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Posted: 7/4/2016 12:12:28 AM EDT
ETA (11/20/2017): New Flat Version Released!!



Our full review is up!



Franklin Armory has just released their Gen 3 BFS trigger. I got to test one hands on before the release.



Advantages over its predecessor, include:

  • A simpler design that is not restricted by existing drop-in AR-15 trigger patents
  • A lighter total pull weight of approx. 4.5 lbs (+/- .5 lbs)
  • Uses a standard hammer, making it compatible in just about any rifle that uses a standard AR-15 fire control group (.308AR/AR10, Sig MCX/MPX, blowback ARs, etc.)
  • No BUD (aka Back Up Disconnector)
  • Lower price than the ECHO (approx. $429.99 MSRP)
  • NO machining required to fit into Colt lowers (ones with standard size trigger pin holes)
  • Includes extra power carbine buffer spring, as well as two sets of trigger and hammer springs (to adjust pull weight or to help ignite hard primers)

Pre-production trigger as seen in the original release video above:



Full production trigger kit as delivered to me on 9/6/2016:



Here are the Franklin Armory Binary Firing System III Installation and Franklin Armory BFSiii Manual Patent Pending manuals in .PDF format, provided by onealphay2k - Thanks brother!

BFSiii Install video:



Franklin Armory's install video:



Franklin Armory's BFSiii video:

https://youtu.be/WROcTa5XNlw

Video from other members running their Gen3s.

Cearick running the BFSiii with his .22 upper. He also noted 100% function in a stock LWRC IC SPR (piston driver) rifle with 5.56 and .300BLK.

https://youtu.be/27sfhFn7WdQ

Cearick running the BFSiii with his .45ACP upper.

https://youtu.be/ShfYddRQtfg

Mossyrocks Sig MPX videos (suppressed and unsuppressed):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TSSck0STNw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxkcn210x8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPWMIjsgEbM

Non-member running his BFSIII:

https://youtu.be/Gv0mGatcbaU
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 1:01:53 AM EDT
[#1]
Ok, where is the order page?
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 1:22:24 AM EDT
[#2]
At 2:53 he pulled and released but only fired one shot?

So if you shoot faster than the bolt can return, it just doesn't fire?
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 1:31:47 AM EDT
[#3]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Ok, where is the order page?
View Quote
I'm guessing it will be up sometime today.
 



ETA: Here it is: http://franklin-armory.myshopify.com/collections/triggers/products/binary-firing-system-gen-iii-trigger-pack
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 10:37:12 AM EDT
[#4]
Franklin still didnt listen to our cry's for a milspec selector lever I see. Looks like a better trigger than the OG BFS though. Wonder how they got around no BUD?
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 10:37:59 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
At 2:53 he pulled and released but only fired one shot?

So if you shoot faster than the bolt can return, it just doesn't fire?
View Quote

Yes, that is a big issue the first BFS had
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 10:44:10 AM EDT
[#6]
Whatever happened to the Fostech Echo?
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 11:44:05 AM EDT
[#7]
"The clips"   for shame on you


seriously how did they do this with no BUD? I thought that was a leading factor in that the ATF wanted added to the re submit?

Link Posted: 7/4/2016 11:45:17 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Whatever happened to the Fostech Echo?
View Quote


August end of July for their release
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 12:03:00 PM EDT
[#9]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Whatever happened to the Fostech Echo?
View Quote
I'm still waiting

 
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 12:09:14 PM EDT
[#10]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



"The clips"   for shame on you
seriously how did they do this with no BUD? I thought that was a leading factor in that the ATF wanted added to the re submit?





View Quote





Clips?

 





Good question. I'll have to defer to Franklin on that one.


 



ETA: Oh, I see what you're referring to now. I meant video clips, not magazines. I may not me a smart man, but I know the difference between mags and clips. LMAO.






Link Posted: 7/4/2016 12:09:26 PM EDT
[#11]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





I'm still waiting  
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Quoted:


Whatever happened to the Fostech Echo?
I'm still waiting  





 
Same here...


 
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 12:12:55 PM EDT
[#12]
I wonder how it would work with a wolff xp hammer spring.  One of the issues I had with the original was no ability to light 7.62x39.
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 12:23:25 PM EDT
[#13]
I just ran some audio on the mag dump from 3:17.976 to 3:21.430 in your video.  If there is a full 30 rounds in your magazine, then you averaged .115 second splits or 521 RPM.  Not bad.
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 12:33:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Interesting. OST.
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 12:39:29 PM EDT
[#15]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I just ran some audio on the mag dump from 3:17.976 to 3:21.430 in your video.  If there is a full 30 rounds in your magazine, then you averaged .115 second splits or 521 RPM.  Not bad.
View Quote





 
All mags were full 30 rounders.







I was impressed with how fast it ran with the H buffer and M16 BCG. Once I get the full production unit, I plan to play with my AIM LW BCG to see if I can get higher RPMs. I looked at one of the clips in Premiere, and I thought I figured 650 RPM. It was either the first clip (where I added the slow-motion bit at the end), or the very first clip in the sequence after I quite talking. I'd have to look at them again. I think it was one of the ones where I was in the sun, not in the shooting shed.












 
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 12:54:44 PM EDT
[#16]
You definitely had some faster runs. Unfortunately the audio wasn't defined enough to see the individual peaks.  I had to look at the start and end of the magazine and average it.  



I need to pick one up sometime and see how it performs against the echo.  I was one of the complainers about the heavy trigger.  I also wanted to run mine with cheap 7.62x39 and that wasn't going to happen with the original BFS.
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 1:38:38 PM EDT
[#17]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


You definitely had some faster runs. Unfortunately the audio wasn't defined enough to see the individual peaks.  I had to look at the start and end of the magazine and average it.  



I need to pick one up sometime and see how it performs against the echo.  I was one of the complainers about the heavy trigger.  I also wanted to run mine with cheap 7.62x39 and that wasn't going to happen with the original BFS.

View Quote




 
Gotcha. It never bothered me, but the new one does seem to have a more pleasing pull, and reset; and, they are going to include the lightweight hammer and trigger springs in case you really want to drop the weight. They just recommend you don't use those with .17WSM, 7.62x39, and any other cartridge that requires a good amount of hammer inertia to set it off. I ran the light springs briefly, and had zero issues setting off ZQI 5.56 SS109 ammo.




Also, I just saw their official announcement on facebook. Looks like they are including a stronger buffer spring in the package. Sweet.






Link Posted: 7/4/2016 1:55:07 PM EDT
[#18]
this looks like a good step forward for the bfs , interesting that there is no bud.
does the gen 3 always fire on the pull without the bud being part of the trigger now ?
what i'm trying to figure out is why the price went higher
it would seem with the simpler design there is much less labor involved "building" the trigger packs and the cost of the parts themselves should be less also.
i'll be standing by for more info to come out on the gen 3 while i'm waiting for my echo to ship
 
 
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 2:03:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Clips?    

Good question. I'll have to defer to Franklin on that one.
 

ETA: Oh, I see what you're referring to now. I meant video clips, not magazines. I may not me a smart man, but I know the difference between mags and clips. LMAO.




View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
"The clips"   for shame on you


seriously how did they do this with no BUD? I thought that was a leading factor in that the ATF wanted added to the re submit?



Clips?    

Good question. I'll have to defer to Franklin on that one.
 

ETA: Oh, I see what you're referring to now. I meant video clips, not magazines. I may not me a smart man, but I know the difference between mags and clips. LMAO.





LOL okay that makes sense on "clips" but I thought good god man you should know better

Maybe FA will chime in and let us know why no BUD? and about the ATF letter which I keep asking for over and over again
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 5:12:23 PM EDT
[#20]
I've got the original Franklin Armory BFS Gen 1 (didn't know there was a Gen 2), the Fostech Echo on order, and just ordered the Gen 3.
My Gen 1 works fine with the SpringCo Orange (308) Spring and AIM lightweight bolt carrier. Maybe the others will go in 9mm or .22 ARs.
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 5:33:01 PM EDT
[#21]
What's the diff between gen 1 and 2?

Hmm, maybe I should have waited before placing an Echo preorder.

The biggest factors for me: how large the gas port has to be for a high ROF and the trigger pull quality on semi.
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 6:08:17 PM EDT
[#22]
The original BFS we all had/have is technically the Gen2. The "Gen1" was the original design that they debuted at SHOT, which didn't have the BUD.
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 7:32:16 PM EDT
[#23]
So does this model still rely on the speed of the bolt returning to battery to prevent hammer follow?

Will you ever engineer a sear system to delay the hammer release to prevent the above problem?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 8:43:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 9:29:24 PM EDT
[#25]
So are these gen 3 still good to go in california for registered AOWs?
Might be moving back there and since I cant bring NFA with me, an aow with a BFT would help smooth things.
Link Posted: 7/4/2016 9:36:30 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Gen 1 was never sold because ATF called it an MG.  Gen2 was what we went to market with last September.  Gen 3 came together very quickly as a brilliant epiphany by our Chief of Design.

It will all make sense when you see it in person, but the BUD was replaced by a positive reset feature.  In Binary mode, the trigger is pulled, and the gun fires.  If you release, the gun fires again.  If you release a slight bit further, you will get a positive reset, and you can start the cycle again.  

Here is the only down side I found with the new design, and I would rather tell you so you have the information before the BFSIII is out there.  If you pull, fire, release,fire, but don't reset, you can pull without firing but it will fire when you release again.  You can actually repeat the cycle if you chose not to reset.  Will accidentally did that a couple times in the video.  That's why he only had fire on release a few times.

We didn't add a sear trip yet until we hear back from ATF.  Our sources say that ATF will never approve a sear trip again, but we will see.  If it is legal, Fostech will have an early lead in the market, and hats off to them if they get it approved.  However, I believe Fostech is waiting for that letter and that is why some reports are claiming a possible December release.
View Quote


Gotta ask. Will it ignite 7N6? I ask because my order quantity will be either 1 or 2....I sold my unfired Gen2 and kicked myself for doing so.
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 12:39:03 AM EDT
[#27]
I think you will have to add a wolff xp hammer spring to shoot 7n6.
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 2:24:12 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So are these gen 3 still good to go in california for registered AOWs?
Might be moving back there and since I cant bring NFA with me, an aow with a BFT would help smooth things.
View Quote

I think you are screwed in California on the BFS. The way things are going there you will be lucky just to keep a pre ban registered AR.  Jerry Brown signed the bullet button ban and the mag confiscation bill. I would not doubt the next round of bills will kill the AOW thing too. Now it looks like you are going to have to have a background check for anyone that shoots your guns. California's gone full nazi on liberty. If you can stay away I would. California is a communist only state nowadays
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 4:07:01 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So are these gen 3 still good to go in california for registered AOWs?
Might be moving back there and since I cant bring NFA with me, an aow with a BFT would help smooth things.
View Quote

No devices to speed up or increase rate of fire in guns in California.  No bumpskis Atkins Gatling triggers etc etc
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 4:16:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

We didn't add a sear trip yet until we hear back from ATF.  Our sources say that ATF will never approve a sear trip again, but we will see.  If it is legal, Fostech will have an early lead in the market, and hats off to them if they get it approved.  However, I believe Fostech is waiting for that letter and that is why some reports are claiming a possible December release.
View Quote

are you saying that Fostech doesn't have the letter that they claim they have for their current preordered product?
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 7:55:29 AM EDT
[#31]
Very nice, were those long strings of slow fire because you were outrunning the rifle or not letting it reset fully?

Not gonna lie, I wish it was still the bronze color of the gen2.

Also, I'll be getting one for the MPX and maybe sell my gen2 to replace the one in my LWRC. Actually I guess I'll need 7 or 8...

Link Posted: 7/5/2016 8:06:52 AM EDT
[#32]
Nice work Franklin.
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 9:02:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
At 2:53 he pulled and released but only fired one shot?

So if you shoot faster than the bolt can return, it just doesn't fire?
View Quote


That is NOT what is happening. Most human fingers cannot move faster than the AR 15 bolt cyclic speed period. People keep saying you are out running the bolt. Unless you are faster than Jerry Miculek that is not happening. In this case the trigger is not being fully released to reset the trigger on release.
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 9:12:28 AM EDT
[#34]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Very nice, were those long strings of slow fire because you were outrunning the rifle or not letting it reset fully?



Not gonna lie, I wish it was still the bronze color of the gen2.



Also, I'll be getting one for the MPX and maybe sell my gen2 to replace the one in my LWRC. Actually I guess I'll need 7 or 8...



View Quote



The latter. I didn't notice it until I was editing the video, and just wrote it off as me and how I was running the trigger.

 



Franklin Armory actually commented on that on the last page:




"If you pull, fire, release,fire, but don't reset, you can pull without firing but it will fire when you release again. You can actually repeat the cycle if you chose not to reset. Will accidentally did that a couple times in the video. That's why he only had fire on release a few times. "




While firing, I didn't even notice the slowdown. It still felt fast to me.





Link Posted: 7/5/2016 9:21:18 AM EDT
[#35]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That is NOT what is happening. Most human fingers cannot move faster than the AR 15 bolt cyclic speed period. People keep saying you are out running the bolt. Unless you are faster than Jerry Miculek that is not happening. In this case the trigger is not being fully released to reset the trigger on release.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

At 2:53 he pulled and released but only fired one shot?



So if you shoot faster than the bolt can return, it just doesn't fire?




That is NOT what is happening. Most human fingers cannot move faster than the AR 15 bolt cyclic speed period. People keep saying you are out running the bolt. Unless you are faster than Jerry Miculek that is not happening. In this case the trigger is not being fully released to reset the trigger on release.

That is true with a standard trigger, but it can happen with a binary trigger.  Miculek does .10 splits, that equates to 1200rpm on a binary trigger.  Most M4's are cycling about 900rpm - which would be about .15 splits on a binary.  These aren't the super short reset triggers Miculek uses, so that limits it quite a bit.



 
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 9:38:59 AM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 9:49:21 AM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 10:17:31 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The latter. I didn't notice it until I was editing the video, and just wrote it off as me and how I was running the trigger.    

Franklin Armory actually commented on that on the last page:


"If you pull, fire, release,fire, but don't reset, you can pull without firing but it will fire when you release again. You can actually repeat the cycle if you chose not to reset. Will accidentally did that a couple times in the video. That's why he only had fire on release a few times. "


While firing, I didn't even notice the slowdown. It still felt fast to me.



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Very nice, were those long strings of slow fire because you were outrunning the rifle or not letting it reset fully?

Not gonna lie, I wish it was still the bronze color of the gen2.

Also, I'll be getting one for the MPX and maybe sell my gen2 to replace the one in my LWRC. Actually I guess I'll need 7 or 8...



The latter. I didn't notice it until I was editing the video, and just wrote it off as me and how I was running the trigger.    

Franklin Armory actually commented on that on the last page:


"If you pull, fire, release,fire, but don't reset, you can pull without firing but it will fire when you release again. You can actually repeat the cycle if you chose not to reset. Will accidentally did that a couple times in the video. That's why he only had fire on release a few times. "


While firing, I didn't even notice the slowdown. It still felt fast to me.





Very nice, I can't wait to give it a try.  So I'm assuming the only real issue one could have is hammer follow then.  

Link Posted: 7/5/2016 10:31:09 AM EDT
[#39]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Very nice, I can't wait to give it a try.  So I'm assuming the only real issue one could have is hammer follow then.  



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

Very nice, were those long strings of slow fire because you were outrunning the rifle or not letting it reset fully?



Not gonna lie, I wish it was still the bronze color of the gen2.



Also, I'll be getting one for the MPX and maybe sell my gen2 to replace the one in my LWRC. Actually I guess I'll need 7 or 8...







The latter. I didn't notice it until I was editing the video, and just wrote it off as me and how I was running the trigger.    



Franklin Armory actually commented on that on the last page:





"If you pull, fire, release,fire, but don't reset, you can pull without firing but it will fire when you release again. You can actually repeat the cycle if you chose not to reset. Will accidentally did that a couple times in the video. That's why he only had fire on release a few times. "





While firing, I didn't even notice the slowdown. It still felt fast to me.











Very nice, I can't wait to give it a try.  So I'm assuming the only real issue one could have is hammer follow then.  







 
Correct, and I had ZERO hammer follow with the SpringCo Red installed.


















Link Posted: 7/5/2016 10:32:47 AM EDT
[#40]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



 The 2013 letter they currently have is for Mr. Hawbaker's original design. It is dramatically different from their current design.  You can look at the patent drawings and compare it to the video release showing the sear trip and draw your own conclusions.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:



We didn't add a sear trip yet until we hear back from ATF.  Our sources say that ATF will never approve a sear trip again, but we will see.  If it is legal, Fostech will have an early lead in the market, and hats off to them if they get it approved.  However, I believe Fostech is waiting for that letter and that is why some reports are claiming a possible December release.



are you saying that Fostech doesn't have the letter that they claim they have for their current preordered product?
 The 2013 letter they currently have is for Mr. Hawbaker's original design. It is dramatically different from their current design.  You can look at the patent drawings and compare it to the video release showing the sear trip and draw your own conclusions.

IIRC Hawbakers original design has a trip interface, but it's part of the hammer, not a separate pivot point integrated into a drop in body like the echo.



 
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 10:44:11 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

  Correct, and I had ZERO hammer follow with the SpringCo Red installed.



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Very nice, were those long strings of slow fire because you were outrunning the rifle or not letting it reset fully?

Not gonna lie, I wish it was still the bronze color of the gen2.

Also, I'll be getting one for the MPX and maybe sell my gen2 to replace the one in my LWRC. Actually I guess I'll need 7 or 8...



The latter. I didn't notice it until I was editing the video, and just wrote it off as me and how I was running the trigger.    

Franklin Armory actually commented on that on the last page:


"If you pull, fire, release,fire, but don't reset, you can pull without firing but it will fire when you release again. You can actually repeat the cycle if you chose not to reset. Will accidentally did that a couple times in the video. That's why he only had fire on release a few times. "


While firing, I didn't even notice the slowdown. It still felt fast to me.





Very nice, I can't wait to give it a try.  So I'm assuming the only real issue one could have is hammer follow then.  


  Correct, and I had ZERO hammer follow with the SpringCo Red installed.





Awesome, I already have one in my LWRC.


Link Posted: 7/5/2016 11:36:38 AM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
 The 2013 letter they currently have is for Mr. Hawbaker's original design. It is dramatically different from their current design.  You can look at the patent drawings and compare it to the video release showing the sear trip and draw your own conclusions.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

We didn't add a sear trip yet until we hear back from ATF.  Our sources say that ATF will never approve a sear trip again, but we will see.  If it is legal, Fostech will have an early lead in the market, and hats off to them if they get it approved.  However, I believe Fostech is waiting for that letter and that is why some reports are claiming a possible December release.

are you saying that Fostech doesn't have the letter that they claim they have for their current preordered product?
 The 2013 letter they currently have is for Mr. Hawbaker's original design. It is dramatically different from their current design.  You can look at the patent drawings and compare it to the video release showing the sear trip and draw your own conclusions.

The 800 lb gorilla in the room is the Franklin Armory ATF letter? My not release it?
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 11:49:28 AM EDT
[#43]
So what's the total trigger travel length?
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 11:54:36 AM EDT
[#44]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





The 800 lb gorilla in the room is the Franklin Armory ATF letter? My not release it?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:



We didn't add a sear trip yet until we hear back from ATF.  Our sources say that ATF will never approve a sear trip again, but we will see.  If it is legal, Fostech will have an early lead in the market, and hats off to them if they get it approved.  However, I believe Fostech is waiting for that letter and that is why some reports are claiming a possible December release.



are you saying that Fostech doesn't have the letter that they claim they have for their current preordered product?
 The 2013 letter they currently have is for Mr. Hawbaker's original design. It is dramatically different from their current design.  You can look at the patent drawings and compare it to the video release showing the sear trip and draw your own conclusions.



The 800 lb gorilla in the room is the Franklin Armory ATF letter? My not release it?
They don't have one.  They won't be getting one.  I'm sure ATF is ignoring them just like they ignored Geissele's fast trigger.



 
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 11:57:47 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That is true with a standard trigger, but it can happen with a binary trigger.  Miculek does .10 splits, that equates to 1200rpm on a binary trigger.  Most M4's are cycling about 900rpm - which would be about .15 splits on a binary.  These aren't the super short reset triggers Miculek uses, so that limits it quite a bit.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At 2:53 he pulled and released but only fired one shot?

So if you shoot faster than the bolt can return, it just doesn't fire?


That is NOT what is happening. Most human fingers cannot move faster than the AR 15 bolt cyclic speed period. People keep saying you are out running the bolt. Unless you are faster than Jerry Miculek that is not happening. In this case the trigger is not being fully released to reset the trigger on release.
That is true with a standard trigger, but it can happen with a binary trigger.  Miculek does .10 splits, that equates to 1200rpm on a binary trigger.  Most M4's are cycling about 900rpm - which would be about .15 splits on a binary.  These aren't the super short reset triggers Miculek uses, so that limits it quite a bit.
 

An M16 can be made to run 1200 RPM. At this rate the failures come from bolt bounce and not out running the bolt carrier. So my point is that Jerry running his fastest splits equates to 1200 RPM with a binary trigger. That makes my point exactly. I have full auto rifles that run reliably at 1200 RPMs. The bolt carrier has cycled and the bolt is completely locked when the hammer drops by the auto sear. So you cannot manually operate a trigger, even a binary trigger faster than the bolt can lock up. When the hammer follow occurs with a binary, it is because the disconnector failed to hold the hammer back until you release the trigger, and the hammer simply follows the bolt carrier and results in a light primer strike failure in most cases. You may get occasional primer ignition with hammer follow. In my testing these failures seam to be related to the rearward velocity of the bolt carrier. Slowing down the rearward velocity seems to stop these type of failures. Example, close to 900 RPMs with a 20" rifle gas upper, standard BCG and a RED spring with NO hammer follow failures. In this system you will get a slowing of rearward travel, and increase velocity of forward travel and no significant change in overall time to complete the bolt carrier cycle.
Link Posted: 7/5/2016 6:31:21 PM EDT
[#46]

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Quoted:



They don't have one.  They won't be getting one.  I'm sure ATF is ignoring them just like they ignored Geissele's fast trigger.

 
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Quoted:


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We didn't add a sear trip yet until we hear back from ATF.  Our sources say that ATF will never approve a sear trip again, but we will see.  If it is legal, Fostech will have an early lead in the market, and hats off to them if they get it approved.  However, I believe Fostech is waiting for that letter and that is why some reports are claiming a possible December release.



are you saying that Fostech doesn't have the letter that they claim they have for their current preordered product?
 The 2013 letter they currently have is for Mr. Hawbaker's original design. It is dramatically different from their current design.  You can look at the patent drawings and compare it to the video release showing the sear trip and draw your own conclusions.



The 800 lb gorilla in the room is the Franklin Armory ATF letter? My not release it?
They don't have one.  They won't be getting one.  I'm sure ATF is ignoring them just like they ignored Geissele's fast trigger.

 
The ATF has responded to them. Per FA's facebook page on May 20th:



"WE FINALLY GOT OUR LETTER!
After over 11 months of waiting, ATF finally replied to us regarding the BFS. They stated that our prototype was legal, and they would like to review our current production model that has a slightly different hammer contour, heat treat specification, and finish."






Link Posted: 7/5/2016 7:48:41 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The ATF has responded to them. Per FA's facebook page on May 20th:

"WE FINALLY GOT OUR LETTER!After over 11 months of waiting, ATF finally replied to us regarding the BFS. They stated that our prototype was legal, and they would like to review our current production model that has a slightly different hammer contour, heat treat specification, and finish.



View Quote



lol so after 11 months of waiting, they were told they have to wait even longer?




ugh
Link Posted: 7/6/2016 12:50:58 AM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
They don't have one.  They won't be getting one.  I'm sure ATF is ignoring them just like they ignored Geissele's fast trigger.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

We didn't add a sear trip yet until we hear back from ATF.  Our sources say that ATF will never approve a sear trip again, but we will see.  If it is legal, Fostech will have an early lead in the market, and hats off to them if they get it approved.  However, I believe Fostech is waiting for that letter and that is why some reports are claiming a possible December release.

are you saying that Fostech doesn't have the letter that they claim they have for their current preordered product?
 The 2013 letter they currently have is for Mr. Hawbaker's original design. It is dramatically different from their current design.  You can look at the patent drawings and compare it to the video release showing the sear trip and draw your own conclusions.

The 800 lb gorilla in the room is the Franklin Armory ATF letter? My not release it?
They don't have one.  They won't be getting one.  I'm sure ATF is ignoring them just like they ignored Geissele's fast trigger.
 

according to them they do have an ATF letter but.... they will not release it until they have the next ATF letter for a tweak in the design
Link Posted: 7/6/2016 8:23:35 AM EDT
[#49]
That's awesome you made it drop in.
Does fixing the backup disconnector issue pretty much eliminate any failure to fire that the gen2 was having because of the trigger?
Those 2 points were the reasons I preordered an Echo...

Any plans to make these for the CZ Scorpion Evo3?
Link Posted: 7/6/2016 10:26:51 AM EDT
[#50]
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