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Posted: 9/18/2005 3:54:25 PM EDT
Yes, I know they are cheaper to make, that is the only reason I can figure for them. Having found the joys of .gov profile, I will never again own another HBAR, freefloated target rifles excluded.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 3:56:53 PM EDT
I think everyone's realizing that now. I bought into the HBAR hype too, but now all my barrels are A2 profile.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:03:48 PM EDT
Different strokes dude. I'll take the HBAR. Gubmint profile is stupid if you aren't mounting m203s I think.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:06:01 PM EDT
Yeah, the gov't was pretty stupid for going to the heavier barrel profile on the M4.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:11:14 PM EDT
I think HBARs are just fine on carbines, hardly any weight difference and they have some added advantages. On a 20" though, I think I would rather have the govt. profile.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:13:37 PM EDT
They make sense for target or precision guns, but for something you want to carry alot, I'd rather have something skinny.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:16:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Yeah, the gov't was pretty stupid for going to the heavier barrel profile on the M4.



I have signed for 24 new from Colt M4s, they all have the standard profile. I believe only a very limited number of M4A1s are going to a modified H-bar, but all those are going to SOCOM type units.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:19:18 PM EDT
didn't we just had this HBAR vs Gov't profile debate last week
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:30:33 PM EDT


one man's opinion
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:35:28 PM EDT
My next AR is going to be a 20" government profile, but I do have a 14.5" HBAR.

In the 14.5" length, I'm not a fan of the M4 profile, the grenade launcher cutout seems inefficient (unless you really have the launcher) and it's only 1/2 lb more under the handguards.
And a fluted 14.5" HBAR is only 2 tenths of a pound more than the M4 profile, and that's probably what I'd do if I wanted to lighten up my carbine.


Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:36:18 PM EDT
I prefer HBAR carbines, personally. It'll stay accurate for a lot longer, won't burn your hand as quickly, it it really isn't very heavy at all. I can see either side's opinion on 20" rifles, though.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:49:16 PM EDT
I got an HBAR 20", just cause I did not know any different when I bought my Ar. But, I carry it for 4-5 hours at a time while hog hunting and I don't have any problems. Get a good 3 point sling and have fun is the way I see it.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:52:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:


one man's opinion



+1
Whatever works for you.
That's the beauty of the AR.
They can be had in so many configurations.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:04:13 PM EDT
I hate it when people say what Im going to say without a Refference or proof,
But I know I read somewhere that SOCOM was wanting the HBARs for Carbines because of the excess heat buildup in recent firefights and the ability of the Standard carbine profile to hold zero under extreme conditions of prolonged engagements. That may not have been the only reason but Im sure I read it somewhere, AND NO it was not from Gary Paul Johnson.
I am not a Big fan however of Goverment Profile 20" rifles either. I know from experiance there is a noticable shift in zero in Prolonged engagements. I prefer to have Steve at ADCO flute a 20" under the Tube. This does a Number of things including increasing surface area for cooling, stiffens the barrel to reduce warpage, and lighens to close enough to the same weight as a Givenment profile. Or at least my issue Colt M16A4 is damn close to my ADCO DMR, WHhixh I just decided to keep.
Just my $.02
chuck
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:19:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 5:20:40 PM EDT by boltcatch]

I hate it when people say what Im going to say without a Refference or proof,
But I know I read somewhere that SOCOM was wanting the HBARs for Carbines because of the excess heat buildup in recent firefights and the blah blah fishpaste



Those are the barrels STLRN was referring to above. They come up for sale here and there, so we know what you're talking about.

I think HBARs are fine for precision weapons, and medium contour barrels are a nice idea if you're free floating a carbine. But for a regular rifle you're going to be carrying, that isn't free floated, and that you're using with irons or a red dot, a gov't profile barrel is a really nice thing to have. You don't need an HBAR to shoot minute of badguy to 300m, so there's not much point carrying around all that extra weight.

Bottom line, I think that just like the chrome vs. non-chrome issue, many people who got an HBAR previously when they were more common either didn't know or were too lazy to get anything else and now don't want to get new barrels, and many people who have yet to buy their AR's and needlessly buy HBARs either don't know the difference or are too lazy to take the extra 5 minutes to get a gov't or light profile.

Look at the nice new uppers Bravo Co. is coming out with. Cost isn't an excuse anymore for the consumer.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:28:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By boltcatch:
But for a regular rifle you're going to be carrying, that isn't free floated, and that you're using with irons or a red dot, a gov't profile barrel is a really nice thing to have. You don't need an HBAR to shoot minute of badguy to 300m, so there's not much point carrying around all that extra weight.



+1 well said, This is true, for standard issue weapons, weight is a huge factor.
cp
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:39:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 5:39:54 PM EDT by fq1234]
I had a few HBARs, both carbine and rifle. They are ALL gone now. I love the light profile. If I was shooting a lot of FA or worried about bending my barrel while using my bayonet then maybe I'd go and get an HBAR.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:39:52 PM EDT
Does anyone know the weight difference between the two?
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:43:45 PM EDT
My first AR was a 20" HBAR loved it, it is a little heavy but a good sling makes up for it. I would not change it now it was my first, I can just buy others to make up for the weight in that one.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:52:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 5:53:19 PM EDT by TheBushman]
Would anybody be willing to tell me (AR newb) the differences of the Hbar and gov't profile barrels?
I think I have an idea, but I just want to be sure because I'm still in the market for my
first AR and would like to know about what I'm getting into.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:01:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheBushman:
Would anybody be willing to tell me (AR newb) the differences of the Hbar and gov't profile barrels?
I think I have an idea, but I just want to be sure because I'm still in the market for my
first AR and would like to know about what I'm getting into.



HBAR



Gov't profile

Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:02:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:04:15 PM EDT
Anybody know how the HBAR barrels and the RECCE barrels are similar or different?
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:06:21 PM EDT
When I got my first AR, I thought A2 profile WAS the HBAR. And no one told me any different, as when I went shopping, I saw rifles marked "A2" and they all had the HBAR. So I got a 20 inch heavy.

The first time I held an A1-type rifle, I was shocked at how light and well balanced it was. I eventually got a slabside SP-1 mixmaster.

Of course, the AR addiction being what it is, I wasn't done there. I became obsessed with the true A2 Government Profile barrels and the fact that not one gun shop I went to, nor many AR manufacturers themselves, even offer it! I found that Bushy does sell them so I got an upper with A2 sights and a Government barrel. In many ways, this rifle is perfect; lighter and more balanced than my 20 inch HBAR but easier to shoot than my shorty and I know that extra velocity is there too.

But even after 50 or 60 rounds, fired in less than an hour, I notice a very slight opening up on the target that isn't there with my HBAR.

I guess the bottom line is, if I could only have one AR15, for target shooting, home defense, SHTF and everything, it would be my Gov. Profile. But thank goodness I can own more than one because my 20-inch HBAR is the most accurate rifle I've ever owned.

I recently had the honor of advising a buddy in getting his very first AR. I thought long and hard about all the variations I could fill his head with. I finally decided all these choices would confuse him this early on. So, I urged him to go with a 20-inch and since HBARs were all they had at the gunshop, that's what he got. I figure once he gets to know that rifle, and sees how well he can shoot it, I can introduce him to my A1 and Gov. Profile rifles and see what he thinks.

Enjoy your rifles, whatever "flavors" they are!
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:12:06 PM EDT
The difference between a 20-inch HBAR and a 20-inch Gov. Profile is ONE POUND.

I believe the difference between a 14.5 inch HBAR and 14.5 inch light barrel is half a pound- less length, less metal.

That's not much when it's in your hand but it is noticable when it's hanging off the front end of your rifle. To put it another way, my fully loaded (30 round mag) Gov. Profile rifle weighs the same as an unloaded HBAR.



Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:22:59 PM EDT
Gimme the ol' A1 any day!!!
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:26:59 PM EDT
You apparently do not shoot in any competition. Precision shooters that regularly shoot at 300, 500, & 600yds with the AR-15 A2 HBAR with the issue peep sights. The slightly heavier( about 1lb.) barrel makes a big difference in helping steadying the weapon and is generally more accurate, dampening vibrations. My HBAR has proven to me that the extra wieght was worth it. In 1995 at a CMP match in IL
my HBAR outshot 92 other competitors winning me first place. It has done that several other times befor and since.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:27:20 PM EDT
I like the HBAR.

I have both gov't profile 1/7, which will shift zero after prolonged firing; and the HBAR which does not, at least in any significant way.

The extra weight does not bother me, since I also have FALs, which are a lot heavier. I suspect the HBAR is probably less prone to barrel whip.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:43:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:
You apparently do not shoot in any competition. Precision shooters that regularly shoot at 300, 500, & 600yds with the AR-15 A2 HBAR with the issue peep sights. The slightly heavier( about 1lb.) barrel makes a big difference in helping steadying the weapon and is generally more accurate, dampening vibrations. My HBAR has proven to me that the extra wieght was worth it. In 1995 at a CMP match in IL
my HBAR outshot 92 other competitors winning me first place. It has done that several other times befor and since.




I don't doubt it, but there are plenty of people here who are uninterested in competition shooting.

There are pros and cons of each, and it is up to the individual to decide what works best for them. There are enough people being issued weapons and getting no choice, that those of us who aren't should be thankful for the options we have.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:47:57 PM EDT
10-15 years ago HBAR's were very popular and and the govt profile was considered less desirable.

...funny how times change.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 7:00:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 7:01:07 PM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]
I don't care what's popular. What is this, High School?

I have 1 HBAR because it was a complete RRA upper and they don't have a LW option.

My other 3 are Gov't profile(A2 20", M4 16", Mid 16"). I like that they swing from side to side much better.

Competition is one thing, but I don't compete with my rifles. I have fun.

Besides, your average 20" A2 HBAR balances WAY too forward, IMO. 20" Gov't profile is almost perfect.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 7:25:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 7:25:59 PM EDT by dmk0210]
IMO, all casual use ARs should have A1/SP1 profile barrels. I think the Govt. profile is stupid. Why turn it down in the middle then leave that fat barrel section out on the end? That can't be good for the harmonics of the barrel.

However, I do have a couple govt. profiles because it was a cost effective way to save weight and they don't make 20" or midlength 16" A1/SP1 profile barrels with 1/9 or 1/7 twist(if they do, they are very rare).

I also have a free floated HBAR midlength carbine. I wouldn't want to haul it around all day, but it's very accurate.



Link Posted: 9/18/2005 7:34:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 7:48:56 PM EDT
"Pencil" thickness or superlight barrels for 16" rifles, as well as real M4 profile M4's and Govt profile 20" barrels are SUPERIOR to Hbars.


Hbars are totally bullshit. Of course, the useless-extra-weight apologists will always point to the special SOCOM barrels on M4's that are slightly thicker. These are "carbines" being used like SAW's by special forces.


No one on this site (unless they own full auto) will blow or melt a govt/pencil barrel.


The consumer market is slowly turning around and moving towards the proper barrel profile. This is because the market has grown tremendously, and there are more choices out there. Hbars are a creation of the commercial manufacturing sector to save machining costs. The demand for these will evaporate as people start getting clued into the real profile barrels.


Link Posted: 9/18/2005 7:51:31 PM EDT
HBAR all the way. The little extra weight adds muzzle control while aiming. I have even added lead to other rifles forearms (non-AR) to add that little extra weight to steady the muzzle.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 8:17:29 PM EDT
Someone wants H-Bar, more power to them. I dont like them, but thats MY money Im spending.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 4:29:24 AM EDT
the weight of my HBAR remind me I have a real gun and not an Airsoft one
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 5:03:20 AM EDT
build some muscle and you wont notice the difference
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 5:26:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Frens:
the weight of my HBAR remind me I have a real gun and not an Airsoft one



Hope you don't apply the philosophy to your women
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 5:59:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Duffy:

Originally Posted By Frens:
the weight of my HBAR remind me I have a real gun and not an Airsoft one



Hope you don't apply the philosophy to your women







dont worry...only with guns

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:02:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 6:14:40 AM EDT by CaptSchofield]

Originally Posted By dmk0210:
IMO, all casual use ARs should have A1/SP1 profile barrels. I think the Govt. profile is stupid. Why turn it down in the middle then leave that fat barrel section out on the end? That can't be good for the harmonics of the barrel.

However, I do have a couple govt. profiles because it was a cost effective way to save weight and they don't make 20" or midlength 16" A1/SP1 profile barrels with 1/9 or 1/7 twist(if they do, they are very rare).

I also have a free floated HBAR midlength carbine. I wouldn't want to haul it around all day, but it's very accurate.




The heavy front end was so that "grunts' using thier bayonets mounted on thier rifles would not bend the barrels while using them to open ammo crates and other supplies in the heat of battle. this as a common problem in Vietmam. This was covered in posts just a few months ago. You will not bend a heavy profile barrel no matter how you try.

And please don't think that I think that the HBAR is the only choice for everyone. My next 6.8SPC is going to have a govt. profile even if I have to turn it down myself.
a true arfcommer has one or more of each!!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:05:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By steve0:
Does anyone know the weight difference between the two?



You'd think there's an 87 pound difference the way these fat bodies are carrying on and crying!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:07:46 AM EDT
I love my 2 Colt green label HBAR's, they're a dream to shoot
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:12:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Frens:

Originally Posted By Duffy:

Originally Posted By Frens:
the weight of my HBAR remind me I have a real gun and not an Airsoft one



Hope you don't apply the philosophy to your women



www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/smiles/icon_rofl.gif



dont worry...only with guns


hey, some guys prefer their women 20% heavier!!

Not me though, I like mine 10% lighter so you don't suffocate when having your pie!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:26:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:39:56 AM EDT
--HBARs are just fine on carbines--
I personal do not like the thin Gov profile barrels
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:43:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:

Originally Posted By Frens:

Originally Posted By Duffy:

Originally Posted By Frens:
the weight of my HBAR remind me I have a real gun and not an Airsoft one



Hope you don't apply the philosophy to your women



www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/smiles/icon_rofl.gif



dont worry...only with guns


hey, some guys prefer their women 20% heavier!!

Not me though, I like mine 10% lighter so you don't suffocate when having your pie!



Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:45:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:
"Pencil" thickness or superlight barrels for 16" rifles, as well as real M4 profile M4's and Govt profile 20" barrels are SUPERIOR to Hbars.


Hbars are totally bullshit. Of course, the useless-extra-weight apologists will always point to the special SOCOM barrels on M4's that are slightly thicker. These are "carbines" being used like SAW's by special forces.


No one on this site (unless they own full auto) will blow or melt a govt/pencil barrel.


The consumer market is slowly turning around and moving towards the proper barrel profile. This is because the market has grown tremendously, and there are more choices out there. Hbars are a creation of the commercial manufacturing sector to save machining costs. The demand for these will evaporate as people start getting clued into the real profile barrels.




1st time hearing that.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:00:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:
You apparently do not shoot in any competition. Precision shooters that regularly shoot at 300, 500, & 600yds with the AR-15 A2 HBAR with the issue peep sights. The slightly heavier( about 1lb.) barrel makes a big difference in helping steadying the weapon and is generally more accurate, dampening vibrations. My HBAR has proven to me that the extra wieght was worth it. In 1995 at a CMP match in IL
my HBAR outshot 92 other competitors winning me first place. It has done that several other times befor and since.



No offense Capt, cause I am sure that the gun is quite accurate, but I am SURE that YOU had something to do with it also

Heck, I could shoot for years and never beat 20 people at a match, much less 92. Good job!

Doc
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:26:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 9:29:41 AM EDT by CaptSchofield]
Was'nt trying to brag on myself, just trying to point out the the HBAR can make a difference in accuracy. If acurracy is not imporatnt then we might as well be shooting AK's. And as I stated before the Govt. profile is usefull and my next build will be one. But to say that HBAR's are stupid is, well, STUPID!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:45:08 AM EDT

You apparently do not shoot in any competition. Precision shooters that regularly shoot at 300, 500, & 600yds with the AR-15 A2 HBAR with the issue peep sights. The slightly heavier( about 1lb.) barrel makes a big difference in helping steadying the weapon and is generally more accurate, dampening vibrations. My HBAR has proven to me that the extra wieght was worth it. In 1995 at a CMP match in IL
my HBAR outshot 92 other competitors winning me first place. It has done that several other times befor and since.



Absolutely. I'd recommend an HBAR for anyone looking to do CMP style shooting, or (as I said before) anyone putting glass on it or making a precision rifle.

As a basic weapon though, using the rounds most of us shoot (55gr ball), if you're planning to make 300 to 600 yard shots, you probably brought the wrong tool for the job.

It's always funny when friends who own HBARs -- who don't shoot well enough to see any difference, and who don't shoot in competitions -- heft my A2. It's sort of a "WTF!" kind of moment.

IIRC, a 16" HBAR is a little heavier than a 20" gov't profile.
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