civilian rifles.

Link Posted: 11/14/2005 10:15:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By ian187:

I think you are very short sighted and out of line. Over the years HK has made every effort to sell to the American market but has continuously been given a hard time by the State Department.



Even the greenest marketing intern could spend a month or two cruising the forums and talking to gunshop patrons and see the windfall that would be waiting for them with the addition of just one or two product lines.



Well, in this we see the shift of the tides. H&K held the best brand image of any firearms manufacturer for the longest time, just like Benz used to be the best... Is FN going to develop into the new leader of the market? I myself can't wait for the FN2000, need to start saving pennies now!
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 10:28:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By ian187:

I think you are very short sighted and out of line. Over the years HK has made every effort to sell to the American market but has continuously been given a hard time by the State Department.



Even the greenest marketing intern could spend a month or two cruising the forums and talking to gunshop patrons and see the windfall that would be waiting for them with the addition of just one or two product lines.



Well, in this we see the shift of the tides. H&K held the best brand image of any firearms manufacturer for the longest time, just like Benz used to be the best... Is FN going to develop into the new leader of the market? I myself can't wait for the FN2000, need to start saving pennies now!



Dont forget steyr. They are coming out to play too since they also have a plant here in the usa now


Link Posted: 11/14/2005 10:35:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

FN has a factory in the United States to build M-16s. From that factory they can build civilian legal semi-autos. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that HK has an American factory. They've purchased land for a factory, but that was in anticipation of the adoption of the XM-8. Maybe if the 416 gets adopted HK will build a factory and then be able to assemble rifles for us, but I don't think they are going to build a new factory in a saturated market just for civilian rifles.




They may have started the plant in anticipation of XM8 orders, but to let it rot while US customers slaver for semi G36s and UMPs is nothing short of gross ignorance.

There is no such thing as a saturated US market for HK weapons. ORF, JLD, Vector and innumerable custom builders prove this EVERY DAY.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:05:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

They may have started the plant in anticipation of XM8 orders, but to let it rot while US customers slaver for semi G36s and UMPs is nothing short of gross ignorance.

There is no such thing as a saturated US market for HK weapons. ORF, JLD, Vector and innumerable custom builders prove this EVERY DAY.



I don't believe they've even started it yet. They've only purchased land IIRC. The point is that there are already a lot of AR-15 rifles on the market with a lot of companies. Thus there is no guarantee for capturing market share. I suspect that the finance guys looked at it and said not profitable. For FN, its no skin off their nose as they already have a large factory in operation for military contracts. I suspect they view civilian sales as gravy on top of the meat. HK has been good to us with their pistols, and tried to be good to us with their rifles until .gov changed the rules to screw them. Thus, I'll continue to be an HK apologist.

Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:15:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 11:19:02 PM EDT by Sigurd]

Originally Posted By MMcCall:
They may have started the plant in anticipation of XM8 orders, but to let it rot while US customers slaver for semi G36s and UMPs is nothing short of gross ignorance.

There is no such thing as a saturated US market for HK weapons. ORF, JLD, Vector and innumerable custom builders prove this EVERY DAY.





THERE IS NO "HK US PLANT". HK bought some land in GA. I've heard that the Arlington HK operation is moving down there, but they have no production capability.

The FN plant in SC was built BECAUSE FN HAD A CONTRACT FROM THE GOV'T to build rifles and machineguns. If they hadn't won those contracts, the plant would never have been built.

I don't know where this fantasy came from that HK has a rifle plant in the US sitting idle that could all of a sudden be used to make civvy market G36s and HK416s if they wanted to, but it's utter nonsense.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:26:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 11:34:24 PM EDT by remedy]
"The full potential of the 5.56mm carbine has now been realized with the introduction of the HK516

What a bunch of bullshit. We've already had gas-piston systems from private and civilian-friendly manufacturers for a while, not to mention a free-floating 4-quadrant rail system is hardly anything incredible and shocking, hell most guys have one on their rifles. So, put the two together and you have an HK416.

Sure, I love and own HK firearms, but they can blow me if they think their LEO/Federal HK416 is top-dawg.

ETA: Anyone know how much it weighs? Couldn't find it in the PDF. Thanks.

- rem



Originally Posted By MP5MachinenPistole:
In short, it will be a very cold day in hell before any-one who is a regular to the AR15.Com webpage has the opportunity to purchase a H&K 416 upper or complete weapon.

I do not even think about it or read about it. What for? Why get my underwear in a knot over something it can never own?

Taker Care…


MP5 Machinenpistole

Link Posted: 11/15/2005 12:05:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sigurd:

Originally Posted By MMcCall:
They may have started the plant in anticipation of XM8 orders, but to let it rot while US customers slaver for semi G36s and UMPs is nothing short of gross ignorance.

There is no such thing as a saturated US market for HK weapons. ORF, JLD, Vector and innumerable custom builders prove this EVERY DAY.





THERE IS NO "HK US PLANT". HK bought some land in GA. I've heard that the Arlington HK operation is moving down there, but they have no production capability.

The FN plant in SC was built BECAUSE FN HAD A CONTRACT FROM THE GOV'T to build rifles and machineguns. If they hadn't won those contracts, the plant would never have been built.

I don't know where this fantasy came from that HK has a rifle plant in the US sitting idle that could all of a sudden be used to make civvy market G36s and HK416s if they wanted to, but it's utter nonsense.



Settle down, I think you're misreading what I said about having "started" the "plant" and not really done anything. I'm well aware of the fact that it's still a mudhole. Whether an actual manufacturing plant is built or not is irrelevant to the point I was making about there being enough demand to justify one.
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 12:32:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hired_Gun:

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By ian187:

I think you are very short sighted and out of line. Over the years HK has made every effort to sell to the American market but has continuously been given a hard time by the State Department.



Even the greenest marketing intern could spend a month or two cruising the forums and talking to gunshop patrons and see the windfall that would be waiting for them with the addition of just one or two product lines.



Well, in this we see the shift of the tides. H&K held the best brand image of any firearms manufacturer for the longest time, just like Benz used to be the best... Is FN going to develop into the new leader of the market? I myself can't wait for the FN2000, need to start saving pennies now!



Dont forget steyr. They are coming out to play too since they also have a plant here in the usa now

www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0593.jpg
www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0477.jpg

why do i have to live in CA? all you luckies, its hard enough already seeng ak's and ar15's. Am i going to have to drool ove AUG's now too?*thinking*Yup.
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 6:57:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKLover_91:

Originally Posted By Hired_Gun:

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By ian187:

I think you are very short sighted and out of line. Over the years HK has made every effort to sell to the American market but has continuously been given a hard time by the State Department.



Even the greenest marketing intern could spend a month or two cruising the forums and talking to gunshop patrons and see the windfall that would be waiting for them with the addition of just one or two product lines.



Well, in this we see the shift of the tides. H&K held the best brand image of any firearms manufacturer for the longest time, just like Benz used to be the best... Is FN going to develop into the new leader of the market? I myself can't wait for the FN2000, need to start saving pennies now!



Dont forget steyr. They are coming out to play too since they also have a plant here in the usa now

www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0593.jpg
www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0477.jpg

why do i have to live in CA? all you luckies, its hard enough already seeng ak's and ar15's. Am i going to have to drool ove AUG's now too?*thinking*Yup.



Well it's not all bad. You could buy one and just keep it at my house. I could shoot it for you to make sure it stays in operating order!
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 6:58:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By Sigurd:

Originally Posted By MMcCall:
They may have started the plant in anticipation of XM8 orders, but to let it rot while US customers slaver for semi G36s and UMPs is nothing short of gross ignorance.

There is no such thing as a saturated US market for HK weapons. ORF, JLD, Vector and innumerable custom builders prove this EVERY DAY.





THERE IS NO "HK US PLANT". HK bought some land in GA. I've heard that the Arlington HK operation is moving down there, but they have no production capability.

The FN plant in SC was built BECAUSE FN HAD A CONTRACT FROM THE GOV'T to build rifles and machineguns. If they hadn't won those contracts, the plant would never have been built.

I don't know where this fantasy came from that HK has a rifle plant in the US sitting idle that could all of a sudden be used to make civvy market G36s and HK416s if they wanted to, but it's utter nonsense.



Settle down, I think you're misreading what I said about having "started" the "plant" and not really done anything. I'm well aware of the fact that it's still a mudhole. Whether an actual manufacturing plant is built or not is irrelevant to the point I was making about there being enough demand to justify one.



I suspect with the apparent demise of the XM8 program, the plant may never be built.
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 7:28:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By ian187:

I think you are very short sighted and out of line. Over the years HK has made every effort to sell to the American market but has continuously been given a hard time by the State Department. They modified their firearms to comply with ever increasing draconian laws and have been rewarded by further legislative restriction. It is to the point that selling to LEO market is no different than selling to the civilian market and that is just a huge pain in the ass for them. It is no surprise they have given up on us, our government has kicked them in the nuts as often as possible.

Look at it this way, HK is one of the largest manufacturers in the world, why should they sell to us when we are telling them we do not want them hear? And before you stand up and scream you do want them, the people who represent you to foreign countries and companies do not. If you want to be pissed and accuse someone of being an elitist then you should point your finger at our government, that is who is keeping HK from selling here.

And just for the record, I am not a very big HK fan. I have my share of them but do not subscribe to them being the best. What I've said can easily be applied to any other manufacturer that is selling on a world level but is ignoring the US civilian market.



Sorry, but I towed the HK apologist line for too long. I readily acknowledge the efforts they've made over the years to comply with our laws, but with the AWB gone for over a year, and other companies like FN stepping up to the plate, they've got no excuse. Even the greenest marketing intern could spend a month or two cruising the forums and talking to gunshop patrons and see the windfall that would be waiting for them with the addition of just one or two product lines.



You're right, any marketing intern could see the demand but once he put the proposal on the CFO's desk he'd get slapped back down to the mail room.

HK would have to build a new manufacturing facility, build or bring all the tooling for the rifles, and fight the US government all at the same time. Mean while, they have to turn a profit with the sales of the G36, 416, and UMP.

I take it all back, you're right, HK is nothing but a bunch of assholes. Shame on them for operating as a business and not putting YOUR needs first.

And just for the record, neither FN nor Steyr has released anything yet so they are currently no better than HK.
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 7:40:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2005 7:41:53 AM EDT by want2race]

Originally Posted By MP5MachinenPistole:
Sunday, November 13, 2005

I have a good friend who is a Class 3 dealer here in Las Vegas who has very close contacts with the military, and he is a H&K Law Enforcement and military armor. and he tells me that while he was there, he was not allowed to talk about or even look at the H&K 416 weapons’ system and the trainer made it clear that the H&K 416 system was a military or Federal Law Enforcement special item only and H&K had no intention of releasing these items for sale to state and local law enforcement and civilians.



Your armorer friend is a Law Enforcement and Military armorer yet they wouldn't talk to him about their military and law enforcement rifles? I call BS. I went a few months ago and they were pimping the shit out of that system. They were freely handing out HK416 spec sheets and posters. What did they do, put a cloak over it when they took him in the "Grey Room"?

I'm not promoting them, or their position on selling to civilians. If he is what you say he is, then HE IS the market they are selling to (LE and Military).
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 7:52:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:

And just for the record, neither FN nor Steyr has released anything yet so they are currently no better than HK.



Not that it makes them better than HK or anyone else, but the FN SCAR-L has been released for gov't evaluation and is currently being field-tested.

Link Posted: 11/15/2005 8:10:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:And just for the record, neither FN nor Steyr has released anything yet so they are currently no better than HK.


I love HK. However, the SCAR has gotten further in six months than the XM8 had gotten in it's whole limited life line.

I don't know about Steyr as there is no proof of their intentions. However, wait until the SHOT show until you pass judgement on FN.

HK was leading edge at one point. That ime is gone IMO.

Link Posted: 11/15/2005 8:32:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hired_Gun:
Dont forget steyr. They are coming out to play too since they also have a plant here in the usa now

www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0593.jpg
www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0477.jpg


Daddy like. Daddy like very much.
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 4:44:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By ian187:

And just for the record, neither FN nor Steyr has released anything yet so they are currently no better than HK.



Not that it makes them better than HK or anyone else, but the FN SCAR-L has been released for gov't evaluation and is currently being field-tested.




I was refering to civilian sales. The SCAR, however, is still not in production either.

As far as I'm concerned SIG, Steyr, HK, and FN are all about the same right now. The acception being that HK sold firearms to the US market in massive quantities which no other EBR manufacturer can say.

Link Posted: 11/15/2005 7:28:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:

You're right, any marketing intern could see the demand but once he put the proposal on the CFO's desk he'd get slapped back down to the mail room.

HK would have to build a new manufacturing facility, build or bring all the tooling for the rifles, and fight the US government all at the same time. Mean while, they have to turn a profit with the sales of the G36, 416, and UMP.

I take it all back, you're right, HK is nothing but a bunch of assholes. Shame on them for operating as a business and not putting YOUR needs first.

And just for the record, neither FN nor Steyr has released anything yet so they are currently no better than HK.




Just out of curiosity, is your last name Heckler or Koch? I never said they were assholes, but I'd tell them to their face that they were disappointing a lot of US shooters. I also think they need to re-assess their place in the US arsenal if a mere gas piston conversion gets them collectively hard.

As for the other manufacturers, I have no idea what Steyr is up to, but at least they have a plant. As for FN, anyone that thinks they're bullshitting us at this point, after the SHOT show announcements, TV demos and reps saying "These WILL be released to the civvy market soon", is flat out ignorant.
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 7:41:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2005 8:59:44 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:

Originally Posted By ian187:And just for the record, neither FN nor Steyr has released anything yet so they are currently no better than HK.


I love HK. However, the SCAR has gotten further in six months than the XM8 had gotten in it's whole limited life line.

I don't know about Steyr as there is no proof of their intentions. However, wait until the SHOT show until you pass judgement on FN.

HK was leading edge at one point. That ime is gone IMO.




HK's future with the U.S. Military is not the XM8. It is the HK45 pistol, HK416, and the HK417. I think they have finally figured this out. Every one of them is a cutting edge design and a good fit for the U.S. Military.
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 7:42:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MMcCall:
As for the other manufacturers, I have no idea what Steyr is up to, but at least they have a plant. As for FN, anyone that thinks they're bullshitting us at this point, after the SHOT show announcements, TV demos and reps saying "These WILL be released to the civvy market soon", is flat out ignorant.



It's never happened before has it?
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 8:01:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By ian187:

You're right, any marketing intern could see the demand but once he put the proposal on the CFO's desk he'd get slapped back down to the mail room.

HK would have to build a new manufacturing facility, build or bring all the tooling for the rifles, and fight the US government all at the same time. Mean while, they have to turn a profit with the sales of the G36, 416, and UMP.

I take it all back, you're right, HK is nothing but a bunch of assholes. Shame on them for operating as a business and not putting YOUR needs first.

And just for the record, neither FN nor Steyr has released anything yet so they are currently no better than HK.




Just out of curiosity, is your last name Heckler or Koch? I never said they were assholes, but I'd tell them to their face that they were disappointing a lot of US shooters. I also think they need to re-assess their place in the US arsenal if a mere gas piston conversion gets them collectively hard.

As for the other manufacturers, I have no idea what Steyr is up to, but at least they have a plant. As for FN, anyone that thinks they're bullshitting us at this point, after the SHOT show announcements, TV demos and reps saying "These WILL be released to the civvy market soon", is flat out ignorant.



That's the ticket, use adhominen when nothing else works.

I was told directly by several SIG reps that the 55X series would be sold to the US civilian market when the AWB dies, where is it?
Steyr has a plant? Don't make me laugh, those guys got evicted out of their plant in Europe and floundered for several years. They have hardly done anything in recent years worth mentioning.
FN has a plant and sells only to .gov, what have you seen from them lately aside from the 57 pistol? They have participated in several government solicitations but as far as you are concerned have not produced anything you could actually buy.

There have been many SHOT show "releases" that simply withered and died on the vine, call me a skeptic but I will not consider them for sale until they are actually for sale.
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 8:15:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By MMcCall:
As for the other manufacturers, I have no idea what Steyr is up to, but at least they have a plant. As for FN, anyone that thinks they're bullshitting us at this point, after the SHOT show announcements, TV demos and reps saying "These WILL be released to the civvy market soon", is flat out ignorant.



It's never happened before has it?



I agree. But I am more optimistic about Steyr since RSR Group has them listed in their catalog, along with the PS90 and FS2000. Time will tell. It's especially exciting that impact guns is selling a Steyr to AR15 mag conversion

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