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Posted: 9/12/2004 9:48:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2004 9:50:34 PM EST by Unknown1Sailor]
Since this involves so many different types of gear, I thought I'd try this here first. I didn't clean either rifle, for the most part. I took a chamber brush to the chamber, and that's about it.

Equipment Brought:

Rifles (at class start):

Primary

  • Bushmaster Dissipator A3 upper w/fluted barrel

  • ARMS SIR #59m

  • ARMS #40 BUIS

  • ARMS #22M68 Aimpoint mount

  • Aimpoint Comp ML2

  • Dieter CQD vertical foregrip

  • A2 fixed stock

  • YHM single point sling mount

  • Troy single point sling


Secondary

  • Bushmaster XM-15 E2S (flat top)

  • YHM 2 piece carbine length rail

  • YHM rear BUIS

  • LaRue EOTech mount

  • EOTech 552 holosight

  • A2 fixed stock

  • YHM single pint sling mount

  • Troy single point sling

  • Tango Down foregrip (purchased from pro shop after rifle switch)


Equipment:

  • CQB solutions drop leg mag pouches (both 2 and 4 mag versions).

  • Surefire 962 throw lever weapon light.

  • LaBelle USGI 30 round magazines (16 ea.)

  • LaRue Aimpoint mount (empty and not mounted to anything at class start).

  • Dillon electronic ears (purchased at pro shop on day 1).


Ammo:
Winchester 3131A and PMC 55 grain mix.

223 Personal Lessons learned:

  • #59 SIR/dissy combination was no good – too heavy (NOTE: was functionally OK, just too heavy to hold up at Ready for more than 20 seconds). Switched to secondary rifle, used it for rest of class.

  • I stopped using my EOTech after only other one in class went down without explanation. Switched to Aimpoint from primary rifle in LaRue mount. My EOTech still functions, but not trustworthy.

  • LUBE YOUR RIFLE!

  • Aimpoint is combat accurate out to 300 meters. (4 MOA dot) Hits on steel were no issue, when I did my part.

  • Fill the trigger guard gap. Your strong side “social” (middle) finger will appreciate it.

  • A lightweight rifle is good.

  • Electronic ears save time and aggravation while on line.

  • Check fasteners often. Use Locktite.

  • YHM rail accepted the Tango Down foregrip without issues. Was solid throughout class.

  • 2 mag leg pouch not enough “on person” ammo for class. Only used 4 mag pouch. Concept worked for me, though. 2 mag pouch should be good for non-school uses (think 3 gun matches).

  • Never used either BUIS, not even to confirm zeros.

  • The Troy sling was nice. To “unsling” from the rifle, all I had to do was unclip the sling. The pad helped during the times the rifle was hanging from the sling. My neck appreciated it.

  • I had no issues with the A2 length stock. Caveat: I am big, with long arms. Were I to wear body armor on a regular basis, I’m sure I would go with a shorter/collapsible stock.


Observed:

  • 2nd generation H&K Steel magazines had issues feeding in positions other than vertical.

  • BlackHawk 782 gear sucks. Eagle isn’t much better.

  • “Match” triggers are too fragile. (The sole class example lasted ONE SHOT!)

  • Red dot sight out on railed forend is not viable in every conceivable shooting position (think supine, urban prone), and adds weight out on the front of the rifle.

  • Had one ACOG Reflex sight user. Functionally OK, but the large dot was a hindrance on the long shots.

  • Bring 15 or more magazines, and have a small bag to carry them in. This saves stuffing magazines during the day, and the bag saves running back and forth to the car during the day.

  • While 250 is not required, the experience of working with your pistol is a big plus. (Presentations, tac loads, etc.)

  • Lake City “big fireball” syndrome is confirmed (like it needed to be, but I’d never seen a ball of fire that big before, so I took note of it).

  • Solo house clearing with a pistol sucks, but it’s worse with a carbine.

  • Class used KAC RAS or RAS II/LaRue railed forends, with my YHM/SIR and one other one (Surefire?) the oddballs. One student used the stock handguards. Who also happened to win the shoot-off.

  • Pat Rogers is a great storyteller, and has a joke for every occasion (dare I say inexhaustible supply?). Oh, and an excellent instructor, to boot.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 5:00:07 AM EST
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:48:51 AM EST
Excellent report!

Would you say these types of classes are civilian friendly? Or are they primarily geared toward battle-hardened military and law enforcement personnel only?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:40:01 AM EST


Thanks for the report! well written.

What was your background or class experience before this one if you dont mind me asking?

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:44:04 AM EST
223 is a "meet and greet your carbine" class, i.e. this is what it can and cannot do. There were military in my particular class (no LE, oddly enough), but it isn't restricted to military only. Gunsite doesn't have any courses restricted to LE/military only, as far as I know. This class is like the 250 for carbines.

For example, we had 11 total students. 3 were Tango Down guys there to experience first hand using a carbine, 2 were New Mexico National Guard, me representing Navy (on vacation), one was a cardiologist. We had a good mix in class.

I took this to: 1) wring out my gear and 2) get some much needed training.

This was my experience; YMMV, obviously.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:46:08 AM EST
Skiandshoot: I have taken 250 and one Thunder Ranch course prior to this, both of which were pistol oriented. I have shot rifles for years, but never had any schooling on it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:46:29 AM EST
I'm borrowing your observations for the Ohio Team Forum, as we are looking to take a class together next summer.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:12:00 AM EST
Great post! Thanks for the info!
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:15:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vinh:
Excellent report!

Would you say these types of classes are civilian friendly? Or are they primarily geared toward battle-hardened military and law enforcement personnel only?



I have not taken any Gunsite courses, but have had Pat as my instructor for 2 other courses, so take this for what its worth and what you paid for it :

1. Any course Pat teaches is not a course designed to improve your IPSC score. Its about killing Mother Fuckers. If hearing the word Fuck makes you Non Mission Capable to shoot paper then you are not going to be able to drop the hammer on the Meth Head Scooter trash that is analy raping your daughter. Either grow a thick skin or dont come. I dont care if your a Christian, a Lady or whoever, there is a big evil world out there and "Fuck" is the least of your worries when you have to use a gun to save your life.

2. Be in shape. The course should not be the first time that you spend all day in your gear. If you cant run 25 yards then there is no reason to attend.

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:26:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 8:26:32 AM EST by Unknown1Sailor]
Agreed. And don't be afraid to admit you were awarded a "giant Moose Cock" award.

I got one. Forgot to do a tac load on my pistol while doing transitions.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:42:32 AM EST
Excellent post. I'm surprised you took of the EOTech, you should have run it to see if it died.

BTW do you know the model of the EOTech that died? How about the battery is used (N or AA)?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:47:01 AM EST
It was a 552. Unknown if it was Revision F.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 4:18:35 PM EST
Thanks for taking the time to post your experiences.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 5:08:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Unknown1Sailor:
Agreed. And don't be afraid to admit you were awarded a "giant Moose Cock" award.

I got one. Forgot to do a tac load on my pistol while doing transitions.




The dreaded "giant Moose Cock"! lmfao. Pat is the muthafucking man.

And a big +1 to everything PSYWAR said. And a Fuck fuck fuck Fuckity Fuck to Pat and all the guys...
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 5:38:50 PM EST

And a big +1 to everything PSYWAR said. And a Fuck fuck fuck Fuckity Fuck to Pat and all the guys...


Stop... I'm gettin all Misty...
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 5:48:08 PM EST
Damn good post! I took Urban Rifle at T/R and have since built a Ultralight bushie. Folks don't believe how heavy they get holding at the ready when you have been drilling all day. I would add, if I might, Pack your ammo on GI strippers and bring several chargers, Mark all your mags for ID, during some drills, there were dropped mags lying everywhere and its good to know your own! I took 30 mags to T/R and did not feel it was too many, I had all GI of about every manufacture, most were used 30's with green followers and never had a mag induced failure. Dead on on lubrication and using a "gapper" or duckbill type pistol grip, Clint warned us and it was true, lots of tape/bandaids by the end of the day. Have a good removable light. Like you found out, you sure see what breaks and what works and you won't get shot in the process. When in doubt, apply the KISS principle on extraneous gear and toys. I have been on the fence between the Aimpoint and the EOtech, I appreciate your feedback , it will help me make my decision! Again, Good Post!
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:16:08 PM EST
Pat is a great instructor. I took one of his 3 day carbine classes in Boone Co. Indiana this year.

While the reference to the dreaded "F" word is true, I don't want anyone who has never taken a Pat Rogers course to think he's a hard core Full Metal Jacket marine drill instructor type. He's a very easygoing guy with a sense of humor that could give any comedian a run for the money. His teaching style makes you want to do it right out of pride. Even when he's calling you out in front of the class he does it with a sense of humor and style. I got the dreaded Moose Cock award. It was during a transition to pistol drill where you fire one rifle round(with no mag inserted to simulate a FTF), transition to pistol and fire 2 standing and 2 kneeling. Well I fired my single rifle round and dropped to kneeling to fire all 4 pistol rds. There was Pat standing behind me giving me the "award". I was cracking up and all I could say was "yes Pat". I got a picture of it and it's my desktop wallpaper as a reminder to "think" not just react in a pre-programed matter. We all learned very quickly not to screw the pooch on a drill so we wouldn't be called out. But I think we all laughed each time some one did. And we remembered not to do what "he" just did.

At our class we had guys from every walk of life. Many past and present Mil guys. 3 or 4 cops (myself being one of them), a security contractor of some sort I think, a guy from Crane weapons reasearch, about 4 or 5 surgeons, a family of 3 which included Father, Son, and librarian daughter.

People in the class wore a variety of gear. I was one of the lightest packed there with:
16" BM LEO flat top HB OKO red dot
16" BM A1 fluted with AK brake
12 30 rounders
Nylon duty belt with holster, mace pouch, cuff pouch, flashlight, QCB solutions drop legg double AR mag pouch, and double pistol mag pouch. I also stuffed 3-5 AR mags in various BDU pockets.

A lighter rifle is a benefit. I used my Fluted bbl AR half the class. I almost prefered this rifle due to weight alone. I've got sissy arms.

All ammo loaded on stripper clips and a good mag loader. I think this is the biggest must have for a class. "It pays to be a winner" If you can keep all your mags loaded fast you have more time to gulp water, rest, fiddle with equip, meet others, listen to stories, and be ready to jump in an empty spot on the line for a second try at a drill.

Other must haves, 2 working rifles. An expensive class sucks if something breaks. There are ussually alot of extra rifles but it's good to have one you feel comfortable with. Good ammo that you have tested. One guy had some greek ammo that was believed to be a problem. He lost a lot of time during drills. One or two guys ran Wolf the whole class without problem, very weird. You'll also need a way to carry at least one rifle reload. Everything else is extra.

Other guys wore full combat loads with packs. Those guys are hard core. I wear guessing about 20-25 pounds of police gear 40+ hours a week and am a 6'1 165 pound guy, very tall and skinny. I was dragging ass by lunch every day in the 90 degree heat. Those guys are hard core. The rest fell everywhere in between.

Some of the biggest lessons learned:
1. Train with the gear you plan on fighting with. I have way more gear than I can possibly carry realistically. I either need to do more PT or carry less. Since I'm not carrying as much as I want I've decided to work out. I hate excercise.

2. Have trust in your equipment. Make sure it works. My OKO red dot sight gave me some problems before ever getting to training. I replaced it temporarily with a friends OKO and had to make a feild expedient zero. That sucked. OKO's have no click adjustment so guesswork is how it's adjusted. I fiddled with it all 3 days. Class is no time to dink with equipment that isn't user friendly. Real life is even worse. I'm ditching it for an Aimpoint in a Larue mount. Other people had slight zero corrections with aimpoints that Pat could give the adjustmensts from eyeing the target. No such luck for me. My buddy was running an OKO as well and had zero problems with it. Lock-Tite is your friend. Make sure you have good mounts. The best scope in the world is useless on a loose base.

3. The moose cock award was great cause it made me realize that you can't think\do a certain thing the same everytime. Sometimes muscle memory can be bad. I was always trained to find cover, fight my way to cover, or get as small\low as possible ASAP. Even though I was told to work my way to kneeling I reacted how I would probably always react. I let past training overide my actions. Not always good. The standard response isn't always the best.

4. I hate shooting prone with an AR. All of the other variations of prone I like though. I need to practice them all. SBU, supine, and urban were all very cool.

5. If anything goes wrong with the rifle, be ready to transistion. All my past training has been with handgun only so my normal reaction is to clear a malf. as quickly as possible. If it's broke its next to useless until you have time\cover to fix it. Keep Fighting.

On the last day of class I told Pat that if I had the money I'd be willing to pay him tuition fees just to hear him tell all his stories. The class was so much more than just instruction.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 9:32:16 PM EST
We got to do a lot of shooting. 11 students on a 12 slot range equals no relay swapping.

There were two classes running at the same time, and the other class had mostly iron sights without much in the way of customized rifle gear. Heck, a guy was going through the class with a SOCOM M-1A.

And I thought my rifle was heavy.....

Everyone in my 223 had optics of some kind. 90% Aimpoint by Wednesday. The two New Mexico guard members had ACOGs on carry handle mounts, with Surefire M500s. They couldn't reconfigure their rifles, since they weren't theirs, but I'm sure they would have if they could. I forgot about their gear because they had to leave early on Friday.

I got lucky with my moose cock award. Pat actually printed up certificates for two other award recipients, and handed them out with the class certificates. Tango Down went 2 for three.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 9:44:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:00:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 10:00:52 PM EST by SULACO2]

Originally Posted By Unknown1Sailor:

  • Pat Rogers is a great storyteller, and has a joke for every occasion (dare I say inexhaustible supply?). Oh, and an excellent instructor, to boot.




  • Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:
    [1. Any course Pat teaches is not a course designed to improve your IPSC score. Its about killing Mother Fuckers. If hearing the word Fuck makes you Non Mission Capable to shoot paper then you are not going to be able to drop the hammer on the Meth Head Scooter trash that is analy raping your daughter. Either grow a thick skin or dont come. I dont care if your a Christian, a Lady or whoever, there is a big evil world out there and "Fuck" is the least of your worries when you have to use a gun to save your life.





    Originally Posted By Unknown1Sailor:
    Agreed. And don't be afraid to admit you were awarded a "giant Moose Cock" award.

    I got one. Forgot to do a tac load on my pistol while doing transitions.




    Originally Posted By mcsd2598:
    Pat is a great instructor. I took one of his 3 day carbine classes in Boone Co. Indiana this year.

    While the reference to the dreaded "F" word is true, I don't want anyone who has never taken a Pat Rogers course to think he's a hard core Full Metal Jacket marine drill instructor type. He's a very easygoing guy with a sense of humor that could give any comedian a run for the money. His teaching style makes you want to do it right out of pride. Even when he's calling you out in front of the class he does it with a sense of humor and style. I got the dreaded Moose Cock award. It was during a transition to pistol drill where you fire one rifle round(with no mag inserted to simulate a FTF), transition to pistol and fire 2 standing and 2 kneeling. Well I fired my single rifle round and dropped to kneeling to fire all 4 pistol rds. There was Pat standing behind me giving me the "award". I was cracking up and all I could say was "yes Pat". I got a picture of it and it's my desktop wallpaper as a reminder to "think" not just react in a pre-programed matter. We all learned very quickly not to screw the pooch on a drill so we wouldn't be called out. But I think we all laughed each time some one did. And we remembered not to do what "he" just did.



    ...USMC/NYPD...

    /S2
    Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:29:40 PM EST
    Great info guys. Hoping to do the Boone county class next year. Appreciate hearing the stories.
    Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:34:24 PM EST
    [Last Edit: 9/13/2004 11:41:11 PM EST by AR15fan]
    Thank you for posting. I have some questions.

    Did you witness any other parts failures? If so, what?

    Were all the rifles reliable, or did some have problems?

    BTW; my Eotecs go through N bateries like shit through a goose. But my Aimpoint Comp M, one of the first imported many years ago, is still on it's first battery. Eotechs are fun, but they are on my plinking rifles only.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 3:31:52 AM EST
    Forgot to ask, did you encounter any problems transporting your firearms and ammunition to the training facility?
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 3:37:14 AM EST
    [Last Edit: 9/14/2004 3:40:43 AM EST by M4Guru]

    I stopped using my EOTech after only other one in class went down without explanation. Switched to Aimpoint from primary rifle in LaRue mount. My EOTech still functions, but not trustworthy


    If we went by this concept, there wouldn't be a reliable optic in the world. I've seen all the big ones break...Aimpoint, Trijicon, Leupold, and EOTech.


    BTW; my Eotecs go through N bateries like shit through a goose. But my Aimpoint Comp M, one of the first imported many years ago, is still on it's first battery. Eotechs are fun, but they are on my plinking rifles only.


    The new generation of them isn't as bad as the older ones. My Rev F is noticeably better than my old Rev D 551. If they're just for plinking rifles, why does almost every CAG guy use them every day? They even mount them on their M2's on the Pinzgauers!

    I'd like to make it out to one of their classes, it sounds like a lot of fun.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 5:05:00 AM EST
    The only parts failure was the aftermarket trigger. We did get some malfunctions, but those were either user induced, or lack of lube. That's why I put LUBE YOUR RIFLE in there. Shooting the AR system without adequate lube usually doesn't work too well, especially in a dusty environment like Gunsite.

    We had most of the major makes represented. Colt, RRA, Bushmaster. All ran without a hitch, no broken parts.

    As for transportation, I drove down, so obviously I didn't have any issues. Next time, I will fly, and ship my rifles seperately. That was one long drive.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 6:01:46 AM EST
    [Last Edit: 9/14/2004 6:08:23 AM EST by QuietShootr]

    Originally Posted By mcsd2598:


    Other must haves, 2 working rifles. An expensive class sucks if something breaks. There are ussually alot of extra rifles but it's good to have one you feel comfortable with. Good ammo that you have tested. One guy had some greek ammo that was believed to be a problem. He lost a lot of time during drills. One or two guys ran Wolf the whole class without problem, very weird. You'll also need a way to carry at least one rifle reload. Everything else is extra.





    Were you in my class? Edit - yeah, you were...lol.. I have your Moose Cock Award pic too


    Other guys wore full combat loads with packs. Those guys are hard core. I wear guessing about 20-25 pounds of police gear 40+ hours a week and am a 6'1 165 pound guy, very tall and skinny. I was dragging ass by lunch every day in the 90 degree heat. Those guys are hard core.


    As one of those guys, I dragged too, bro..lol... I had a Wal-mart Economy size bottle of ibuprofen (or as Pat called it, "Vitamin I" in my ruck

    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 6:25:37 AM EST

    Originally Posted By Unknown1Sailor:
    We got to do a lot of shooting. 11 students on a 12 slot range equals no relay swapping.

    There were two classes running at the same time, and the other class had mostly iron sights without much in the way of customized rifle gear. Heck, a guy was going through the class with a SOCOM M-1A.

    And I thought my rifle was heavy.....

    Everyone in my 223 had optics of some kind. 90% Aimpoint by Wednesday. The two New Mexico guard members had ACOGs on carry handle mounts, with Surefire M500s. They couldn't reconfigure their rifles, since they weren't theirs, but I'm sure they would have if they could. I forgot about their gear because they had to leave early on Friday.

    I got lucky with my moose cock award. Pat actually printed up certificates for two other award recipients, and handed them out with the class certificates. Tango Down went 2 for three.




    I was in the other group. Larry Landers was the other instructor, and he was pretty good. However, the facilities are damn awesome, and really facilitate learning.

    I was standing next to the guy with the SOCOM all week. It performed better than I expected. The noise was not bad, and I only got branded by his brass when we were shooting from prone. His Bushmaster with Olympic parts went down on the first day and he used his SOCOM for the rest of the class. The 2.5 magnification scout scope, lack of drop free mags, and lack of capacity in the mags slowed him down at close range, but at 100 yards and out the rifle performed well.


    I think there were 4-5 aimpoints in our group (I have one) and they performed awesomely. Only problems I had were when my aimpoint came loose and my zero kept drifting (solved first day) and in the night shoot, when I had the dot brightness set low and the my surefire light washed out the dot when I illuminated the target (lesson learned).

    We had 3 marines from Yuma in our group. Damn they could shoot well at 100 to 200 yards with iron sights. However they could not keep up with the aimpoints from 100 yards in.

    There were two knock off brand optics in our group, and they sucked rocks. Nothing but complaints about them as far as I could tell. There were no Eotech's so I have no judgement for or against them.

    I had a franken-Bushmaster, M4gery upper with KKF A3 muzzle brake and a bushmaster lower (upper and lower were purchased 7 years apart), with factory parts. It performed very well except that I had 4 double fires (nothing like a 200 yard hammer).

    I had 13 30 round magazines and 4 20 round USGI magazines (rebuilt using FALARAK's instructions in the magazine forum) and they performed very well (I highly reccomend against wolffe extra power springs, just get the normal power). On monday and Wednesday I came back with more than one magazine full of amunition, other than that they were all mostly empty by the end of the day (It was a bad idea to let a magazine run dry).

    LULA is highly reccomended.

    I highly reccommend a blade tech mag carrier and a dump pouch. I rocked on el presidente with an aimpoint and mag carrier.

    Also I reccomend a shorter stock than an A2. The gun gets really long when you put a daniels defense single point sling attachment in there.

    And yes, Lake City creates a BIG flash. Double taps at twilight were bang...... wait a second or two for eyesight to come back...... bang.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 8:40:46 AM EST
    Unknown1Sailor,

    Would you mind discussing what the different sling setups were (i.e. single point), the various brands and what sort of success/failure people had with them?

    Thanks.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 8:48:31 AM EST

    Originally Posted By ddc:
    Unknown1Sailor,

    Would you mind discussing what the different sling setups were (i.e. single point), the various brands and what sort of success/failure people had with them?

    Thanks.



    In our group, there were 3 single point slings (1 was mine), and the other 8 were basically the USGI slings. Transitions were not emphasized enough in our group for it to be a factor.

    I am also curious as to what Unknown1Sailor has to say about slings in his group.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 8:52:22 AM EST


    Threads like these make the $20 spent on memership worth every penny.

    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 8:56:29 AM EST
    The single point slings I saw in use were Wilderness single point slings. Usually on a GG&G sling plate. Three users has 2 point slings, with one using the Giles. Me using the Troy sling, I think I was the only oddball. I had a Wilderness sling with me, along with a GG&G sling plate, but for me, that setup blocks access to the charging handle. That's why I went with the H&K style setup. More room for my fat fingers to clear malfunctions.

    The only issues I saw were people having them to loose, allowing the rifle to hang down too far. Also, walking around with the rifle slung, we all seemed to have to hold the rifle with one hand, lest the bounce around while walking.

    They worked great for transitions, obviously.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 9:00:01 AM EST
    thanks for the info!

    carry on!
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 9:29:55 AM EST
    [Last Edit: 9/14/2004 9:33:26 AM EST by Rockdoc]

    Great post Unknown1Sailor, I will get my take on the Gunsite 223 class later this week. This post only addresses the reddot sights.


    I was the one with the tits up Eotech 552 but in defence of the sight it was a battery issue. I had forgotten to replace the alkalines with Lithium AA's. Once that was done, no further problems with it. The Eotech was mounted over the bbl of a 14.5" Colt M4 which definitely got hot during Non-standard response drills.

    I switched to my backup Colt with an Aimpoint M2 after the failure of the Eotech batteries and was soon 'persuaded' by Pat to go with the Aimpoint mounted on the receiver. The small shift in weight did make a difference on speed mounts.

    I took both sights to the class because I wanted to decide on one or another. While the Eotech was faster on the close targets, overall the Aimpoint was the better sight. While that makes Lumpy right , I recommend if you can afford to try both Eotech and Aimpoint do so.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 9:49:22 AM EST
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:08:29 AM EST
    This is nice. A productive thread, not a bunch of AW sunset crap! I'd like to hear abut the knock-off sight failures, too.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:44:38 AM EST

    Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

    Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:
    There were two knock off brand optics in our group, and they sucked rocks. Nothing but complaints about them as far as I could tell.



    Oh, do tell...



    One was a little square window that mounted on the carry handle. I think he said it was a hakko, but I didn't recognize it (it was not an EOTech as they are much bigger, or an Oko, I think they are round). It never really zero'd during the class. The guy could shoot through irons pretty good though. A relative who was having problems with it gave it to him to see if he could get it to work. I think it was worth what he paid for it.

    The other was an red-dot with some magnification. I didn't recognize it. He was having a hell of a time zeroing the thing. He had to show up an hour early on Thursday morning before class for another re-zero because he couldn't get the thing retain a zero at 200 yards.



    One odd thing, we had a LEO with a LEO colt. The thing had a 20-30 lb trigger pull. Two instructors shot it, and both of them reached to turn off the safety after attempting to squeeze the trigger (the safety was not on). The on site smith fixed it in minutes (Cory is awesome). One more thing that makes Gunsite the best. I honestly don't know how the guy actually hit the target on Monday and Tuesday before he got it fixed.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:49:13 AM EST
    Hakko is shit made for Airsofters. Just wait till Lumpy sees this thread!
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:04:12 AM EST

    Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:

    Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

    Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:
    There were two knock off brand optics in our group, and they sucked rocks. Nothing but complaints about them as far as I could tell.



    Oh, do tell...



    One was a little square window that mounted on the carry handle. .



    Sounds like a Tasco Optima / Doctor Optic....
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:04:35 AM EST
    Great post thanks for sharing.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:06:18 AM EST
    [Last Edit: 9/14/2004 11:07:41 AM EST by Lumpy196]
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:22:09 AM EST
    anyone run this course wearing kevlar vests?

    dare i ask how much $ ?
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:43:07 AM EST

    Originally Posted By druncuncas:
    anyone run this course wearing kevlar vests?

    dare i ask how much $ ?




    No Kevlar Vests in our group.


    As for $ and schedule, see www.gunsite.com.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:48:58 AM EST
    wow sounds like a great class, I have heard great things about Pat and you just confirmed them even more
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 11:59:30 AM EST
    Gotta ask this since I'm no ammo expert but what is M855 and how do I avoid getting it as the 223 course says no.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 12:23:42 PM EST

    Originally Posted By omega-metroid:
    Gotta ask this since I'm no ammo expert but what is M855 and how do I avoid getting it as the 223 course says no.




    I believe it is either the green tips (bad for steel targets) or tracers (start big fires in dry Arizona desert). Both are bad and expensive.

    You can use the green tip for most stuff, but will need about 250 rounds of non green tip for shooting at steel targets.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 12:39:19 PM EST
    I see, thanks for that info. :D
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:05:15 PM EST
    For 223, I'd recommend you avoid M855. You won't have time to switch between green tip and whatever else you have. You don't need frangible, either, though they recommend you bring some. XM193 is cheaper, anyway.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:28:40 PM EST
    "Monty, I'd kick your ass.....if you weren't three fucking times my size!!"

    Yes, Pat!

    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 2:10:00 PM EST
    Great review. I really need to take the class one of these days.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 2:33:08 PM EST
    Thanks for sharing your experiences.

    I don't know if this was mentioned earlier or not but what rigs were most people the happiest with? By this I mean vests, chest rigs, etc. I'm sorry I don't know anything about them, just trying to learn because I think I'll need one if I ever go through a tactical carbine class myself.

    Thanks.
    Link Posted: 9/14/2004 2:46:58 PM EST
    Well, most in class had a chest rig of some sort or another. 7 out of 11. I had a drop leg pouch, as well as another student. The other 2 used belt carriers and pockets.

    I didn't use a chest rig because I didn't want to take the chance that the one I spent my money on was to small. I have size issues. Plus, I prefer to keep my torso unencumbered.

    Honestly, personal preference should dictate what LBE you should use, if you are able to choose. Obviously, if your gear is issue, your choices might be limited.

    Another personal example: I plan on using a thigh holster, next time I run through a class. I got tired of hitching up my pants, and having a pistol mag digging into your side while you are trying to shoot isn't fun.
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