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Posted: 4/15/2006 7:27:40 AM EST
To the AR15 community. I appeal to you all to, from whatever background you may come from, to help make a concept for a new service rifle to replace the m16/m4 that our forces are currently using. Whether you are active duty, retired, an artist, a kid who has played ghost recon, a firearm dealer, or anyone. Any CONSTRUCTIVE input would be great.

I had the idea to take the best attributes of current weapons from around the world, add in some ideas from weapons in development, and to blend them into the next service rifle for our military. So let it begin, and let any who wish to help, make a contribution. Once we have figured out a solid design, we can figure out what to do with it from there, possibly show it to the leading fire arm manufacturers to make prototypes.

Maybe I am crazy to think we can do it, but I think its worth a shot.

Some current things we need to improve on the m16 with....

Better stopping power.
Reliability.
Less Maintenance.
More options (caliber, accessories)
Reduce size but not effectiveness, for use in urban combat and mounted combat (from inside vehicles).

I had some ideas on how to do this, but I am no engineer nor am I a designer, so I was hoping someone could come forward with those skills to help out.

I think it would be worthwhile to look into making a bullpup design to shorten the overall length of the weapon without sacrificing barrel length. Also a well balanced bullpup design is easier to handle and aim quickly with, more ergonomic.

To solve stopping power problems I suggest this rifle use the 6.5mm grendel, a round that has good power and range and accuracy. This would allow the weapon to also be effective as a medium range sniping weapon for designated marksmen with an ACOG sight, which is now issue item for marines.

Reliability can be improved by switching from the direct gas system to a piston system.

Being able to quickly change barrels for different calibers would be good, but since the 6.5mm grendel is such a well rounded cartridge, it wouldnt be neccesary.

Accessories are great, allowing troops to swap out equipment for whichever mission they will be heading into. I think an integral rail system is needed. The entire handgaurd and the top of the weapon should have rails as standard.

The bullpup design would also make the weapon shorter and more suited for urban and mounted use. I have a basic drawing of what I am thinking of, but it sucks and I dont have a scanner at the moment. Any ideas? I am looking for constructive criticism, not flames.


Link Posted: 4/15/2006 8:55:36 AM EST
sounds like the XCR idea in 6.8
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:00:29 AM EST
Any link for that? Ive never heard of it, but I still think the 6.5mm grendel is a superior round from everything I have read that compares the two.

Ill look into that one though.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:07:29 AM EST
I just checked out the XCR. It looks like a good weapon, but I think my idea would be a better rifle, but just slightly. I think the Bull pup design has the benefits of being able to have a smaller package, but keep a longer barrel. Other than that, the XCR looks great. Chamber it to 6.5mm and make it a bull pup design and I would be happy to carry it off into war.

Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:17:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2006 9:19:24 AM EST by NonConformist]
Use a Piston Driven upper in 6.8 SPC like the HK 416 or even the POF

Maybe even the XCR but in 6.8 SPC
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:33:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2006 10:00:01 AM EST by operatorerror]
FAL

ETA yeah it could be considered a smartass answer but I'm serious.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:35:30 AM EST
Everyone seems to like the 6.8 alot. I dont get it. Does anyone have a link to a direct comparison between the two? I recalled seeing them compared before and the grendel beats the 6.8 in nearly every way. It just has a much better ballistic coefficient. Goes further, hits nearly the same, and is more accurate.

You guys dont like bull pup?

Link Posted: 4/15/2006 11:18:29 AM EST
nope
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 11:33:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2006 11:37:44 AM EST by Mattl]
SCAR

Info

or

TAVOR

Info

in 6.5 Grendel.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 11:37:38 AM EST
scar sucks

Link Posted: 4/15/2006 11:42:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Voltron:
Everyone seems to like the 6.8 alot. I dont get it. Does anyone have a link to a direct comparison between the two? I recalled seeing them compared before and the grendel beats the 6.8 in nearly every way. It just has a much better ballistic coefficient. Goes further, hits nearly the same, and is more accurate.

You guys dont like bull pup?




What is the name of the board you are on? When you say "Replace the M4/M-16" dont expect much love, the accessory queens get a little touchy.

I myself like AKs.

Whats wrong with the SCAR?

This in 6.5 would be The SHIT for a squad auto.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 12:36:50 PM EST
The SCAR is a good weapon, in many ways over the current service rifle. But it just looks so boxy, and the folder stock seems like crap compared to adjustable stocks we already have. With the SCAR it is either full length, or no length, which I dont like. Also, it is not a bull pup rifle, meaning some added length and little more weight.

Lets say we got away from the die hard stuff like going to a bull pup rifle like alot of the new weapons are. Its not our traditional design, but I cant see why we wouldnt go to it if it makes the weapon smaller, weigh less, and have longer barrel lengths without making the weapon difficult in close up/mounted situations.

I think if the major companies put some effort into making a bull pup design with the 6.5mm wonder round, and integral rails, and gas piston design, with interchangable barrel sizes, you would have an amazing weapon. Lets just for shits and giggles, throwing traditional American designs out the window, design a great bull pup weapon and see that it can perform just as well as anything else, but in a smaller and lighter package.

Link Posted: 4/15/2006 12:43:51 PM EST
For some silly reason I've often sided looks over function etc over and over. While the AK may be the worlds most reliable rifle, I opted with AR looks and went that route because a band I loved as a kid had M16s on their T-shirts (the Vandals).
While Bullpups are well known for many advantages, I just like the magazine before the trigger. Don't know why, and I hate it anywhere else. I like a big drooping mag too, or a beta. Oh yeah. And can you picture a bullpup with a grenade launcher on it? Man I can't even fathom anything uglier, except maybe Hillary in Victoria's Secret.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 1:04:37 PM EST
Just rechamber the M16/M4 for the 6.8 SPC with gas piston driven upper like the 416, 468, POF. I myself have a 6.8 SPC upper from Model 1 and like it very much. Now I can use it to plink at targets and shoot deer, boar, and such without going broke. As far as the 6.5 Grendal goes yes it does out perform the 6.8 SPC, retains better energy after 400 yards. The only beef I have with it is the case design and its realiability to feed in automatic fire. Also due to licensing problems the 6.5 is pretty expensive and hasn't gain much momentum. I believe to make the barrel you must pay royalties. Also factory produce ammo is twice as expensive as the 6.8 SPC. Let's remember that the 6.8 SPC was made by the soldier for the soldier. The 6.8 SPC also did not gain much momentum either but is starting to now. There are no licenseeing problems with the 6.8 SPC anyone can make the bolt and barrel without paying any royalties. As it was made at no cost to the government, basically, someone got tired of the 5.56 and big Army didn't wanna change it. So the spec ops soldier went to Remington and they help develope the 6.8 SPC for free. Let me say that again free. Yes free. Bravo Zulu to Remington, it's American companies like that who care about our troops and went out of their way that make our country great.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:34:50 AM EST
I was looking at defensereview.com and saw that the rifle I wanted to design has already been made. Steyr Aug A3

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=268889&page=5

Id like to see a rifle better than this one. Chamber this to 6.5mm and its the most effective general use service rifle in the world. Im not sure if the austrians have issued it to their troops yet, but its a fantastic rifle I would carry into action.

Link Posted: 4/18/2006 6:09:27 AM EST
Everytime I hear It's more accurate", we end up with a bullet that makes nice holes at long distances but doesn't expend it's energy on skinny, third world two legged varmits.

What are the wound/stopping effects of the 6.5 vs the 6.8?
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 6:18:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Voltron:
The SCAR is a good weapon, in many ways over the current service rifle. But it just looks so boxy, and the folder stock seems like crap compared to adjustable stocks we already have. With the SCAR it is either full length, or no length, which I dont like. Also, it is not a bull pup rifle, meaning some added length and little more weight.




The SCAR's stock adjusts for LOP and the cheekpiece adjusts up or down allowing you to get a good cheekweld whether you are using irons or a magnified optic.

The SCAR-L also shares a claimed 90% parts commonality with it's big brother, the SCAR-H.

Here's some newer pics of the SCAR-L in it's second prototype stage.









From HERE

WIZZO
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 6:30:34 AM EST
Bull pup > traditional design

Link Posted: 4/18/2006 6:52:51 AM EST
There's one glaring problem I see with bullpups that could easily keep the military from adopting it as standard issue. For left handed shooters the bullpup would eject hot brass directly into their face and that's a destraction on any field of combat. The only way I could see around it is to have it eject down, but then you're stuck with a side feed mag which would be in the way or, if you went with something along the lines of the P99's could be unreliable. Just some food for thought.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 7:01:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Voltron:
Bull pup > traditional design




Says who?

You, Mr. ARFcom-should-design-our-nation's-next-battle-rifle-because-we're-all-experts-here?

Mag changes are far quicker with an AR than any bullpup I've ever handled. Lefties are screwed unless the design ejects straight down, out the bottom, or can switch sides. It would also be rather difficult to get a good adjustable stock on a bullpup since the action is smashed to the rear of the rifle.

There are many shortcomings of the bullpup design and that's why they aren't as prolific as standard configuration rifles.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 7:10:14 AM EST
Voltron says so.

And why couldnt we design a rifle? Are we cavemen with no brains? We have plenty of examples with current rifles to draw inspiration and ideas from. We probably couldnt make a working prototype without alot of help, but basic concept could be done. I think I have the right attitude, seems no one else does though.

Also, you smell.

Link Posted: 4/18/2006 3:24:58 PM EST
I think bullpups look cool but that's about it. I've been hunting with a Steyr AUG, love the rifle but it's just odd. With a full mag, it feels like it's weighing the rear down and like you have to pull down on the front vertical grip to balance the rear of the weapon upwards especially when firing it wants to rise up. And mag changes are just ate up awkward, the mag release lever is so close to you that you can't hold the weapon nearly as good as tradition design and have to reach very close to your chest. The Steyr is a great rifle and bullpup design is a great concept but it sucks or maybe I'm just not used to it, don't know. And yes, there is plenty of improvement room on the AR. For me, mainly reliability improvements to handle more crap in the firing mechanism or keep it out and a mechanism or means to keep all foreign material out of any of the moveable action components. But other than that, I don't have much complaint about the AR. And if we had a higher cal bullet, fine for field battles but considering the mout tactics our troops have to do now and our police forces, I think .556 is fine. And more weight for the avg soldier to carry around. Anyone been a 60 team and had to be the carry/feed guy, for a small fry at 145lbs when I was in, took some getting used to. Quite simply; bullpups=tacticool<practical.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 3:30:42 PM EST
you're representing what company in what capacity?
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 4:12:38 PM EST
hmm interesting, lets see, bushy XM17 thingy bit the dust, there isnt that many AUG's (there would be tons here if there was that big of an interest especially with a US company making the Rec's kinda like building a romy AK from a kit) here so tell me again about the bullpup? I wouldnt own one. the M-4 is about as good as it gets. Short light and decently balanced. I havent seen a real XCR and I am sure most people on this board hasn't either since I see a post every week about 2 more freaking weeks, I think its a great Idea and I would love to own one, but there are tons of peeps out there that have put up their cash so might be a while before you can run to the tacticool gun shop and find one at a fair price.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:13:56 PM EST
I would be cool if you had a Bullpup desigh that the receiver area funtioned like the Beretta Cx4 Storm. On the Storm you can change what side the brass ejects out of easily. If you were able to do that with a Bullpup then it would be awsome.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:15:05 PM EST
How do you shoot a bullpup left handed? The shells will eject into your chin. Not just for left handed shooters but for shooting around corners in a combat. Top ejection will cause problems with optics as well as hot brass down the back of your shirt.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:24:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By FollowMe:
I would be cool if you had a Bullpup desigh that the receiver area funtioned like the Beretta Cx4 Storm. On the Storm you can change what side the brass ejects out of easily. If you were able to do that with a Bullpup then it would be awsome.



How would you do this in a combat, Police, or self defense situation if you had to shoot around a corner on your left? No time to change over the rifle. BTW I have a Cx4, and it ejects forward of the shooter as it is not a true Bull Pup design. As opposed to the Bushy xm17 I always wanted one, until I shot it. I seemed heavy and handled poorly IMO, I still may pick one up (a local gun store has one) but more of a novelty.

Isn't the UK having or had problems with their bull pup that FN reworked?
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:32:01 PM EST
M14

Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:36:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Garandboy:
How do you shoot a bullpup left handed? The shells will eject into your chin. Not just for left handed shooters but for shooting around corners in a combat. Top ejection will cause problems with optics as well as hot brass down the back of your shirt.




bottom ejection like the P90 or FORWARD ejection like hte f2000
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 6:51:31 PM EST
Ok guys, I hate to have to use such an obvious example here, as it may insult your intelligence. But here is my main point, my strongest point. I am sure everyone will agree with me.

In halo1 and halo 2, the master chief uses a bullpup design AR. Now...I know some people here are military/LE....but youre not spartan, and youre not the UBER spartan, which is the master chief.

If he choses a bullpup rifle to fight with, then I think we should listen. After all, thats in the future, and thats where we are headed. We are become part of the future and change, or we dont change and get wtfkilled.

So if the master chief thinks the bullpup AR is the way to go, then I am with him, and all you nublets can get killed by covenant, or other enemies.


Link Posted: 4/18/2006 7:10:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/18/2006 7:11:31 PM EST by ToeBall]

Originally Posted By Voltron:
Ok guys, I hate to have to use such an obvious example here, as it may insult your intelligence. But here is my main point, my strongest point. I am sure everyone will agree with me.

In halo1 and halo 2, the master chief uses a bullpup design AR. Now...I know some people here are military/LE....but youre not spartan, and youre not the UBER spartan, which is the master chief.

If he choses a bullpup rifle to fight with, then I think we should listen. After all, thats in the future, and thats where we are headed. We are become part of the future and change, or we dont change and get wtfkilled.

So if the master chief thinks the bullpup AR is the way to go, then I am with him, and all you nublets can get killed by covenant, or other enemies.



ROTFLMAO!!!!
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 7:11:53 PM EST
I like the p90 concept- a light, almost foolproof weapon that has stopping power, and a high hit probability and almost anyone can use it. Im not advocating it as a replacement of the m-16, but perhaps a similer type of weapon in a larger caliber.

" (from world.guns.ru) The FN P90 submachine gun (SMG) was developed in the late 1980s as a defensive weapon for the troops whose primary activities does not include small arms - vehicle and tank crew members, artillery crews etc. Standart pistols and SMGs chambered for pistol rounds were proved ineffective against enemy soldiers, wearing armour (bulletproof) vests, so FN Herstal developed a new round with enhanced penetration - the SS190. This round looks like scaled downt 5.56mm NATO round and forces the pointed, steel core bullet to the 600-700 meters per second at the muzzle, thus being capable to defeat standart CRISAT helmets and armour vests at reasonable distances (50-100 meters).
The P90 is a blowback operated, selective fire weapon. It is fed from 50-rounds box magazines, made from transluscent polymer. The magazine is being located above the barrel, with the cartridges being aligned at 90 degrees to the barrel axis. Each magazine has built-in ramp that rotates cartridge to align it with the barrel prior to chambering it.
The P90 controls are completely ambidextrous, with charging handles located at the both sides of the weapon, and the safety/fire mode selector is located below the trigger. The P90 also features downward ejection of the spent cases. P90 is built in bull-pup configuration, with polymer stock, and features built-in reflex collimator sight with 1X magnification and reticle automaticaly ajustable to the light level, as well as a set of the backup open sights."

There you have a problem, and a simple and innovative solution. Thats what they need to do. Get all the hype and large companiesand their lobby money out, and talk to the men in the field about what they want in a weapon.
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 6:43:42 AM EST
Ok let’s look at reality. What are the 3 most used rifles available? 1) The AK47 Kalashnikov. 2) The M-16- M-4 3) some sort of 308 7.62x51mm Rifle M-14, FAL, etc.

So we now know that 7.62x39, 5.56x45 (.223), and 7.62x51 (308) are the 3 most available rifle cartridges on the planet. Given that, having a rifle that has the capacity to run every one of the above with minor modifications would be key.

Walla!
Click here for Image.
(sorry image too big to post in forum)

Ar15.com's own Ed Avila said "... in my humble opinion (MGI) is the most exciting product in the (06' Shot) show."

MGI Military has come up with an AR/M-16 style lower receiver that can switch out mag wells and uppers so one could use M-16 mags/ammo, AK-47 mags/ammo, and M-14 mags/ammo. Now ad a FAL mag well and you could adapt to your surroundings. Taking ammo wherever you can find it = less reliance on supply lines to supply the much-needed ammo in battle. This also solves the problem of needing more powerful or less powerful ammo. If you are walking 25+ miles do you want to haul around 300-400 rounds of .308 with you wouldn't 5.56x45 be less to carry? If you are going to shoot at trucks or cars then yes .308 or 7.62x39 would be better than 5.56x45. Granted this method means hauling around 2 extra uppers for every rifle but there is always a drawback to everything.

My main thought is why reinvent the wheel? Adapt to the most widely used calibers available across the planet.

As for an upper system then a Piston driven upper for an AR/M-16 style weapon would be key.

Walla!



Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF) already has one for AR's in 5.56x45 (.223) developing one for use with 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 shouldn’t be too much trouble. In fact if one could use AK-47 upper parts i.e. gas pistons and etc. that would mean better parts interchangeability and availability in the field.

My question is why reinvent the Battle Rifle when there are so many good proven designs and parts available across the world? Is the 6.5mm grendel round that much better than any of the above 3 rounds? Given what situation? Is it that much better to warrent trying to make 6.5mm a new standard world wide?
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 8:11:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Voltron:
Ok guys, I hate to have to use such an obvious example here, as it may insult your intelligence. But here is my main point, my strongest point. I am sure everyone will agree with me.

In halo1 and halo 2, the master chief uses a bullpup design AR. Now...I know some people here are military/LE....but youre not spartan, and youre not the UBER spartan, which is the master chief.

If he choses a bullpup rifle to fight with, then I think we should listen. After all, thats in the future, and thats where we are headed. We are become part of the future and change, or we dont change and get wtfkilled.

So if the master chief thinks the bullpup AR is the way to go, then I am with him, and all you nublets can get killed by covenant, or other enemies.




Any you are going into the Marines? Good fucking luck kid.
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 8:32:27 AM EST
The post about the halo stuff was obviously a joke, which someone else saw the humor in.

But Daubs I see your point about that weapon. The whole....if it aint broke dont fix it mentality is good in a way, but also keeps you from developing better things to use. Change isnt easy, but if you never change you will get overcome by an adversary who is willing to change and make improvements.

And yes I do believe the 6.5mm grendel is that great of a bullet, that it could replace all rifle cartridges except for the most specialized purposes, like sniping. If you compared it to 7.62mm it is about 50% less kick, 75% the power, and more accurate. A fair balance I think. And compared to the weak 5.56mm it has twice the stopping power and slightly more kick, and more effective range and accuracy. Its the perfect blend between the two most common rounds in our small arms arsenal.

I think we should switch to 6.5mm and possibly convert our light machine guns to fire this round as well. The united states has alot of say so with our allies, if we converted to 6.5mm and told them it was the best thing since sliced bread, I think they would use it too. Alot of allies such as austria with their steyr aug 3 advertise their new weapons as being able to use 6.8mm spc. Thats our round ya know, so obviously they know who runs the show. :)

6.5mm grendel is the way to go. Bull pup or not. 5.56mm is shit. 7.62 is good but not for an assault rifle. Too much recoil to really control on auto, cant carry as much, and even on semi auto rapid firing the recoil is much more than 5.56 so your reaquisition of the target is longer.

I think as far as magazines go, the 5.56mm would be 30 rounds, grendel 26 rounds, and 7.62 is 20 rounds. Grendel is perfect balance ....

Link Posted: 4/19/2006 9:23:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/19/2006 9:26:05 AM EST by want2race]
Voltron:
You want input on "new conceptual ideas" yet you have already made up your mind that the Bullpup is the holy grail of concepts. Think outside the box. Think beyond what has already been done. If you want a band aid fix, then just making changes to existing weapons is fine. To come up with something "revolutionary" will take some IQ points.

I could share some ideas, but they are not patented yet. If I happen accross the mother of all designs, I at least want to be compensated.

Hint: If your idea is immediately scoffed as impossible, you might be on the right track.

Left and right ejecting bullpup, pretty easy. Adjustable LOP, also pretty easy to do. I still don't like bullpups though.
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