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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/17/2005 12:06:19 PM EDT
I have used an Aimpoint M2 for awhile. I am going to switch back to using regular iron sight. The Aimpint sight is ok but I do not see what the big deal is. Has anyone else made the switch back?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:08:18 PM EDT
The big deal is speed, which generates increased leatahlity.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:10:58 PM EDT
i've removed the eotech from my carbine to go back with the A1 sights. i also removed the surefire and my KAC grip. i didn't like the the extra weight.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:12:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:
The big deal is speed, which generates increased leatahlity.



agreed, but one should still practice with irons.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:17:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 12:18:24 PM EDT by STLRN]

Originally Posted By netwt12:

Originally Posted By STLRN:
The big deal is speed, which generates increased leatahlity.



agreed, but one should still practice with irons.




This is what I have told many people. If you are shooting iron sights, your weapon is in the degraded mode of operation.

Iron sights are very, very, very hard to hit with on two way ranges. Beyond the close fight (at a distance sights really aren't all that important at anyway). Iron sights are not going to yield a very good hit to miss ration.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:18:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:
The big deal is speed, which generates increased leatahlity.



That is to say that barrel length increases accuracy.

Accuracy and shot placement increases lethality. A good rifleman can beat optics with iron sights (and no I am not a good rifleman so this is not a challenge). Nothing wrong with optics - they can increase TA, but so can practice with iron sights. If you are a bad shot without optics you will be a bad shot (faster) with them.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:25:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 12:27:56 PM EDT by STLRN]

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:

Originally Posted By STLRN:
The big deal is speed, which generates increased leatahlity.



That is to say that barrel length increases accuracy.

Accuracy and shot placement increases lethality. A good rifleman can beat optics with iron sights (and no I am not a good rifleman so this is not a challenge). Nothing wrong with optics - they can increase TA, but so can practice with iron sights. If you are a bad shot without optics you will be a bad shot (faster) with them.



There is a reason every Marine and Solider want an RCO/M68 CCO/ECOS (name the optic). It has to do with they are where the rubber meets the road, they actually see the effect of having the optic vice not. It is not theoretical, nor is it the rifle range or the talk of the densions of the range who will never fire a shot in anger in their life. Having and not having an optic can make the difference between life and death.

I have gone into combat with and without before, even by Marine Corps standards I am a pretty good shot and I would never go back to irons if I had the choice for a fight. Even if I wasn't issued an RCO, I would buy a sight vice going without.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:36:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 12:37:28 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:13:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 1:16:34 PM EDT by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:

Accuracy and shot placement increases lethality. A good rifleman can beat optics with iron sights (and no I am not a good rifleman so this is not a challenge). Nothing wrong with optics - they can increase TA, but so can practice with iron sights. If you are a bad shot without optics you will be a bad shot (faster) with them.



Yes, but that same rifleman will beaten by another rifleman of equal skill that's using optics.

Good optics will enhance your shooting especially when the SHTF and you're already operating in a dagraded state of performance.

Not to mention that optics like the Aimpoint/EOTech/ACOG/ShortDot will usuable in a wider variety of lighting conditions and environments where it's impossible to use irons.

Don't get me wrong I learned with irons and used them for many years but there's no comparison between irons and any of the quality optics I mentioned above.

With that being said always have a good BUIS on your carbine or rifle and do not neglect to practice with it.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:15:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 6:29:35 PM EDT by Hayseed_40]
I am not arguing that optics are stupid and do not help. I think we agree more than my original post sounded. In fact, I think they can be an excllent addition to a rifle. However, to state it is the dif between life and death is a little sensationalist - but I do agree with your view to an extent. In many cases it will - but knowing your irons will too was my point.

It is shot placement that increases letahality - not speed alone. My main criticism is not with optics but with the soldier/cicvilian/LEO who puts them on and expects a 100% score and never trains with iron sights. Uses these as a crutch. Their optics fail and they are stuck with their BUIS and forget what the little circle and post are for. My point was that optics do not make a good rifleman (and no I did not mean to infer that you stated that it did - it was just my rant).
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:53:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:

It is shot placement that increases letahality - not speed alone. My main criticism is not with optics but with the soldier/cicvilian/LEO who puts them on and expects a 100% score and never trains with iron sights.




A good troop with an optic beat the troop without everytime. Hits are faster, and better.

I agree with you that failing to train with irons is a failure as a shooter. There are too many people who get an optic to make up for their distinct, lazy, lack of training.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:15:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 8:17:14 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By netwt12:

Originally Posted By STLRN:
The big deal is speed, which generates increased leatahlity.



agreed, but one should still practice with irons.



Certainly, but with the proven reliability of optics (Aimpoint, Eotech, Trijicon, S&B, Elcan) these days iron sight practice should not take up more than 5% of your range time. Unless you are completely new to shooting. Irons should be mastered first. I did not just pull this out of my butt. I paid good money to have several highly respected instructors teach it to me. I'm talking about guys with Tier 1 Special Operations experience, recent contractor gigs in Afghanistan/Iraq, large city SWAT, Etc. These are experts worth listening too.

Leave the Aimpoint mounted; it's a performance tool that will make you a better shooter.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:39:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 8:43:32 PM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By Tyger2:
The Aimpint sight is ok but I do not see what the big deal is.



It's not certainly not a big deal, and it's always a good idea to stay practiced with your irons.

If your rifle is just for paper punching, more power to ya. However, if you ever plan on using it for SHTF or any defensive scenario, ask yourself this: How would I feel going up against someone of equal skill at ranges of 100-200 yards if they are using an Aimpoint/Eotech and I'm using my irons? Granted, this is a HIGHLY unlikely scenario, but it certainly makes a difference in 'how big a deal' it is to only use irons.

ETA: Could you imagine the military abandoning the use of satelite imagery for purely unaided visual observation in combat? Yeah, it's the same thing but to a much diffenet degree. Even a red dot provides visual aid at distances greater than 100 yards that irons simply cant accomplish.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:49:32 PM EDT

I have used an Aimpoint M2 for awhile. I am going to switch back to using regular iron sight. The Aimpint sight is ok but I do not see what the big deal is. Has anyone else made the switch back?



Your in a class by yourself. Experienced shooters who go from Irons to Red dots, stay with red dots as they increase your speed and accuracy by giving you 1 point of reference to line up as oppossed to two.

Like VA Dinger said, a good majority of the Tier 1 shooters run a red dot and for a good reason.

My self personnaly, I've ran Iron sights for many, many years and switched to a red dot about 4 years ago and never looked back. I wish I had one a Lonnnggggg time ago.

And U.S.Army rifle/carbine qualifications have gone up on the average due to the ease of shooting with a red dot.

Perhaps your skill level is not to the point where you would not benefit from the use of a red dot. it's not a slam, just the way it is sometimes..
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:41:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tyger2:
I have used an Aimpoint M2 for awhile. I am going to switch back to using regular iron sight. The Aimpint sight is ok but I do not see what the big deal is. Has anyone else made the switch back?



IMHO, the "Optic" is the main sight for Speed and Recgnition I.e., Aimpoint, ACOG, or my favorite...the EOTech.'''(after several years behind and ACOG).

Iron sights are a "Back-up" at best. What advantage do they have over an Advanced Optic?

Tack
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 1:08:03 PM EDT
I didn't like the weight and balance of my VFG, RAS II, MIAD, M68, flash hider, etc. The casings were somethign of a burden as well. Now I just run up and push the boolits into the goblins.
Seriously, what STLRN said is true: speed is lethality. The first guy to put steel on target is pretty much going to win.
Now, what you have to take into account is that STLRN's statment pretty much assumes that you are talking about a competent shooter who has trained with his weapon and optic. Accuracy is fine and speed is great but fast and accurate is better. If you take a hit first the outlook is not good.
Red dots and the like are increasing the speed with which the troop will hit the target. Train an 11 series with the M68 and you'll see his engagement times go down, and accuracy over time go up. Quickly. You've also allowed him to shoot more accurately without getting a perfect cheekweld, and maintaining a higher level of situational awareness with a greater field of view.
STLRN's statement is assuming accuracy. He's dealing with Marines that are trained. The hardware does make a difference in that (or any other) example.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 1:39:39 PM EDT
I myself, am also going to stick with Iron sights until I have regained my skills with my new Ar. Once I am satisfied that my basic skills are back on track then I will decide on what type of Optic I will put on my rifle. I do think that if you have the basics down with iron sights. the move to an optic will increase your speed and accuracy.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:29:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 3:32:49 PM EDT by BSTOCK]
Every time I go to the range I do one grouping with the BUIS. Then I go back to either the Aimpoint or EOTech equipped ARs for the rest of the day. I am surprised that no one has brought this up but with my glasses on I can see fine from about 3' to infinity. Naturally the irons are closer that that 3' so I have a hard time seeing them clearly. With the sights I am a reasonably good shot. With the irons it takes me too long to place my shots and I am not quite as accurate. My son talked me into the Aimpoint and EOTech and reminds me of it every time we go shooting.


Edited for spelling.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:50:48 PM EDT
How many train for optic failure (i.e. quick transition back to BUIS)?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:42:54 PM EDT
My few cents worth on this. Optics indeed make you faster. I have seen people of equal skill in drills while in the Navy at it, with the person optically equipped usually being better. That said, I spend more time on iron sights than I do with optics. Optics are easy...put the reticle/dot/etc. on the target and squeeze the trigger. Iron sights obviously have a bit more going for it. However, irons take a much tougher beating than optics do. I also do drill for optics failure, and sometimes wear a patch over my dominant eye since if my optic takes a hit in hostile fire, my eye might if I'm not wearing protection or my protection also breaks. Lots of things to work on.

Speed is good, but that's not as important. I've beat out many people that had optics and were supposed to be better than me. They had optics and should've been faster than me. But faster didn't mean anything, because I was behind cover better than they were. If you mind your cover and put rounds where you want them, that can sometimes make up for speed.

I train 70% iron sights, 30% optics. Don't forget other drills as well.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:22:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tyger2:
I have used an Aimpoint M2 for awhile. The Aimpint sight is ok but I do not see what the big deal is.



hrmm?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 4:28:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 8:56:23 AM EDT by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
How many train for optic failure (i.e. quick transition back to BUIS)?



Many of us do.

If we lose the red dot we also train to use the optic as an extra large ghost ring to use with the front sights and we also train to transition to our secondary weapon if the primary goes down.

If no secondary weapon is available and you are in a CQB situation and your primary goes down we also train to close in quickly and aggressively apply muzzle strikes various parts of the opponents anatomy.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:31:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
How many train for optic failure (i.e. quick transition back to BUIS)?


My ARMS 40 stays deployed (large ap up) behind an M68. It's always ready to go and I train with it up, the same way I carry it. I can switch back and forth without any problem.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:15:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 9:23:00 PM EDT by INCIRLIK]
EDIT !
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:20:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m24shooter:

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
How many train for optic failure (i.e. quick transition back to BUIS)?


My ARMS 40 stays deployed (large ap up) behind an M68. It's always ready to go and I train with it up, the same way I carry it. I can switch back and forth without any problem.



+1 BUIS always deployed. Murphys Law.

INCIRLIK

ETA: "ROT"
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:22:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 5:25:15 AM EDT by m24shooter]

Originally Posted By INCIRLIK:ETA: "ROT"


Si, viva La Constitucion de 1824!
Always good to see Texicans on the site.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:27:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:45:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
How many train for optic failure (i.e. quick transition back to BUIS)?




I would hope that everyone does both dry fire drills and live fire drills with this.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 9:09:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 9:16:45 AM EDT by Rocklock]
I've pretty much given up on telescopes on combat rifles (long range prcision excepted). Unless I ever have the cash to buy a 3 point mount and a 1st rate scope for my M1A

I'm 50 and wear glasses with a good apeture(sp) sight can still do pretty good . OF course building a poper posititon w/ a natual recovery on the target is VERY important , if fact if you are doing everything correctly , it can become a timing thing as much as aimming thing Pop, Pop ,Pop , amount of aimed accurate fire is considerable .

I think the follow up ability with Open sights is a big plus . Requiring the target with scope can be hard to do . Plus EVERY rifle that had a scope was top heavy and awkward to carry (further than from the car to the shooting bench .)

ETA This only applies to conventional type scope ....I know NOTHING of the "eocqcacogpointaim thingys " , maybe some day
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 9:38:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rocklock:


ETA This only applies to conventional type scope ....I know NOTHING of the "eocqcacogpointaim thingys " , maybe some day



Try the thingys. You won't want any part of not having them especially when your eyes get worst and the front sight gets a little fuzzy. Like I said in a earlier post, every time I shot I use the BUIS for one group at 50 yards and another at 120 yards. After that all shooting is done using the thingys.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 9:47:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
How many train for optic failure (i.e. quick transition back to BUIS)?




I would hope that everyone does both dry fire drills and live fire drills with this.



I think that was my point - it was arhetorical question really...
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:00:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 10:05:20 AM EDT by Rocklock]
I really dont doubt it at all . But I shoot an A1 and have heard nothing is too good mounted on the carry handle ......I did the Colt 3x scope thing . Then Cherokee cheek piece , then a weaver mount w/ decient scope nearly 20 years ago . Finally had a Custom flattop built B4 there were comercial flattops w/ a fixed 12 x Leopold ....Now that was IT .....But then I got tired of an 11.5 lbs AR .

So to do it right I need at least a new upper $400ish ? Then there is the $500-800 for a good (Thingy) . Then there's BUIS (150+)which would be an absolute MUST No Wiggle Room !

I've looked at them and they are ...weird . How it can hit a target while "not looking dirctly" through it . I kinda did like the NON Magnification model the you could look right thru and use irons . I have no idea if it was Eotech , Aimpoint , Blah and blah Then there's "Batteries!" on a rifle ??? When / if I do it I'll get my duck in row and make an informed decision .

I'll try to keep my backward uninformed prejustices out of it .


ETA I'have to get one of those stowage hand grips and stuff it full of batteries
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:02:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
How many train for optic failure (i.e. quick transition back to BUIS)?




I would hope that everyone does both dry fire drills and live fire drills with this.



I think that was my point - it was arhetorical question really...



People need a paradigm shift, the range is the range and most of what is taught there not applicable to combat.

Iron sight are a back up, and do a poor job at that, for a reflex/aimpoint/holographic type or ACOG for any other purpose than on a range. They really are only good at ranges in which sight are of minimal need.

There is a reason that allot of rounds are shot in combat that never make contact with the enemy when they are aimed at them.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:17:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:23:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rocklock:I'm 50 and wear glasses with a good apeture(sp) sight can still do pretty good . OF course building a poper posititon w/ a natual recovery on the target is VERY important , if fact if you are doing everything correctly , it can become a timing thing as much as aimming thing Pop, Pop ,Pop , amount of aimed accurate fire is considerable .


That's the beauty of the Aimpoint/EOThingy/Reflex. You don't have to have a consistent or even proper position. As long as you can see the red dot and put it on the target. And that happens rather quickly after your familiar with the sight. And it will be faster than iron sights and taking a proper position.


I think the follow up ability with Open sights is a big plus . Requiring the target with scope can be hard to do . Plus EVERY rifle that had a scope was top heavy and awkward to carry (further than from the car to the shooting bench .)


Again, the beauty of the red dots. Don't have to worry about reaccquiring the target, it's still there. Weight isn't that much of an issue unless you're talking about the Lupita nightmare.


ETA This only applies to conventional type scope ....I know NOTHING of the "eocqcacogpointaim thingys " , maybe some day




I really dont doubt it at all . But I shoot an A1 and have heard nothing is too good mounted on the carry handle


Mount it on a gooseneck and it will be right in line with your irons.


So to do it right I need at least a new upper $400ish ? Then there is the $500-800 for a good (Thingy) . Then there's BUIS (150+)which would be an absolute MUST No Wiggle Room !


See above. Not $400. Even your price for the optic is a little high.


I've looked at them and they are ...weird . How it can hit a target while "not looking dirctly" through it . I kinda did like the NON Magnification model the you could look right thru and use irons . I have no idea if it was Eotech , Aimpoint , Blah and blah


That's what we are talkigna bout. Optics with irons as cowit.


Then there's "Batteries!" on a rifle ???


Battery life on Aimpoints in the tens of thousands of hours. You'll run out of ammo before batteries in all likelihood. And even if you do, that's why you have irons.


ETA I'have to get one of those stowage hand grips and stuff it full of batteries


Only if you want to.

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:24:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rocklock:
I really dont doubt it at all . But I shoot an A1 and have heard nothing is too good mounted on the carry handle ......I did the Colt 3x scope thing . Then Cherokee cheek piece , then a weaver mount w/ decient scope nearly 20 years ago . Finally had a Custom flattop built B4 there were comercial flattops w/ a fixed 12 x Leopold ....Now that was IT .....But then I got tired of an 11.5 lbs AR .

So to do it right I need at least a new upper $400ish ? Then there is the $500-800 for a good (Thingy) . Then there's BUIS (150+)which would be an absolute MUST No Wiggle Room !

I've looked at them and they are ...weird . How it can hit a target while "not looking dirctly" through it . I kinda did like the NON Magnification model the you could look right thru and use irons . I have no idea if it was Eotech , Aimpoint , Blah and blah Then there's "Batteries!" on a rifle ??? When / if I do it I'll get my duck in row and make an informed decision .

I'll try to keep my backward uninformed prejustices out of it .


ETA I'have to get one of those stowage hand grips and stuff it full of batteries



I have a Colt A2 with a Aimpoint mounted on the carry handle with a ARMS 16 mount and it is dead on. You can see the factory iron sights through the mount so it would be a great set up for you. I the new Aimpoint ML3 has a battery life of 50,000 yep 50k hours. It weighs just 7.8 ounces. It has no magnification. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:37:02 AM EDT
Thanks for the suggestion .
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:54:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
How many train for optic failure (i.e. quick transition back to BUIS)?



If your rig is setup correctly, your BUIS is right there in your optic should it go down. Mine are in the bottom third of my EOTech window.

Now, as long as I remember to keep the BUIS flipped up, I can transition in tenths of a second.

Tack
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:41:30 PM EDT
I'm going back to irons at least for now, but for reasons not previously stated. Our department is finally getting off it's collective butt and will soon allow patrol rifles in the cars. They will be issued rifles with iron sights zeroed by instructors for general use by everyone. It's not the best policy out there but at least it's putting long guns at our fingertips. Personally, I'd rather buy my own and have it set up just for me, but that's not in the cards right now.

I have been shooting an Aimpoint ML2 for the past two years and it is definitely quicker and more forgiving than irons. However, I need to be ready to use irons for serious social work and it would do me no good whatsoever to practice with a dot on my personal gun, which stays at home (for now) and then try to use irons when the SHTF on the road.

Irons for now.
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