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Posted: 1/22/2013 12:21:21 PM EDT
All I see a light sandy color.    Am I going blind ?
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 12:24:20 PM EDT
You need to rub sand granules into your eyes, as if you were in a desert environment, once you do that it darkens considerably.
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 1:59:53 PM EDT
They are just words. FDE = Tan
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 2:12:37 PM EDT



Quoted:


They are just words. FDE = Tan


Yeah... That confused the crap out of me. Coyote Brown is much closer to what I would have thought FDE would be.

 
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 2:14:04 PM EDT
Somewhere along the line someone decided tan was dark.

It is nowhere even close, real FDE is a darker chocolate color.
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 2:40:42 PM EDT
Mmmmmmm....chocolate .....
And khaki.,. Must be an attempt to standardize the color. But 3 different manufacturers I got 3 different shades.
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 2:54:39 PM EDT
Glock's FDE is pretty dark. Most "Coyote Tan" is pretty dark.

I have some Magpul FDE, a Glock FDE, and a Condor rifle case in Coyote and they are all pretty different.
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 2:59:36 PM EDT
FDE just has a more marketable ring than "dirt".
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 3:02:34 PM EDT
Quoted:
You need to rub sand granules into your eyes, as if you were in a desert environment, once you do that it darkens considerably.


I tried this and my eyes are just constantly irritated and watering, can't see shit.
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 3:23:34 PM EDT
it gets darker as the sun goes down
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 3:28:01 PM EDT
Here's all that "FDE" together for you to compare.

Link Posted: 1/22/2013 3:30:54 PM EDT
FOL > FDE

<_<
>_>
Link Posted: 1/22/2013 3:34:35 PM EDT
FDE is a very reactive color to it's environment. If I turn my bedroom light up as far as possible it looks tan against my beige walls. If I cut the light power in half, my wall is still clearly beige but the FDE looks almost dark brown.

It also depends on the mold. Magpul's CTR and MIAD for instance have a smoother mold finish on the older models, and as such reflect more light and look lighter in color compared to their other products.

There are two MIL FDE's. One is like Magpul's, one is like what is found on the DD RIS II.

FDE is a very odd color that's constantly subject to changes in contrast. That's exactly why it was chosen though. As an owner of a tan and FDE rifle, there is a significant difference.
Link Posted: 1/23/2013 1:59:54 PM EDT
They don't mean anything.  

They mean they know nothing about color theory or logic.  

"Flat Dark Earth" as a color is actually a huge pet peeve of mine.  If I could find the asshole who first decided to call the tan/sand that is now called "flat dark earth" throughout the industry, I would fucking throttle them.  

"Flat Dark Earth" fails on multiple levels.  

The first is logic:

Earth = is a description generally taken to mean "dirt."  I don't know if you've seen dirt, lately - but it's usually brown.  Sure, sometimes it's lighter, sometimes it's darker.  "Flat Dark Earth" specifies "Dark."  This means brown.  Five year olds know this.  Apparently the "tactical" industry does not.  

Second:

"Flat" is not a description of a color at all.  "Flat" is a surface finish and a description relating to the general reflectivity of a surface.  Commonly used finishes are "Gloss," "Semi-Gloss," and "Flat," or "Matte."

In layman's terms, what this refers to is the coarseness of a surface which governs the amount of light reflected.  Coarser surfaces reflect less light because on a microscopic level there are more facets on the surface that re-direct light, causing it to be less reflective.  A perfect gloss finish means almost no surface "texture," meaning that it reflects a lot of light.  The word "flat" is a modifier for surface finishing to the color, or "hue."  

Therefore, the correct "color" is simply "Dark Earth."  "Flat" is only the finish texture.  Which is all good and well if every "FDE" item you saw was a matte finished item - but I've seen "FDE" products that were rather glossy, and often semi-gloss at best.  If it's shiny - it's not flat.  If you spray a clear coat - unless it's specified as a "Matte" or "Flat" clearcoat - it's usually a gloss or semi-gloss - which fills in all the microscopic texturing with a clear substance, smoothing out the surface, and making - not flat.  

Third, and finally - there is in fact a standard that governs colors.  Granted - artists usually don't worry about it - but it strikes me that the AR and "tactical" market is big on "standards."  We worry about "milspec," even though we are usually talking about TDP and MIL-STDs, but that's neither here nor there.  The point is - most of the companies who are making "FDE" items are also, in part, government contractors.

There exists, for government entities at least - hypothetically speaking, anyone with a CAGE code - something called FS 595B, or FED-STD 595B.  "FS" or "FED-STD" stands for "Federal Standard," in other words, it's very similar to a MIL-SPEC or MIL-STD, except it applies across the board to Government entities.  Again - we argue endlessly over who meets this MIL-SPEC or this MIL-STD, and we'd throw a shit fit if someone decided to say, "oh, fuck MIL-STD 1913," there's constant clamoring over "out of spec rails," so you'd think we'd at least give some lip service to FS 595B.  

But I digress.  

Here is one of many color charts and descriptions of the FED-STD 595B:

http://www.fed-std-595.com/FS-595-Paint-Spec.html

And another:

http://www.milspeccoating.com/Federal-Standard-595-Colors-s/41.htm#products-595

FED-STD 595B describes many colors, and they actually have specific nomenclature, that is, a generic name, as well as a number reference - a color "code" used to describe the component pigments, so every contractor can create a standardized color matched to a standardized generic name.  More on that later...  

FS 34087, Olive Drab is no less specific of a description than U.S. Carbine, 5.56MM, M4A1.  

The point is, *ALL* the colors and paints specified by the U.S. Government must be classified as FS 595 colors - it has been this way since the 1950s, after World War II, when FS 595B replaced the ANA (Army-Navy Aeronautical) color system among other things. Rather than regurgitate all of this- I'll cite from another website on the history of FS 595:

http://www.colorserver.net/articles/info_fs595_history.htm

The Federal Standard color system provide means of comparing colors visually. It has its origin in the US Military complex and is still used there as the primary source of color reference. The official name of of the standard is Federal Standard 595B - Colors Used in Government Procurement.

More importantly, FED-STD-595 is also old. Its origins reach back to World War II when a problem of providing exact color specification to an equipment subcontractor on the other side of the World became manifested itself with obvious clarity.

The solution found then was to assign a reference number (or name if you look at the contemporary British system) to specific color used, printing them on sample color chips and then distributing the chips to the interested parties. This way any paint manufacturer or paint contractor could accurately mix a requested color.

The widespread applications of the standard in the military is the reason for the prevalence of the FS 595b despite its apparent obsolescence as compared to more modern color designation systems. FS 595 has also become a de-facto standard in many non-military applications such as historical color research or the modeling industry worldwide.


Revision history

FED-STD-595
■FS 595
1 March 1956
Federal Standard 595 was originally issued as a replacement for TT-C-595 "Colors for Ready-Mixed Paint". It was a thorough revision of the latter, introducing completely new five-digit color identifications numbers in place of four-digit designators in TT-C-595.

The initial standard contained 358 colors.

Revision B (FED-STD-595B), 1989-today
■Rev B
15 Dec 1989
Introduced 30 new colors to a total of 588. Included an addendum of five colors that were previously missed in printed documentation.

■Rev B Chg 1
11 Jan 1994
Added 25 new colors to a total of 613.


So, going back to the color "codes," you can read up on how the five digit number combinations are made:

Each code is 5 digits. The first digit is 1, 2, or 3, and describes the gloss level. The second digit is 0-8, describes the predominate color grouping (it's aritrary). The last three digits represent the "approximate order of increasing reflectance," where no reflectance is black.

Some colors may be in the standard at more than one gloss level (e.g., 17038 gloss black, 27038 semigloss black, and 37038 flat black), but it's not consistent or required.

MilSpecCoating and Fed Std 595

We manufacture and sell different mil-spec coatings. Each specification has different color requirements and tolerances.

MIL-DTL-24441 details which color chip number (all semigloss) to use in some –– but not all –– formulas in the specification. For example, Formula 150, Type III says: "Use FED-STD-595 color chip number 24272. Color shall approximately match the color chip."

MIL-DTL-24607 defines 11 Fed Std 595 color codes in the specification, all semigloss. For example, "Classification. Enamel covered by this specification is chlorinated alkyd resin enamel furnished in the following colors as specified...Beach Sand, FED-STD-595 color number 22563".

MIL-PRF-24635 includes 72 Fed Std 595 color codes in the specification, but also allows the purchaser to request any Fed Std 595 color code. (This spec is the most rigorous on color matching of any coating we manufacture.)


So, now, I've already established that "Flat Dark Earth" in and of itself, is a misnomer, and the only part relevant to color or hue is "Dark Earth."

Now, "supposedly," the military has claimed that the wanted their next weapon to be "Flat Dark Earth."  Which is impossible - so they must want "Dark Earth."  I have also heard references to "USSOCOM Dark Earth," a color specified for the RIS II rail, and recognized as a darker, almost chocolate brown.  

However, looking down the FS 595B color chart for Dark Earth, yields no results. As a matter of fact, a search for the word "Earth" as a component of any FS 595B color results in:

FS 30097 - Earth Brown CAMO
FS 30099 - Earth Brown
FS 30257 - Earth Yellow
FS 31090 - Earth Red CAMO

No reference to "Dark Earth," though all the colors there are preceded by a "3," meaning they're all "flat."

I have once or twice heard that "USSOCOM Dark Earth" is FS 30118, and the colors match pretty well when you consider the difficulties in matching anodizing colors versus paints, however, FS 30118 is listed as "Field Drab Camo, ANA 617."

Honestly, I'd like to see some of the solicitations for things like the RIS II or SU-230 or SU-231 or LA-5/PEQ and AN/PEQ15 to see what specification, if any, for color they make. I doubt they are very specific, and tend to leave the exact hue to the individual manufacturers, rather than specifiying by FS595b. If there's anything more specific, I suspect it would be something along the lines of "item to be furnished in color not substantially dissimilar to paint chip FS 30118." Which could mean just about anything, the guy matching colors could be colorblind.

So, if anyone tells you that they know of the "official" or "mil spec" or "MIL-STD" FDE, please- point them in my direction, tell them to bring documentation- and let me know who made the revision, when to make flat dark earth an official color, and be able to furnish an FS 595B number and color chip.

Until then, everyone- to include government contractors, will continue to use whatever color they please, and call it whatever they want. Until there is a widely published government edict that dictates that "this is Flat Dark Earth," and furthermore, they specify that each individual contract adheres to that specific color standard, there will not be an official "Flat Dark Earth." And even then, it will apply only to items procured by the U.S. Government.

The point is, "FDE" does not appear to have an official existence per FED-STD 595B.  Neither does "Dark Earth."  So, the very use of that combination of adjectives is erroneous in and of itself.  

To top it off, whoever the hell decided that a sand or tan color was going to be called "Dark Earth" is just plain idiotic.  

However, "FDE" is so entrenched these days... it's never going to go away.  

Anyways, - off.  

I toldja it was a pet peeve.  

~Augee
Link Posted: 1/23/2013 2:47:51 PM EDT
Can I start the Black and Tan pic thread, now?

Augee, you never fail to deliver
Link Posted: 1/23/2013 4:07:50 PM EDT
Quoted:
Snip


I just wanted to say you're my hero, Augee.
That is all.
Link Posted: 1/23/2013 4:14:51 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Snip


I just wanted to say you're my hero, Augee.
That is all.


golf clap
Link Posted: 1/23/2013 8:12:52 PM EDT
Norrell's Tan and Magpul FDE

FYI:  Norrells's Flat Tan is Federal Standard 595B, color #30118.  Also known as "Dark Earth" or "Coyote Brown".

Link Posted: 1/23/2013 8:28:39 PM EDT
Military Field Drab 30118 = Commercial Flat Dark Earth.

General Dynamics and HK were using it on the XM8 long before the SCAR trials.

I don't know who coined the term "FDE", but I do remember when "sand" or "desert sand" was the in not black or green color, and was replaced almost over night by the obviously darker "FDE".
Link Posted: 1/23/2013 8:47:20 PM EDT
Quoted:
Norrell's Tan and Magpul FDE

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_64351.JPG


That lower looks AMAZING!!! I might have to jack your style.... Sorry
Link Posted: 1/23/2013 9:21:43 PM EDT
I had the same thought a few years ago.


This was my submission for what I thought FDE should have looked like.


Link Posted: 1/24/2013 12:37:19 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Norrell's Tan and Magpul FDE

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_64351.JPG


That lower looks AMAZING!!! I might have to jack your style.... Sorry


Thanks.  No problem.  Wish parts were available so I could finish this one.  I'm liking the FDE scheme.  The MolyResin is an amazing product.  Next best thing to actual hard anodizing.
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 1:27:05 AM EDT
Quoted:
Military Field Drab 30118 = Commercial Flat Dark Earth.

General Dynamics and HK were using it on the XM8 long before the SCAR trials.

I don't know who coined the term "FDE", but I do remember when "sand" or "desert sand" was the in not black or green color, and was replaced almost over night by the obviously darker "FDE".


I'm just saying - but if I were a compliance inspector looking for 30118 with color chip in one hand, and an XM8 in the other - I would be skeptical.  

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=30118

http://www.fed-std-595.com/FS-595-Paint-Spec.html

http://www.milspeccoating.com/Federal-Standard-595-Colors-s/41.htm



As I've said, I've heard FS 30118 quoted as "FDE" before, and it makes sense - but few commercial items really seem to match it very well, I'd say the DD RIS II and Gen. III ELCAN SpecterDR SU-230/PVS-C are a few good matches that stick out in my mind.  

I remember the old "tans" and "sands," and they were significantly lighter than the current flavor of "tan" described as the commercial market as "Flat Dark Earth," but I still wouldn't consider them a color I would describe as "dark."

Meh, it is what it is.  

~Augee
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 1:41:34 AM EDT
Quoted:
OD > FOL > FDE

<_<
>_>


Fixed it for ya!!!

Link Posted: 1/24/2013 1:47:43 AM EDT
Canadian Voodoo Gray?
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 1:55:11 AM EDT
A lot of people seem to be confusing soil for dirt.

Link Posted: 1/24/2013 2:16:10 AM EDT
Quoted:
A lot of people seem to be confusing soil for dirt.



"dirt," per Oxford Dictionaries, generally considered the "final word in words":

noun
[mass noun]


1 a substance, such as mud or dust, that soils someone or something:

Jo wiped the dirt off her face

•soil or earth:
Michael threw a handful of dirt on to the coffin

[as modifier]: a dirt road

•informal excrement:
a lawn covered in dog dirt

•a state or quality of uncleanliness:
the sweat and dirt of industry

2 informal information about someone’s activities or private life that could prove damaging if revealed:
is there any dirt on Desmond?

(emphasis added)

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/dirt?q=dirt

There may be specific professionally accepted distinctions between "dirt" and "soil" that I am not aware of, however, my use of the word "dirt" reflects this understanding of its meaning.  

~Augee
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 2:39:22 AM EDT
Soil is a more specific term; dirt is more generic.  What does you dictionary say about soil?  "Dirt" as a generic term can range from light tan sand, to light gray, to dark brown, to near black.

Can we agree that this is the Earth?



EDIT:  FDE example added for easy comparison purposes.

Link Posted: 1/24/2013 4:28:35 AM EDT
Quoted:
Soil is a more specific term; dirt is more generic.  What does you dictionary say about soil?  "Dirt" as a generic term can range from light tan sand, to light gray, to dark brown, to near black.

Can we agree that this is the Earth?

http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/images/VIIRS_4Jan2012_708x432.jpg

EDIT:  FDE example added for easy comparison purposes.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EP-M0C5FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


I don't recall arguing that either "Dirt" or "Earth" must necessarily be a soil-like color, nor that all forms of "Earth" must be brown.  

Commercial "FDE" would certainly fit the description of "Earth," and several forms and variations, within the FS 595B spectrum suggest that "Earth" is usually applied to a lighter color such as "Earth Yellow," or "Earth Red."  As a matter of fact, I would suggest that "Earth Yellow," or an FS 30257 or FS 30266 (interestingly enough - called "Tan, ANA 615"), would be an pretty decent description of commercial FDE, based on the "FDE" PMag that I am currently holding in my hand, rather than a potentially misleading photograph under unknown lighting conditions or saturation.  

However, I rather resent the notion that you call it "my" dictionary as if I am citing some obscure, questionably comprehensive publication - the English dictionary published by Oxford University is considered one of the foremost dictionaries of the English language, and while it is not the "only" dictionary out there, to imply by saying "what does your dictionary say about..." that the OED is not a reference worth taking seriously is just a little jarring to me, to be honest.    

Nevertheless:

...and all these are my emphasis added - with relevant sections highlighted.  Also worth noting is that I specifically took these from "British-World English," not a narrow, chauvinistic "American English" definition:

soil:
noun
[mass noun]
the upper layer of earth in which plants grow, a black or dark brown material typically consisting of a mixture of organic remains, clay, and rock particles:
blueberries need very acid soil
[count noun]:
rotary cultivators are ideal, particularly on difficult soils
the territory of a particular nation:
the stationing of US troops on Japanese soil


Then:

earth:
noun
1 (also Earth) the planet on which we live; the world:
the diversity of life on earth
the surface of the world as distinct from the sky or the sea:
the pilot brought the plane gently back to earth
the present abode of humankind, as distinct from heaven or hell:
God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven
2 [mass noun] the substance of the land surface; soil:
a layer of earth
[count noun] used in names of stable, dense, non-volatile inorganic substances, e.g. fuller’s earth:
these crayons are made with a mixture of native earths plus softeners such as China clay
literary the substance of the human body:
we now commit his body to the ground: earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust
3 [mass noun] British electrical connection to the ground, regarded as having zero electrical potential:
ensure metal fittings are electrically bonded to earth
4the underground lair of a badger or fox.
5one of the four elements in ancient and medieval philosophy and in astrology (considered essential to the nature of the signs Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn):
[as modifier]:
an earth sign


And again:

dirt:
noun
[mass noun]
1a substance, such as mud or dust, that soils someone or something:
Jo wiped the dirt off her face
soil or earth:
Michael threw a handful of dirt on to the coffin
[as modifier]:
a dirt road
informal excrement:
a lawn covered in dog dirt
a state or quality of uncleanliness:
the sweat and dirt of industry
2 informal information about someone’s activities or private life that could prove damaging if revealed:
is there any dirt on Desmond?


In other words, per one of, if not the most preeminent English dictionaries available; dirt = soil or earth, soil = earth, earth = soil, or dirt = soil or soil.  So, your statement being:

Quoted:
A lot of people seem to be confusing soil for dirt.


...translates to: "A lot of people seem to be confusing soil for [soil or soil]"?  

Again, I am neither planter, nor potter, nor farmer, or anyone else that may have a functional need to distinguish between the two, so if there is a specific distinction that those in those fields use to distinguish the two, I do not know it.  If, in that context, I have used the terms incorrectly or interchangeably, I can accept that, and please feel free to educate me of the distinction, it never hurts to learn more.  In standard, non-specific, non-technical, World English however, the two appear to be able to be used largely interchangeably.  

Nevertheless, the crux is not the difference between soil, earth, and dirt; but rather, without going in to a discussion about the subjectivity of darkness or the various methods for ascertaining and determining color value or tone, my issue is with the modifier of "Dark" added to "Earth," whether by which you mean dirt or soil, does not change the fact that commercial "Dark Earth" it is not, in my estimation, "dark."  

Applying your expansive definition of "Earth" in terms of colors, you're absolutely correct - "Earth" can refer to anything ranging from nearly white sand beaches, to deep, almost black obsidian rock.  They're all components of "the" Earth.  Rather than reaching for those extremes, however, and speaking in terms of what are generally considered "Earth tones," there is a somewhat more narrow range of different types of sands, soils, and clays, that can be safely, and fairly, in my opinion, be described as "dirt."  When using the modifier of "dark," it will usually suggest a browner color, usually evoking, if you wish "soil."  

~Augee
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 5:52:23 AM EDT
Wow.

All I'm saying is, in the range of colors of "dirt" or "earth" the color we know as "FDE" is pretty dark.  Unless you are specifically think of rich soil - which if indeed often darker - as the only possible "dirt."  It is darker than previous khaki/tan offerings, and more "earthy" than the vegatation-focused Olive Drab of old.

The name isn't as unreasonable as people are trying to make it out to be.

It's a relatively dark earthy shade with a flat finish.
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 6:03:49 AM EDT
FDE = Tan
Coyote = Tanner
Multicam = Tan and Brown and Green

I swear, we are gonna start ripping off the wives nail polish names now for colors
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 6:42:07 AM EDT
Quoted:
Wow.

All I'm saying is, in the range of colors of "dirt" or "earth" the color we know as "FDE" is pretty dark.  Unless you are specifically think of rich soil - which if indeed often darker - as the only possible "dirt."  It is darker than previous khaki/tan offerings, and more "earthy" than the vegatation-focused Olive Drab of old.

The name isn't as unreasonable as people are trying to make it out to be.

It's a relatively dark earthy shade with a flat finish.




Hey, I didn't start this, someone asked.  

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, I just don't think commercial FDE is a "dark" enough color, particularly some of the variations, like B5's "FDE":



KAC's "FDE" or "Taupe" is closer, while MagPul "FDE" is somewhat in the middle:



Compared to a Daniel Defense RIS II in contrast to MagPul (also a good example of variances in anodizing colors and how colors shift depending on the lighting):



I should also apologize and clarify - if I come off somewhat strongly on the subject:

Camouflage colors are something that's near and dear to my heart - the study of WWII aviation camouflage colors was a focus of mine in my undergraduate studies, and I wrote an undergraduate thesis that dealt with reconstructing different camouflage schemes used by different factories that produced the Fw 190D-9 fighters in order to determine from incomplete black and white photographs the approximate serial number range and factory of manufacture.  

I also study and studied English literature, however, so the OED is well nigh sacred to me.  

It's not completely random that you can whip me into a fury over camouflage colors and color specs, then you had to go and (or at least I perceived) insult OED.  

Anyways - I reckon we'll agree to disagree, no harm, no foul.  

Take care!

~Augee
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 6:55:01 AM EDT
Quoted:
Mmmmmmm....chocolate .....
And khaki.,. Must be an attempt to standardize the color. But 3 different manufacturers I got 3 different shades.


Yeah, ive noticed that as well
I just have to buy most of my stuff from the same place now to avoid it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 7:56:07 AM EDT
FDE is a joke, I never even started hearing about the color untill our military got involved in the middle east litterbox. A highly arid region. FDE doesnt match any soil i have seen other than that, a better descriptor would be Arid region earth.

Individual companies skew the color pallatte in order to make their items unique and the color proprietary to them

Link Posted: 1/24/2013 8:15:30 AM EDT
It is way to make tan sound so sexy.
Link Posted: 1/24/2013 8:29:42 AM EDT
to see them all just look a the FDE SCAR
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